Mary mother of God

[Unification]

Ecclesiastes 12:8-14King James Version (KJV)
8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.

10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.

11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.

12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

 

[Nada]

God's true name is not Jehovah. The letter "J" wasn't even invented until the 1500's. And you can thank the Roman Catholics for it.

You are incorrect again.The letter j was being used in the 1300's,14th century. Another thing,J replaced the I in some words in Latin,like the word Iesus, and some words that use the hard Y in Hebrew.
Iesus was pronounced with the same sound as j.So the j just replaced that hard I and Y.
Iesus became Jesus.Yehowah becomes Jehovah.


Google

Google

 

[Nada]

HOGWASH! Lies of Satan. This is your cult's teaching. It is not Scriptural.

Wow! Your speech speaks volumes about your true nature and character.Those are not very nice words sister.

 

[Nada]

God's true name is not Jehovah. The letter "J" wasn't even invented until the 1500's. And you can thank the Roman Catholics for it.

Just study a bit more sister.You will get there.Remember....j was used in the 1300's first.Not 1500's as you claimed.Now next time you use the same argument at least you will be correct on the date now.You can thank me for that.

 

[Nada]

There are other threads where you can debate JW doctrine. This is not it. I prefer to discuss the thread topic, so I won't be addressing your posts unless they are about the thread topic.

Thats funny because you go off topic very much, but when confronted with something that proves your point of view wrong,you dodge.I see clearly........ Another thing sister,don't address me at all.It matters not.Trust me... I will not be hurt or cry about it. Carry on if you want.Bye.....

 

[Nada]

May I ask how you worship God? What acts do you perform. What would you say constitutes worship?

Are you are practicing what you preach here? What does this have to do with Mary being the Mother of God? Nothing right? So why tell me stuff when you yourself are guilty of what you state?As you were.............

 

[lovemuffin]

I'm simply trying to make the point that it is incorrect and very misleading to call Mary the Mother of God because both the Holy Spirit and the Father are also God.

To address this again briefly, and I apologize for the repetition, the idea that it is correct to call Mary the Mother of God even though there is a distinction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit owes to the idea of the perichoresis of the persons of the Trinity as alluded to in John. The Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father. Paul refers to the Spirit of Christ. It is said that in Christ dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Referring to Mary as Theotokos symbolizes the fact that she is the mother of Jesus who is "fully God", as you put it, which means that in him is the fullness of the entire trinity.

 

[lovemuffin]

Can you explain the difference between worship and veneration? How do you see it?

it is essentially the showing of love and respect for what is holy, especially in the sense of what God has made or has done. There is a certain similarity to worship, but also a distinction. Veneration is tied to worship in that what is venerated is venerated because it is holy and it is holy because it has been made so by God, who alone is worshipped. For example if someone venerates an icon of a saint by bowing in front of it and kissing it, they are showing respect to the person that God has made holy, and worshipping God in the same action, so to speak.

The physical practices that go along with veneration and worship in orthodox practice (bows, prostrations, the sign of the cross) are also symbolically important in the sense that the incarnation is physical, resurrection is of the body, which is a temple of God, and etc. Orthodox feel that the body should also be involved in religious life, rather than just a purely mental or emotional affair.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Orthodox feel that the body should also be involved in religious life, rather than just a purely mental or emotional affair.

I like that. Beautifully explained.

 

[Wharton]

Orthodox feel that the body should also be involved in religious life, rather than just a purely mental or emotional affair.

And all five senses of the body are involved in worship during the Divine Liturgy and the Mass.

 

[Domenic]

You're right, the Bible doesn't call Mary the "mother of God" in the Scriptures.

However, when we get down to what Catholics/Orthodox actually believe about the term I don't think it's that controversial. Jesus is fully God. Mary gave birth to Jesus. Therefore, in a sense, Mary is the mother of God.

This doesn't make her the mother of God the Father, or the Holy Spirit. All it means is that Jesus, who is fully God, came through Mary and thus, once again in a sense, Mary can be called the "mother of God".

I don't use the term myself, I see it as unnecessary and as your own post demonstrates it causes unneeded division. Not to mention the Bible never calls Mary that, so I don't see why anyone really should.

EDIT: The Orthodox use the term theotokos, which literally means "God-bearer", which is far less divisive and perhaps you'd agree with that?

Mary would be the mother of God if Jesus was God...the Bible is very clear that Jesus is the son of God, and since Jesus was the first thing God created (long before Mary was born) she could not be the mother of Jesus. She was used to bring the seed of Jesus into human form. The Catholics have always said Mary was the mother of God. Matter of fact, they have said many things that are not based on anything in the Bible?

 

[Unification]

To address this again briefly, and I apologize for the repetition, the idea that it is correct to call Mary the Mother of God even though there is a distinction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit owes to the idea of the perichoresis of the persons of the Trinity as alluded to in John. The Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father. Paul refers to the Spirit of Christ. It is said that in Christ dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Referring to Mary as Theotokos symbolizes the fact that she is the mother of Jesus who is "fully God", as you put it, which means that in him is the fullness of the entire trinity.

Well said, now just understand that's all IN you.

 

[lovemuffin]

Well said, now just understand that's all IN you.

one controversial claim at a time

 

[Unification]

one controversial claim at a time

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is CHRIST IN YOU the hope of glory:


For IN HIM dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

 

[lovemuffin]

Unification: I wasn't really disagreeing with you fwiw, just making a joke. Even though all these topics inter-relate it's hard to tackle them all at once. It's possible from what I recall of your posting that there are some nuances that differ between us, of course. I think my view is summarized reasonably well here, if you are interested.

 

[Unification]

Unification: I wasn't really disagreeing with you fwiw, just making a joke. Even though all these topics inter-relate it's hard to tackle them all at once. It's possible from what I recall of your posting that there are some nuances that differ between us, of course. I think my view is summarized reasonably well here, if you are interested.

I'm absolutely interested in your views, and they are much more in line with truth than most. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing slightly, if we are truly spiritual we are humbled and can grow together, learn. The Lord reveals more and more light to an individual as we are more and more ready for it. The rest, a strong veil of the mind and delusion of their imagination, until one learns how to seek purely and properly.
Peace and many blessings to you, friend.

 

[katiemygirl]

To address this again briefly, and I apologize for the repetition, the idea that it is correct to call Mary the Mother of God even though there is a distinction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit owes to the idea of the perichoresis of the persons of the Trinity as alluded to in John. The Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father. Paul refers to the Spirit of Christ. It is said that in Christ dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Referring to Mary as Theotokos symbolizes the fact that she is the mother of Jesus who is "fully God", as you put it, which means that in him is the fullness of the entire trinity.

When anyone calls Mary the Mother of God, or any of the other titles, which have been given to her by the RCC, they go beyond what is written. The following is not Biblical.

IMMACULATE CONCEPTION -- Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. (Catechism 490-492).

PERPETUAL VIRGINITY - Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. (Catechism 496-511)

MOTHER OF THE CHURCH - Mary is the Mother of the Church. (Catechism 963, 975).

ASSUMPTION - At the end of her life, Mary was taken up (“assumed”) body and soul into Heaven. (Catechism 966, 974)

CO-MEDIATOR - Mary is the Co-Mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. (Catechism 968-970, 2677)

QUEEN OF HEAVEN - God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and earth. (Catechism 966) She is to be praised with special devotion. (Catechism 971, 2675)

Do the orthodox not see the Bible as the standard of authority in all matters of faith?
Does the Bible not have the final say in your view?

Mary, Mother of God is a title bestowed on Mary by men, not by God.

 

[katiemygirl]

Mary would be the mother of God if Jesus was God...the Bible is very clear that Jesus is the son of God, and since Jesus was the first thing God created (long before Mary was born) she could not be the mother of Jesus. She was used to bring the seed of Jesus into human form. The Catholics have always said Mary was the mother of God. Matter of fact, they have said many things that are not based on anything in the Bible?

Jesus is God. He is the creator, not the created. No Scripture says Jesus was created.

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

 

[katiemygirl]

Are you are practicing what you preach here? What does this have to do with Mary being the Mother of God? Nothing right? So why tell me stuff when you yourself are guilty of what you state?As you were.............

Mary is worshiped. That's why.

 

[katiemygirl]

it is essentially the showing of love and respect for what is holy, especially in the sense of what God has made or has done. There is a certain similarity to worship, but also a distinction. Veneration is tied to worship in that what is venerated is venerated because it is holy and it is holy because it has been made so by God, who alone is worshipped. For example if someone venerates an icon of a saint by bowing in front of it and kissing it, they are showing respect to the person that God has made holy, and worshipping God in the same action, so to speak.

The physical practices that go along with veneration and worship in orthodox practice (bows, prostrations, the sign of the cross) are also symbolically important in the sense that the incarnation is physical, resurrection is of the body, which is a temple of God, and etc. Orthodox feel that the body should also be involved in religious life, rather than just a purely mental or emotional affair.

I ask because catholics insist that they don't worship Mary. They instead claim they venerate her. And now, you have pretty much said the same thing.

Bowing before and kissing statues is worship. We don't get to define Bible words like worship to fit our theology. We let the Bible itself define what worship is. The RCC is very good about redefining Bible words in order to make them fit their theology. Mediator is a good example. Mary has been given the title co-mediator. Yet the Bible says there is ONE mediator between mankind and God, and it is Christ Jesus.

In the Hebrew-Chaldee lexicon, the predominant Hebrew word for "worship" (shachah) means: "to bow oneself down, Isa. 51:23....to sink down, to be depressed....to prostrate oneself before any one out of honour....Those who used this mode of salutation fell on their knees and touched the ground with the forehead...." (Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures, pp. 813-814). In their Greek-English lexicon, Bauer, Arndt,

The predominant Greek word for "worship" (proskuneo), like the Hebrew, was "used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground, etc.; the Persians did this in the presence of their deified king, and the Greeks before a divinity ... (fall down and) worship, do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before, do reverence to, welcome respectfully...." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, pp. 716-717).

There are numerous examples from both the Old and New Testaments of worship being given God, and they follow the definitions above in both the Hebrew and Greek lexicons.

Worship of Mary can be denied, and new definitions of worship can be given by men in order to fit their doctrines, but you can NEVER change the Bible's definition of worship, and the Bible, which is the inspired word of God, has the final say.