mary, virgin or not

[waitasec]

So your perfect loophole is that Mary walks up to the Sanhedrin and says: "Waitasec (sorry, couldn't help myself), it's not my fault. G-d did it." Yeah, that would have worked - perfectly.

the entire idea of the immaculate conception is to justify that jesus was part god...she had to be a virgin....and again i have to ask, why was joseph's genealogy significant in the narrative?

 

[Quiddity]

rape

we dont know how accurate that information is. it doesnt have the historicity to be so certain.

No, not rape. That she had sex outside of marriage.

As to it's historicity, what can I say? It's a long held understanding for us and there is documentation for it. If you disagree, that's fine.

 

[waitasec]

Imagine for a second that Mary was pregnant without Joseph even being in the picture. How would people look at that?

she would be stoned to death

Without a doubt. There is many things in the OT that couldn't possibly follow.

Thanks.

You might want to look deeper into Mary's past. It is our belief she took a vow similar to that of nuns. Joseph was simply there so she wouldn't get stoned.

then why link joseph to king david?

 

[Quiddity]

the entire idea of the immaculate conception is to justify that jesus was part god...she had to be a virgin....and again i have to ask, why was joseph's genealogy significant in the narrative?

One can't be part God with two human parents?

 

[waitasec]

One can't be part God with two human parents?

right that is exactly what i am saying as to why she had to be a virgin...
but why is joseph linked to king david if he isn't the father of jesus?

 

[cablescavenger]

that is interesting...
it's also interesting, at least to me that is, why does the genealogy of joseph hold any significance?

I am not sure what you mean? I do not know the genealogy of Joesph, so I wouldn't know of what importance that might hold.

 

[waitasec]

I am not sure what you mean? I do not know the genealogy of Joesph, so I wouldn't know of what importance that might hold.

it was through king davids lineage that the messiah would come and deliver his people...
in matthew, i think, there is a whole chapter connecting jesus to king david through joseph's ancestry

 

[ChristineES]

As far as Matthew goes, it says that Joseph was a descendant of King David. If Matthew truly wrote that Gospel, he was a tax collector and would have been educated and would have been able to get his genealogy. I also heard that Mary was also descended of David- people back then married within the family- not brothers and sisters, but cousins of cousins and so on- so that would make sense, too.

But as I said earlier- none of us knows anything for sure.

 

[Alceste]

Doubt it.....either way (virgin or not) it's something we can't prove or even disprove.

It's pretty easy to prove that sexual reproduction in humans requires the genetic contribution of two differently gendered individuals, actually. If Christians don't believe that, what's all this business about "one man, one woman"?

 

[outhouse]

As to it's historicity, what can I say? It's a long held understanding for us and there is documentation for it. If you disagree, that's fine.

theres as much historicity and documentation that she was raped by a roman guard.

And as for documentation. We are fairly certain that the unknown authors of the NT had no clue about yeshuas upbringing. its clear in the contradictions in the birth documents we have, no one really knew the real story.

this whole debate, in my mind. Is obvious. A homo sapien does not get pregnant by ghost.


ancient writers wrote about deities mating with women for a very long time. Yet somehow this legend has credibility

 

[Quiddity]

right that is exactly what i am saying as to why she had to be a virgin...
but why is joseph linked to king david if he isn't the father of jesus?

Joseph was Jesus's legal father. The legal father is on par with the real father as regards rights and duties. Bloodline? It is believed that Mary was also from the bloodline of King David and it wasn't uncommon to Mary within their own clan.

Having said that, Divinity trumps bloodline in my book. Not much into prophecies personally anyways.

 

[outhouse]

One can't be part God with two human parents?

excellent point


magic can happen no matter what circumstances lie ahead. Its easy to write around facts.

 

[Alceste]

Bare with me because I disagree with you on many fronts but consider you to be a smart cookie so when I see an error in your post I question myself before I do you and because I haven't finished my coffee yet.

Tell me, how exactly would a condom stop an immaculate conception (God intervention)?

I mean, if you are going to entertain the idea for a second.

It would be like having a discussion about magic carpets and then arguing that they can't get to Dallas in an hour (thank you Kevin James for this).

So, I can only assume you meant "conception" and not necessarily an immaculate one.

The proper use of a condom (IOW normal human sex) negates the possibility of a virgin getting pregnant. Therefore condoms are even more effective at preventing divine impregnation than they are at preventing natural impregnation.

 

[Quiddity]

excellent point


magic can happen no matter what circumstances lie ahead. Its easy to write around facts.

Magic can also happen whether someone believes in it or not. Sure, that opens the door for the easter bunny as well but if the easter bunny wants me to believe in him then he better step up his efforts.

 

[waitasec]

Joseph was Jesus's legal father. The legal father is on par with the real father as regards rights and duties. Bloodline? It is believed that Mary was also from the bloodline of King David and it wasn't uncommon to Mary within their own clan.

Having said that, Divinity trumps bloodline in my book. Not much into prophecies personally anyways.

where is it believed that mary was from the bloodline of king david?

Matthew 1

The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah

1 This is the genealogy[a] of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
<snip>
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

then why was listing joseph's genealogy so important in matthew?
was it not to set up the backdrop of the messiah?

mary was depicted to be a virgin to make jesus a god man...
yet the genealogy of joseph was significant....why?

 

[Quiddity]

The proper use of a condom (IOW normal human sex) negates the possibility of a virgin getting pregnant. Therefore condoms are even more effective at preventing divine impregnation than they are at preventing natural impregnation.

I know your being fecetious but I still don't get how you stop something divine from occuring. I need more coffee.

 

[outhouse]

Magic can also happen whether someone believes in it or not. Sure, that opens the door for the easter bunny as well but if the easter bunny wants me to believe in him then he better step up his efforts.

you make good points ill hand it to you


:bow:

 

[Quiddity]

where is it believed that mary was from the bloodline of king david?

Matthew 1

The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah

1 This is the genealogy[a] of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
<snip>
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

then why was listing joseph's genealogy so important in matthew?
was it not to set up the backdrop of the messiah?

mary was depicted to be a virgin to make jesus a god man...
yet the genealogy of joseph was significant....why?

Paul tells us that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3). Since we believe Jesus only had Mary's flesh, the rest follows.

 

[Alceste]

I know your being fecetious but I still don't get how you stop something divine from occuring. I need more coffee.

To be honest, miracles don't seem to need my help to not happen.

IMO, the story of the virgin birth is a myth that was cultivated by the early EXCl to set Jesus apart from the competition (there has never been a shortage gurus claiming to have supernatural powers about) by tying his unknown personal history in with the prophesies of the old testament. The Bible makes much more sense as a work of literature than it does as history text.

Myths about human women bearing the children if Gods are not unique to Christianity. Ask the Greeks.

 

[waitasec]

Paul tells us that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3). Since we believe Jesus only had Mary's flesh, the rest follows.

then paul didn't believe in the immaculate conception, is that what you mean?
this make sense since the gospels were written after paul's letters.

can you show me where mary is a descendent of king david?