Mass Assault in Cologne, Mayor blames female victims ?!

[Revoltingest]

Heaven Forbid!
I will take your advice and use extreme caution when being honest with feminists.
Tom

Yeah, honesty is a dangerous thing, especially coupled with candor.
Friendliness is a good thing.....albeit difficult at times.
I've cultivated many feminist friends.
Still, some would take a lit match to me kilt.
(I'm working me charm on them nonetheless.)

Many feminists & I have the same goals & values,
especially the category called "libertarian feminist".
(I found them on the internet a couple years ago.)

 

[Debater Slayer]

Reading between the lines, I see artful sexism in demeaning the views of males simply because of gender.

Quite frankly, I tend to be more open about discussing issues related to women's rights with women even when I severely disagree with them simply because I know that I'm not talking to someone who is speaking from an empowered vantage point simply because of his gender.

Put differently, if I'm talking about women's clothing in relation to sexual harassment and a man and a woman hold the same view that women should "cover up" to avoid the harassment, I'm more willing to debate the matter with the woman, not with the man who I'm sure is speaking from a position of power as the favored gender in a society that promotes such beliefs.

 

[prometheus11]

By the way, I notice that most of the members here who don't find any victim-blaming in the mayor's comments are men.

Pass me the next batch of shocking news, please.

What a gorgeous red herring!!

 

[MysticSang'ha]

My point is that the current way we, as a society, perceive rapists can explain why such is the case: "There is nothing that men are told in regards to handling urges for inappropriate sexual conduct and rape.".

Understand though that this is but one part of why there is rarely justice occurring when sexual assault charges are made. We dehumanize either the alleged perpetrator or the alleged survivor. We handle both parties with our own mythical notions of what sexual violence is. And we simply don't perceive sexual violence as a felony crime. We perceive it as something akin to a demon possession and throw ourselves into this fairytale world that doesn't exist.

Suddenly we fall back on emotionally-driven cultural baggage, suggesting that if we pray hard enough to the right deity, we won't be possessed by a demon.

And the rational among us can see that world for what it is. Demons are not among us. The faithful can suffer maladies regardless of their sincere level of faith. And praying to avoid possession is a hangover of archaic social mores predicated on previous majority religious interpretations.

That's what is happening here, as an analogy. Rape prevention advice given to women is an archaic tool leaning more toward bodily control and scapegoating women for crimes committed against them, and in spite of well-meaning intentions, is ineffective in actually preventing rapes from occurring.

All of us want these crimes to decrease. So let's listen to those who have actually found what DOES work, shall we?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

So it wasn't a widespread problem perhaps affecting your neighborhood as a whole. Some of my relatives had break ins in their neighborhood and the cops held a meeting advising the neighborhood what to do.

I'm sure it was victim blaming, but you'd never have thought that from the grateful stance of the home owners at that meeting. I guess they just didn't think it through like they should have.

You didn't read anything that I posted about our experience being burglarized, did you?

 

[Revoltingest]

Quite frankly, I tend to be more open about discussing issues related to women's rights with women even when I severely disagree with them simply because I know that I'm not talking to someone who is speaking from an empowered vantage point simply because of his gender.

This is the internet.
I'm no more "empowered" than anyone else here.
In actual fact, I'm less so than many (for reasons we both know).

Put differently, if I'm talking about women's clothing in relation to sexual harassment and a man and a woman hold the same view that women should "cover up" to avoid the harassment, I'm more willing to debate the matter with the woman, not with the man who I'm sure is speaking from a position of power as the favored gender in a society that promotes such beliefs.

You will notice that both men & women will reside on opposing sides of that & other issues.
So gender does not determine views & values.
While you'll find correlations, you pointed one out in the middle of a discussion wherein you state
you have the only rational view. Assuming you intended no non-sequitur, intent will be inferred.
I see it as dismissive of men....except when they agree with you....then men are OK.

 

[Revoltingest]

What a gorgeous red herring!!

Now I'm hungry.
Lunch!

 

[Debater Slayer]

What a gorgeous red herring!!

Damn. That must have struck a nerve.

 

[prometheus11]

Here are her statements that I'm basing my argument on:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...nduct-to-prevent-future-assault-a6798186.html



When such advice is given right after an assault committed by people who got close to their victims and not the opposite, yes, I think this "advice" amounts to blaming the victims. I don't know what the mayor's intentions were; I'm talking about the implications of her words in isolation of much else.

I don't see victim blaming. I see warnings for nonvictims in a timely manner: right after the assault.

As to your opinion that "it amounts to" vb, that's interpretation based on a stack of assumptions.

 

[prometheus11]

Damn. That must have struck a nerve.

Or it was a red herring.

Assume much?

 

[prometheus11]

This is the internet.
I'm no more "empowered" than anyone else here.
In actual fact, I'm less so than many (for reasons we both know).

You will notice that both men & women will reside on opposing sides of that & other issues.
So gender does not determine views & values.
While you'll find correlations, you pointed one out in the middle of a discussion wherein you state
you have the only rational view. Assuming you intended no non-sequitur, intent will be inferred.
I see it as dismissive of men....except when they agree with you....then men are OK.

Thanks for settling that matter! Seriously! Now, that's a commendable post!

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I don't see victim blaming. I see warnings for nonvictims in a timely manner: right after the assault.

I think survivors should be an important voice in the conversation. What do you think?

 

[columbus]

I'm more willing to debate the matter with the woman, not with the man who I'm sure is speaking from a position of power as the favored gender in a society that promotes such beliefs.

Perhaps this thread could be moved to the feminist DIR, where the opinions would better match the goals?
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

Thanks for settling that matter! Seriously! Now, that's a commendable post!

Are you coming on to me, fella?


Btw, I'm not objecting.

 

[Debater Slayer]

This is the internet.
I'm no more "empowered" than anyone else here.
In actual fact, I'm less so than many (for reasons we both know).

Your (general "your") "power" or lack thereof on an Internet forum doesn't determine how much power you have in your society solely based on gender.

You will notice that both men & women will reside on opposing sides of that & other issues.
So gender does not determine views & values.

Sorry, but I have seen way too many examples of men who believe something because it places them above women. Remember, I have lived my whole life so far in two conservative Muslim-majority societies.

While you'll find correlations, you pointed one out in the middle of a discussion wherein you state
you have the only rational view. Assuming you intended no non-sequitur, intent will be inferred.
I see it as dismissive of men....except when they agree with you....then men are OK.

Unless men agree that women deserve the same rights and respect as men, then yes, they should just shut up and spare everyone else the noise pollution. I don't expect them to, though. That's why activism exists to combat such voices.

 

[Revoltingest]

Perhaps this thread could be moved to the feminist DIR, where the opinions would better match the goals?
Tom

That wouldn't do.
I'd have to delete all my posts.
Can't do that once they're a day or so old.

 

[Thanda]

That's a part of it, even though there is not one cent of federal funding that pays for abortions. But the whole thing must burn because of a few abortions, and the edited video certainly didn't help, even though it's known to be heavily and carefully edited.

How can you positively say that though. I mean, do they make sure that they pay 97% of the rent with the governments money and 3% with the abortion money? Do they ensure the abortion equipment, facilities and personnel are kept separate?

I have not seen the video by the way - and I don't think I want to see it.

That part isn't really a valid comparisson, as the abortions are legal - they just don't do that many of them and they have the overall goal of reducing the need and want for abortions.

But I'm sure those who are against abortions are not against them for legal reasons. They are against them for moral reasons. Certainly in the hypothetical example I proposed, I would hope the person refusing to invest would be doing it on moral grounds rather than legal.

 

[Thanda]

That wouldn't do.
I'd have to delete all my posts.
Can't do that once they're a day or so old.

Sounds like an attempt at censorship to me!

 

[Revoltingest]

Your (general "your") "power" or lack thereof on an Internet forum doesn't determine how much power you have in your society solely based on gender.

That is true.
But since you're here on RF, dealing with other people on RF,
that is inadequate reason to be dismissive towards one gender.
(I doubt it's good reason anywhere.)

Sorry, but I have seen way too many examples of men who believe something because it places them above women. Remember, I have lived my whole life so far in two conservative Muslim-majority societies.

Since I'm not a conservative Muslim, I expect that I won't be treated as though I am.

Now, I must toot my own horn.
I was pro-choice, pro-equality, pro-bodily autonomy & pro-many other things before you were even born, ya cute young whippersnapper.
I've always been this way, even back when some of the now staunchest feminists here were thump'n their Bibles & Korans.
Never forget that it was your folk, who came around to my way'o thinking.

Unless men agree that women deserve the same rights and respect as men, then yes, they should just shut up and spare everyone else the noise pollution. I don't expect them to, though. That's why activism exists to combat such voices.

Does this mean that if you brand me a misogynist (as feminists here have),
that I must "shut up"? This would give the penchant for labeling great power.

You decry only men who don't favor equal rights & respect.
Why exclude women from your demand for silence?
Do they have some special status to criticize their sisters simply because they share a gender?

 

[columbus]

Are you coming on to me, fella?


Btw, I'm not objecting.

No, that's me. Is that kilt so hot it will burst into flames at the touch of my "match"?
Tom