mary, virgin or not

[Quiddity]

To be honest, miracles don't seem to need my help to not happen.

IMO, the story of the virgin birth is a myth that was cultivated by the early EXCl to set Jesus apart from the competition (there has never been a shortage gurus claiming to have supernatural powers about) by tying his unknown personal history in with the prophesies of the old testament. The Bible makes much more sense as a work of literature than it does as history text.

Myths about human women bearing the children if Gods are not unique to Christianity. Ask the Greeks.

There is more then IMO...but of course we differ in here. See for example this:

Catholic Answers

True, ordinarily. But even in the Old Testament God asked married couples to refrain from intercourse for various reasons. For example, the priests of the temple had to refrain from intimacy with their wives during the time of their service. Likewise, Moses had the Israelites abstain from intercourse as he ascended Mount Sinai (Ex. 20:15). There is a theme here of refraining from marital rights because of the presence of something very holy.

The Church Fathers knew that there was something greater than the temple in Mary’s womb, comparing it to the Eastern Gate mentioned in Ezekiel 44: "This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut." Mary had become the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament.

Now, if Uzzah was struck dead for touching the Ark (2 Sam. 6:6–8), should it be surprising that Joseph understood that Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone? The idea that Joseph assumed normal marital relations with Mary after the birth of Christ was an irreverence that even the Protestant reformers rejected.

Interestingly, according to Jewish law, if a man was betrothed to a woman and she became pregnant from another, he could never have relations with her. The man had to put her away privately or condemn her in public and put her to death. Joseph chose the more merciful option.

Then, the angel told him to lead her into the house as a wife (paralambano gunaika), but the language that describes marital relations is not used here. It was used, however, in Luke 1:35: "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you." To "overshadow" a woman was a euphemism for having a marital relationship, as was the phrase "to lay one’s power" over a woman. The Holy Spirit had espoused Mary, and she had been consecrated, set apart for God.

Also, it appears that Mary had made a vow of virginity. When the angel said that she would conceive and bear a son, she asked, "How can this be, since I do not know man?" She knew how babies were made, and she was about to be married. "How can this be?" would seem like a pretty silly question unless she had made a prior vow of virginity.

And then you have documents outside of the Bible as well. I suppose could just chuck all as myth...to each his own. Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Quiddity]

then paul didn't believe in the immaculate conception, is that what you mean?
this make sense since the gospels were written after paul's letters.

can you show me where mary is a descendent of king david?

Strictly from the bible? I won't be able to.

 

[waitasec]

Strictly from the bible? I won't be able to.

thats fine...
do you know when these claims were made...?

 

[Quiddity]

thats fine...
do you know when these claims were made...?

Very early in christian history (As early as the 100's. Last Apostle died around this time). You can find plenty of early fathers talking about this stuff.

 

[waitasec]

Very early in christian history (As early as the 100's. Last Apostle died around this time). You can find plenty of early fathers talking about this stuff.

that is interesting.
in light of the knowledge that paul's letters where written before the gospels...

 

[outhouse]

So dont you think havng a ghost mating with a women is 100% mythical in nature?

Did early cultures use this theme often?


Why dont they use them now?

 

[shanedawson]

I'm fairly certain she wasn't a virgin.

There are so many virgin or otherwise miraculous births in religion, that it becomes quite sad to see the same unimaginative, timeworn rubbish being perpetuated.

 

[outhouse]

Isaiah 7:14b

says it all.

7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel

 

[waitasec]

Why dont they use them now?

because we know better?

 

[outhouse]

because we know better?

and no need. the position has been filled.



to create a miraculous person you need a miraculous mother

 

[Quiddity]

So dont you think havng a ghost mating with a women is 100% mythical in nature?

Did early cultures use this theme often?


Why dont they use them now?

And we were having such a nice conversation. Oh well...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

IMO, the story of the virgin birth is a myth that was cultivated ... to set Jesus apart from the competition... by tying his unknown personal history in with the prophesies of the old testament.

... or by imagining prophesy where none exists.

 

[cablescavenger]

it was through king davids lineage that the messiah would come and deliver his people...
in matthew, i think, there is a whole chapter connecting jesus to king david through joseph's ancestry

aah! I see, interesting.

I switch off when I see a lineage, I don't believe half the close relationships in the bible, let alone a long line of begats.

If Joseph is not his father then I am not sure why proving his lineage would even be thought of as relevant other than to try and prove a prophecy.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

It's pretty easy to prove that sexual reproduction in humans requires the genetic contribution of two differently gendered individuals, actually. If Christians don't believe that, what's all this business about "one man, one woman"?

True in this day and time. Very difficult back then. Personally I think the story was made up....but some young village girl says she was pregnant by the "holy spirit"...yet has never been with a man then it's almost near impossible to prove her wrong unless she was examined.....We could wait a few months until she started to show and then have her examined to see if the hymen is still intact then she may have some credibility....

All we have are stories told in two gospels of such an event. Mark, the supposed earliest of the 4 gospels, is silent on the nativity event. We know that Matthew and Luke drew a lot of their material from Mark...which make me think Luke also copied Matthew and and Matthew simply made his story up.

 

[cablescavenger]

if the easter bunny wants me to believe in him then he better step up his efforts.

No problem, I am sure someone has written a book on the Easter Bunny, that should convince you it's real.

 

[Quiddity]

No problem, I am sure someone has written a book on the Easter Bunny, that should convince you it's real.

Sure, why not.

 

[cablescavenger]

and no need. the position has been filled.



to create a miraculous person you need a miraculous mother

Are you saying this is not possible? How else can you explain the huge number of birth certificates where the fathers name is not present, surely this is evidence of the divine?

 

[waitasec]

aah! I see, interesting.

I switch off when I see a lineage, I don't believe half the close relationships in the bible, let alone a long line of begats.

If Joseph is not his father then I am not sure why proving his lineage would even be thought of as relevant other than to try and prove a prophecy.

i think they just wanted to prove how jewish jesus was?

a virgin getting pregnant wasn't a good idea at the time...so in comes joseph to save the day...and look he's related to king david too!
the loop hole that has a hole no less...oops

consider the ignorant time this story came from

 

[payak]

so not only where joseph and mary married, they were also related.
this story is like a tv drama about a very disfunctional family, almost as bad as abrahams.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

so not only where joseph and mary married, they were also related.

Right ...

One night, Queen Mayadevi dreamed that a white elephant descended from heaven and entered her womb. The white elephant entering her womb indicated that on that very night she had conceived a child who was a pure and powerful being. The elephant’s descending from heaven indicated that her child came from Tu****a heaven, the Pure Land of Buddha Maitreya. Later, when she gave birth to the child, instead of experiencing pain the queen experienced a special, pure vision in which she stood holding the branch of a tree with her right hand while the gods Brahma and Indra took the child painlessly from her side. They then proceeded to honor the infant by offering him ritual ablutions. [source]

Not that's a story! :yes:

When you grow out of ridiculing Christianity, maybe we can chat about Buddhism.