Mass Assault in Cologne, Mayor blames female victims ?!

[Debater Slayer]

Please retract the lie that I have defended the mayor. I have discussed the meaning of her words. I have NEVER defended her, the person.

I'll only respond to you after that.

You have so confidently kept asserting that she wasn't guilty of victim-blaming because of what she said. Sorry, but I call it as I see it, and I see that as defending her.

Ps, I cannot believe that YOU consider yourself a mature and rational debater after your last two posts.

I trust my judgment far more than yours, so I don't really care what you think of my maturity or rationality. Too bad.

 

[prometheus11]

You have so confidently kept asserting that she wasn't guilty of victim-blaming because of what she said. Sorry, but I call it as I see it, and I see that as defending her.



I trust my judgment far more than yours, so I don't really care what you think of my maturity or rationality. Too bad.

You'll understand that I trust my judgment more than yours, and I have no doubts about a single thing I've posted in this thread. I just think your pride inhibits your reasoning. I won't express how it makes me feel towards you.

I do wish you didn't find it necessary to misrepresent my positions. But I can't help that.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You'll understand that I trust my judgment more than yours, and I have no doubts about a single thing I've posted in this thread. I just think your pride inhibits your reasoning. I won't express how it makes me feel towards you.

I do wish you didn't find it necessary to misrepresent my positions. But I can't help that.

I think that most of us trust our judgment more than others'. Nothing wrong with that per se, as far as I can see.

As for the rest of your post, I can't help that you think I'm misrepresenting you either. I think we will have to agree to disagree here.

 

[Flankerl]

I'm curious how they view the mayor's conduct code & political aspects of the attacks.
We argue a bunch here, but we only know what we see filtered thru news sources.

Yeah but such interviews would also be done by the media.

The most unfiltered stuff would be from Facebook or Twitter. But obviously only angered people would vent their anger there. And they do so.

 

[prometheus11]

I think that most of us trust our judgment more than others'. Nothing wrong with that per se, as far as I can see.

As for the rest of your post, I can't help that you think I'm misrepresenting you either. I think we will have to agree to disagree here.

So now you understand how pointless it was to tell me you trusted your own judgment over mine. Cool.

As to the rest of your post, I'll be sure to tell you that when I someday grossly misrepresent what you state.

 

[icehorse]

Yeah but such interviews would also be done by the media.

The most unfiltered stuff would be from Facebook or Twitter. But obviously only angered people would vent their anger there. And they do so.

We have a few direct quotes, correct? E.g. "code of conduct" and "...arms length...". I assumed that we could take direct quotes as solid evidence. Even yellow journalists are loathe to abuse direct quotes, correct? They might take quotes out of context, but...

So can't we use common sense and say that there are normal precautions that grown-ups take? And further, that to advise women to keep an arms length from strangers is way past the domain of normal common sense and impossible as well?

In other words, I'm not sure why there is any confusion about the mayor's intentions, it strikes me her words were clear.

 

[columbus]

In other words, I'm not sure why there is any confusion about the mayor's intentions, it strikes me her words were clear.

Me too.
"Please come to our citywide parties, but use great caution".
No blaming of victims, female or otherwise.
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

Me too.
"Please come to our citywide parties, but use great caution".
No blaming of victims, female or otherwise.
Tom

Such a general warning seems short of what would best serve safety.
Even if it's called "victim blaming" & "racist", such histrionics would be a small price to pay in exchange
for apprising women that they are especially at risk from North African & Arabic immigrants/refugees.
The warnings should describe the assaults which had already taken place.

 

[columbus]

The warnings should describe the assaults which had already taken place.

Even if that escalated the risk of causing damage to the many thousands of Muslim refugees who had no part or knowledge of the crimes?
I dunno, myself. That is a tough row to hoe. I'm glad that I am not in her shoes.
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

Even if that escalated the risk of causing damage to the many thousands of Muslim refugees who had no part or knowledge of the crimes?
I dunno, myself. That is a tough row to hoe. I'm glad that I am not in her shoes.
Tom

The damage to innocent refugees is speculative.
The damage to the women attacked is real.
I'll go with what's real, especially since it's the default standard, ie, tell the truth.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Although her advice might not have been good, this is unfair criticism. It is important to keep in the mind the context at which such a speech was given. She was not talking about "indoor rapes".

It's still the point that women hear that advice on a regular basis, and then after an attack they get to hear it some more. And not only is the advice women get before-and-after an attack, it's bad advice that doesn't even address the realities of rape.

 

[Thanda]

Yes of course.





How do you keep an arm's length distance with someone that just comes nearer?
How do you keep a group of 30 men to surround you even if you are 3 or 4 people?

And also to you, Google "Cologne Carnival" and look at some of the pictures of the sheer number of people there. It is entirely impossible to keep distance to strangers.

Besides, the arms length part, is there any other part of this advice that you feel is impractical - or more importantly, victim blaming?

 

[Thanda]

It's still the point that women hear that advice on a regular basis, and then after an attack they get to hear it some more. And not only is the advice women get before-and-after an attack, it's bad advice that doesn't even address the realities of rape.

Perhaps, but here we are discussing the Mayor of Cologne's words and whether she is guilty of victim blaming for offering advice for safety to people who will be attending an up coming carnival.

 

[Flankerl]

Besides, the arms length part, is there any other part of this advice that you feel is impractical - or more importantly, victim blaming?

Apart from everything?
The women and girls in question behaved normal. They didn't enter a conversation with the perpetrators, they didn't hug them etc etc etc etc.
The women and girls do not have to change their behaviour. Their perpetrators initiated the contact.

Lets say you stand in a queue in a perfectly normal area of town and wait. Police is nearby and so are many other people who could potentially help you.
I come up from behind and stab you. Who has to change his behaviour?


I won't accept advice about keeping a certain distance from people by someone who recently got stabbed and didn't keep a certain distance herself.

 

[Thanda]

Apart from everything?
The women and girls in question behaved normal. They didn't enter a conversation with the perpetrators, they didn't hug them etc etc etc etc.
The women and girls do not have to change their behaviour. Their perpetrators initiated the contact.

Let's get one thing straight during our discussion - she was not giving advice to the victims of the sexual assault / mobbing incident - she was giving advice about an up coming incident.

Lets say you stand in a queue in a perfectly normal area of town and wait. Police is nearby and so are many other people who could potentially help you.
I come up from behind and stab you. Who has to change his behaviour?

Well let's extend your example abit. Suppose you saw them approaching. And suppose you said nothing. My advice to you would be to call someone - the police - to come and assist you. Or to shout and raise an alarm. Which, of course, is precisely the advice the mayor gave.

I won't accept advice about keeping a certain distance from people by someone who recently got stabbed and didn't keep a certain distance herself.

Perhaps she realises her mistake.

 

[Flankerl]

Let's get one thing straight during our discussion - she was not giving advice to the victims of the sexual assault / mobbing incident - she was giving advice about an up coming incident.

So upcoming incidents will be entirely different from the last one.
That makes no sense. The tactics won't change because they simply work. And you can't beat these tactics with these advises.

Well let's extend your example abit. Suppose you saw them approaching. And suppose you said nothing. My advice to you would be to call someone - the police - to come and assist you. Or to shout and raise an alarm. Which, of course, is precisely the advice the mayor gave.

You take your phone out: Its gone, they have it now. Happened in Köln.
Shout and raise an alarm: Not going to work because they surround you entirely and between them and the police/someone willing to help is a second row of perps to block off any help
But lets just say a few police officers are nearby. What now? They are facing 10 times as many perpetrators.
Happened in Köln. Couldn't do anything. Till the reinforcements are nearby your Girlfriends Vagina is bleeding, her clothes are ripped of etc.
Her friends, if female, are in the same situation.
If you were with her you are probably lying in your blood. Don't worry they won't kick your head too often. Just enough for you to never walk again.

Such is life I guess.


Could've all been prevented by simply keeping your distance. Literally no one would have ever had to die in history if someone else would've had that genius idea.
Caesar could've grown old. Man.

 

[Thanda]

So upcoming incidents will be entirely different from the last one.
That makes no sense. The tactics won't change because they simply work. And you can't beat these tactics with these advises.

Whether they'll be entirely different is irrelevant. The point is she is not addressing the victims of the previous incident. It is you, if I remember correctly, who told us she was giving advice about the up coming carnival.

You take your phone out: Its gone, they have it now. Happened in Köln.
Shout and raise an alarm: Not going to work because they surround you entirely and between them and the police/someone willing to help is a second row of perps to block off any help
But lets just say a few police officers are nearby. What now? They are facing 10 times as many perpetrators.
Happened in Köln. Couldn't do anything. Till the reinforcements are nearby your Girlfriends Vagina is bleeding, her clothes are ripped of etc.
Her friends, if female, are in the same situation.
If you were with her you are probably lying in your blood. Don't worry they won't kick your head too often. Just enough for you to never walk again.

You can only do what is in your power. If it is not enough, then, as you said that's life. If you shouted for help and the police came but it was too late? Well that's life. You cannot prevent all evil in this world. But you can prevent some of it. The mayor was, I'm sure, advising the ladies on what she thought would help them prevent some of it. Will it work it all scenarios? No. But it will work in some.

 

[Koldo]

It's still the point that women hear that advice on a regular basis, and then after an attack they get to hear it some more. And not only is the advice women get before-and-after an attack, it's bad advice that doesn't even address the realities of rape.

In part it does. But indeed, people tend to have a misconception on who are the main perpetrators.

 

[TashaN]

How do you keep an arm's length distance with someone that just comes nearer?

How do you keep a group of 30 men to surround you even if you are 3 or 4 people?

And also to you, Google "Cologne Carnival" and look at some of the pictures of the sheer number of people there. It is entirely impossible to keep distance to strangers.

This is just a prevention measure which can work in many cases, and i don't think this is the ONLY solution to the problem since they also said they will increase police presence in similar events.

 

[Jumi]

Even if that were true, how would it be relevant?

Yes, they would be irrelevant.