Mass Assault in Cologne, Mayor blames female victims ?!

[prometheus11]

And this is where I decide that trying to reason with you is worthless and a waste of time.

Oh, I know you've convinced yourself. But the facts show (and as I said, I NEVER want to see YOU consider facts) that she didn't blame the victims. Never.

You're inferring and supposing and imagining how someone might feel about her warnings and then, based on how someone might feel , you're declaring it as "victim blaming."

You can assert that the facts are opposite of what they are, but people who care about facts can't do that.

This is not the first time I have seen an imitation of a persecution complex. I'm pretty sure it won't be the last either, unfortunately.

Just because I oppose you with facts? It doesn't take much to get you assuming, does it?

Have a nice day, and keep believing yourself.

Same to you. Remember, don't worry about facts!

 

[Debater Slayer]

I suppose a roughly comparable situation would be if I told you (this goes to those you are referring to, not you personally) that in order to avoid violence being brought upon yourself, you should keep quiet about your views of Islam. You do this, and are attacked over it anyways, and then I tell you that you need to be careful about projecting your views of Islam. Not only did you hear the advice before (and I wouldn't doubt or be surprised if you have heard it - several times), the advice is doing nothing in regards to the reasons the attack occurred, which is that the attacker felt their actions where suitable and appropriate, and instead of addressing this poor behavior and trying to chance perceptions and behaviors, we say it's all up to you to avoid being attacked.

... and to top it off, a bunch of conservative Muslims keep telling me that it is not victim-blaming to tell ex-Muslim atheists how they should act to avoid ending up like Raif Badawi and Hamza Kashgari without addressing (or focusing on) the behavior of the oppressors.

Yep, same venom, different situation.

 

[4consideration]

Here's another article on this situation. It says the police chief, Wolfgang Albers, is being sent into retirement as a result of this matter.

http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/18-asylum-seekers-linked-to-crimes-in-Cologne-at-6745056.php

 

[Revoltingest]

Suggestion.....
Let's not tell each other what the other thinks, & then criticize them for this presumption.
If we stick to the issues, we'll find we've more in common than not.
Every post is a new opportunity to be all that you can be.
(More schmaltzy platitudes available upon request.)

And before anyone else says it, I admit to being a foul tempered flame warrior.
So I'll take my advice too.

 

[icehorse]

Suggestion.....
Let's not tell each other what the other thinks, & then criticize them for this presumption.
If we stick to the issues, we'll find we've more in common than not.
Every post is a new opportunity to be all that you can be.
(More schmaltzy platitudes available upon request.)

And before anyone else says it, I admit to being a foul tempered flame warrior.
So I'll take my advice too.

Are you crazy man? No more strawmen? blasphemy!

 

[Revoltingest]

Are you crazy man? No more strawmen? blasphemy!

Worry not....no one will take it seriously.

 

[Thanda]

Consciously, I doubt she intended to. But her advice, especially giving the same advice that after an attack that is frequently given before an attack, does place blame on the victim. Even if a woman is not attacked, she still hears the same advice over and over, and woman who is attacked will hear the same advice after she is attacked. And the advice is pretty much telling a woman she is in charge of her fate, and if she is attacked she broke one of these "rules of thumbs" and she baited herself for an attack - she may as well just stay at home, except this oft-repeated advice says nothing about the reality that most rapes involve people who know each other, so a woman may as well just stay home, live alone, and have very little human contact if she wants to avoid being raped.
Rather than giving advice that everyone woman has heard at least a hundred times, the mayor should have offered reassurance that something is being done and the perpetrators will be brought to justice.

You are trying very hard to change the subject. Let me remind what the subject of this thread is:

1. Women were attacked by a group of immigrants
2. There is a carnival coming up in the same city in the near future
3. The mayor gave safety tips for those women who will be attending the up coming carnival
4. Does the mayors advice, or the mayor even giving any advice, amount to victim blaming?

Now let us establish what this thread is not about:

1. The mayor giving advice to the victims of the mass attack about what they should have done
2. Advice being given to all women about how to prevent all or even most rapes
3. Whether the mayor's advice was good / effective, whether it was given at the right time or whether it should have been given at all

 

[Thanda]

Or they could have exacerbated the situation. That is even more victim blaming, because it's saying if they would have done x, then y would not have happened, and because x was not followed, it is the victims fault, at least partially, for being attacked.

Now this is ridiculous. Are you telling me that we have no power over anything in our lives?

 

[Thanda]

I still see men saying that women who survived rape shouldn't feel offended by the mayor's comments.

No matter how you slice it, I find that downright disgraceful.

No, we're not discussing how women who have survived rape should feel. Indeed we're not discussing anyone's feelings at all. We're discussing the factual question of whether the Mayor's advice amounts to victim blaiming

 

[Thanda]

I suppose a roughly comparable situation would be if I told you (this goes to those you are referring to, not you personally) that in order to avoid violence being brought upon yourself, you should keep quiet about your views of Islam. You do this, and are attacked over it anyways, and then I tell you that you need to be careful about projecting your views of Islam. Not only did you hear the advice before (and I wouldn't doubt or be surprised if you have heard it - several times), the advice is doing nothing in regards to the reasons the attack occurred, which is that the attacker felt their actions where suitable and appropriate, and instead of addressing this poor behavior and trying to chance perceptions and behaviors, we say it's all up to you to avoid being attacked.

This would be great advice if you were in a Muslim majority community and your views on Islam were quite - let's say contrary.

 

[Jumi]

I think to recap this thread is that advice given in the wrong place and time need not be taken as offensive even if it doesn't apply to the situation or is misinformed.

 

[Koldo]

It wasn't directed at most rapes, and I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is the mayor gave women who had been sexually assaulted the same exact advice they hear all the time even before being attacked, and that it is bad advice in general to begin with.

But you have said that it is bad advice exactly because "It begins with the assumption that most rapes are randomly occurring in dark alleys involving a victim and perpetrator who are strangers to each other". If that is not arguing that the advice was directed at most rapes, I don't know what is.

 

[Koldo]

Not much is worse than being limited in defending yourself by those you rely on when you can be humiliated, violated or killed on whim by groups of criminals.

I don't suggest the same as in US, but having guns readily available to citizens in good standing and carry laws. Clearly French cases have proven that they(the criminals) can get guns despite laws already and go to a train or guesthouse full of people who don't have them.

The addition of guns to crimes is always worse.

 

[Jumi]

The addition of guns to crimes is always worse.

The criminals already have access to them as has been demonstrated. Having them against criminals would not be worse however.

 

[Koldo]

The criminals already have access to them as has been demonstrated. Having them against criminals would not be worse however.

What has been demonstrated is that some criminals have access to them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Now this is ridiculous. Are you telling me that we have no power over anything in our lives?

We certainly don't have as much power as we like to pretend we do.

This would be great advice if you were in a Muslim majority community and your views on Islam were quite - let's say contrary.

The point was he may hear such advice, and if he is attacked he may hear it again, even though the problem is not at all him but with the social mentality that made the attack thinkable, and telling him to be careful about how he expresses his thoughts on Islam is not addressing that problem.

 

[Revoltingest]

We certainly don't have as much power as we like to pretend we do.

I observe that people seldom exercise the power they have.
And this is not just with people who succumb to the culture of victimhood.

 

[Thanda]

We certainly don't have as much power as we like to pretend we do.

Well, so long as you agree there are things we can all do to be safer from all kinds of attacks - including sexual assualt.

The point was he may hear such advice, and if he is attacked he may hear it again, even though the problem is not at all him but with the social mentality that made the attack thinkable, and telling him to be careful about how he expresses his thoughts on Islam is not addressing that problem.

There are two problems. The one is the social mentality, the other is the actual attack (or any specific incident). In the long run the solution is obviously to change the social mentality. But in the short term (i.e. while the mentality still exists) there rests a responsibility with each of us to keep as safe as possible.

E.g. in South Africa right now we are experiencing a drought. Some are claiming the government ignored warnings years ago to make sure the country is prepared for a drought. But while this may be true we still, as citizens, need to face the realities that are currently prevailing. And with the drought already here we need to do what we can to minimise the impact and to ensure there will be as few victims as possible.

So likewise, no one is denying that the long term solutions to sexual assault will mainly involve government intervention. But until we reach that utopia where no one considers rape to be an acceptable thing, potential victims (including women) will need to do what they can to keep themselves safe.

 

[4consideration]

According to this article, it seems there is consideration being given for changing laws/policies for stronger consequences for people behaving in this way -- and where this criminal behavior would be counted against perpetrators who are there seeking asylum.

It appears something may be done to actually work toward protecting these women and men who have been victims of attack.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/angela-merkel-calls-for-tighter-laws-on-convicted-migrants-1452347989

 

[MysticSang'ha]

According to this article, it seems there is consideration being given for changing laws/policies for stronger consequences for people behaving in this way -- and where this criminal behavior would be counted against perpetrators who are there seeking asylum.

It appears something may be done to actually work toward protecting these women and men who have been victims of attack.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/angela-merkel-calls-for-tighter-laws-on-convicted-migrants-1452347989

This. ^^

This is actually helpful. Practical and applicable in the reduction of future assaults while addressing the crimes committed in question with justice and consequence. Well done.