Mass Assault in Cologne, Mayor blames female victims ?!

[Jumi]

Defending from a large group and avoiding them in a crowd isn't as easy as some think. Even if you're sober you need to have sharper wits than average to avoid this kind thing and preferably a couple of guns. Only guns in hands of the victims would have stopped this kind of mass attack. What the mayor should have advised if she wanted to give relevant advice is women should have guns or move in groups more than 50 to avoid this.

 

[4consideration]

So upcoming incidents will be entirely different from the last one.
That makes no sense. The tactics won't change because they simply work. And you can't beat these tactics with these advises.

I, too, think it's important for something to be done to really address this problem -- much more than giving cautionary advice that won't cover the massive extent of the problem.

I have some questions about what can really be expected from this mayor, and the extent of her power to actually do something in this situation. I must confess my ignorance of German politics at this time, so I have no idea of what she policies she has supported, or what her political leanings are -- or to what extent the position of mayor in my country is comparable to the position of mayor in Germany.

Whether or not one agrees, or disagrees with the advice given, to me the larger issue here is not a few sentence she's said, but whether or not, and to what extent, the mayor has power to take preventive measures. It appears to me this is a relatively recent problem, within the last 2 years, and seems directly related to the refugee/non-citizen population.

In Germany:

1. Is the mayor in charge of the police force that would be present at the carnival? Can she give them direct orders as to how to form a game plan for decisive response to future occurrences?

If so, I'm a lot more interested in what she is doing in that regard, than the advice she might give to women. If it is her duty, and she is empowered to take specific preventative measures, then IMO what she is going to do is more important than what she thinks other woman can do. If she does not have direct authority to take police action, or any power in the process of arresting, holding, prosecuting, and incarcerating/deporting violent criminal perpetrators, than I see the words she has spoken as merely opinion -- that of a public official -- but of not much more practical weight in reality than the opinion of posters on this thread. She may be able to offer an opinion of influence, but it seems like there may be an over-reaction to her words, unless it is a situation in which she has the power to make the call on what happens in the policing and prosecuting, and she is not doing that -- and is instead offering rather ineffective advice.

2. Does the mayor have any power over who is, or in not, allowed into the country? Does she have any say in the deportation process?

3. Has she supported special treatment of certain groups of people involved in this matter, in a way that is seen to have contributed to those people believing the law does not apply to them, and that they can get away with anything they want to because of their status, and acting in an organized and criminal way?

4. Any ideas on what she has done she should not have done, or vice versa, that may have created/contributed to this situation?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Perhaps, but here we are discussing the Mayor of Cologne's words and whether she is guilty of victim blaming for offering advice for safety to people who will be attending an up coming carnival.

Consciously, I doubt she intended to. But her advice, especially giving the same advice that after an attack that is frequently given before an attack, does place blame on the victim. Even if a woman is not attacked, she still hears the same advice over and over, and woman who is attacked will hear the same advice after she is attacked. And the advice is pretty much telling a woman she is in charge of her fate, and if she is attacked she broke one of these "rules of thumbs" and she baited herself for an attack - she may as well just stay at home, except this oft-repeated advice says nothing about the reality that most rapes involve people who know each other, so a woman may as well just stay home, live alone, and have very little human contact if she wants to avoid being raped.
Rather than giving advice that everyone woman has heard at least a hundred times, the mayor should have offered reassurance that something is being done and the perpetrators will be brought to justice.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Only guns in hands of the victims would have stopped this kind of mass attack.

Or they could have exacerbated the situation. That is even more victim blaming, because it's saying if they would have done x, then y would not have happened, and because x was not followed, it is the victims fault, at least partially, for being attacked.

 

[Jumi]

Or they could have exacerbated the situation. That is even more victim blaming, because it's saying if they would have done x, then y would not have happened, and because x was not followed, it is the victims fault, at least partially, for being attacked.

This was not victim blaming, but presenting an option to change the laws. Gun laws in Germany are strict as far as I know. If the police in Germany can't handle it they should give citizens rights to defend themselves. It would also be a deterrent to these criminals who prey on the weak. It's not as fun to them when there's a real chance for them to get killed before they traumatize someone for life.

Can you imagine something like this mass attack happening in the US in places where people carry guns?

 

[Father Heathen]

Of course offering aid and shelter to those in need is indeed the noble thing to do, but welcoming people into a country who are hostile towards its culture and defiant toward its laws is probably not a good idea. Aspiring for respect and tolerance is great, but it also has to be mutual in order to work.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In part it does. But indeed, people tend to have a misconception on who are the main perpetrators.

Which is why such advice is bad. It begins with the assumption that most rapes are randomly occurring in dark alleys involving a victim and perpetrator who are strangers to each other - that can happen, and while it sometimes does, it doesn't match the reality of the who, why, how, and where that make up the bulk majority of rape statistics.

 

[4consideration]

Of course offering aid and shelter to those in need is indeed the noble thing to do, but welcoming people into a country who are hostile towards its culture and defiant toward its laws is probably not a good idea. Aspiring for respect and tolerance is great, but it also has to be mutual in order to work.

I agree. I hope they quickly welcome, and quickly identify those that should be de-welcomed.

I think it is similar to inviting someone who needs a place to stay into one's home. If that person physically attacks one's family members, steals from the family, or in any way shows themselves to be set upon causing, harm, disharmony, destruction, etc. it is the duty of those in charge to care first for protecting their own family -- and who was once welcomed in as a guest should be removed and treated as the hostile criminal he/she has demonstrated themselves to be.

I think Germany can only continue welcoming in refugees if they have the will to make a distinction between those deserving of being welcomed in and helped, and those that will use being welcomed in and helped as an opportunity for viciously attacking those that are helping them.

 

[Koldo]

This was not victim blaming, but presenting an option to change the laws. Gun laws in Germany are strict as far as I know. If the police in Germany can't handle it they should give citizens rights to defend themselves. It would also be a deterrent to these criminals who prey on the weak. It's not as fun to them when there's a real chance for them to get killed before they traumatize someone for life.

Can you imagine something like this mass attack happening in the US in places where people carry guns?

No. But worse could happen. If guns are made easily accessible like in the US then the refugees will eventually acquire them. Expect more brutality once that happens.

 

[Koldo]

Which is why such advice is bad. It begins with the assumption that most rapes are randomly occurring in dark alleys involving a victim and perpetrator who are strangers to each other - that can happen, and while it sometimes does, it doesn't match the reality of the who, why, how, and where that make up the bulk majority of rape statistics.

But as I have said before: context.
The speech was not directed towards the bulk majority of rapes. You can't judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This was not victim blaming, but presenting an option to change the laws. Gun laws in Germany are strict as far as I know. If the police in Germany can't handle it they should give citizens rights to defend themselves. It would also be a deterrent to these criminals who prey on the weak. It's not as fun to them when there's a real chance for them to get killed before they traumatize someone for life.

Can you imagine something like this mass attack happening in the US in places where people carry guns?

And I'm pretty sure Germany doesn't want the really bad gun problems like we have in America. And even consider that in America there is a real chance for a criminal to be attacked, from a number of sources, during an attack, but they still happen anyways. And that is because self-defense - rather it is with a gun, a 2x4, fists, or anything you can reach and use during an attack - only works if you can actually defend yourself, which isn't always possible. What if one of these women had pulled out a gun, and the perpetrator took it from her? Then not only do we have someone harassing, molesting, and raping women, we have someone doing all that while holding women up with a gun.
Guns are not the guaranteed and instant source of protection and salvation, and when they are used they are only being used to thwart an attack once it has started, and they do very little, if anything, to prevent an attack before it happens.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But as I have said before: context.
The speech was not directed towards the bulk majority of rapes. You can't judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree.

It wasn't directed at most rapes, and I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is the mayor gave women who had been sexually assaulted the same exact advice they hear all the time even before being attacked, and that it is bad advice in general to begin with.

 

[prometheus11]

It wasn't directed at most rapes, and I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is the mayor gave women who had been sexually assaulted the same exact advice they hear all the time even before being attacked, and that it is bad advice in general to begin with.

The mayor was not talking to "women who had been sexually assaulted." She was talking to citizens at large.

If she were giving this advice to victims, we could INFER a sort of implied "victim blaming" even though it would not be direct victim blaming.

Victim blaming would be: "Well, if the victims last night had stayed with friends and kept an arm's length away, they wouldn't have been attacked."

The mayor did nothing of the sort.

 

[Jumi]

No. But worse could happen. If guns are made easily accessible like in the US then the refugees will eventually acquire them. Expect more brutality once that happens.

Not much is worse than being limited in defending yourself by those you rely on when you can be humiliated, violated or killed on whim by groups of criminals.

I don't suggest the same as in US, but having guns readily available to citizens in good standing and carry laws. Clearly French cases have proven that they(the criminals) can get guns despite laws already and go to a train or guesthouse full of people who don't have them.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I still see men saying that women who survived rape shouldn't feel offended by the mayor's comments.

No matter how you slice it, I find that downright disgraceful.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I still see men saying that women who survived rape shouldn't feel offended by the mayor's comments.

No matter how you slice it, I find that downright disgraceful.

I suppose a roughly comparable situation would be if I told you (this goes to those you are referring to, not you personally) that in order to avoid violence being brought upon yourself, you should keep quiet about your views of Islam. You do this, and are attacked over it anyways, and then I tell you that you need to be careful about projecting your views of Islam. Not only did you hear the advice before (and I wouldn't doubt or be surprised if you have heard it - several times), the advice is doing nothing in regards to the reasons the attack occurred, which is that the attacker felt their actions where suitable and appropriate, and instead of addressing this poor behavior and trying to chance perceptions and behaviors, we say it's all up to you to avoid being attacked.

 

[prometheus11]

I still see men saying that women who survived rape shouldn't feel offended by the mayor's comments.

No matter how you slice it, I find that downright disgraceful.

That's simply untrue. No member here had said a single word about how rape survivors should feel.

It's their right to be offended or not. It's just irrelevant since she wasn't discussing their situation at all nor blaming them or any other victim.

You DS, continually debate strawmen. You CLAIM that those you disagree with have some opinion they've not shared or have stated something they've never written and then you express moral incredulity and outrage. Despicable "debate" behavior.

 

[Debater Slayer]

That's simply untrue. No member here had said a single word about how rape survivors should feel.

So I guess this callous dismissal wasn't about how survivors should or shouldn't feel:

Is their interpretation more important than the interpretation of others? What if the survivors all happen to be mentally incompetent?

It's their right to be offended or not. It's just irrelevant since she wasn't discussing their situation at all nor blaming them or any other victim.

Keep repeating that. I'm sure you believe yourself.

You DS, continually debate strawmen. You CLAIM that those you disagree with have some opinion they've not shared or have stated something they've never written and then you express moral incredulity and outrage. Despicable "debate" behavior.

See above. The post I quoted is your own words. It is the epitome of casually dismissive, uninformed rhetoric, and I'm honoring that venom by calling it "rhetoric."

 

[prometheus11]

So I guess this callous dismissal wasn't about how survivors should or shouldn't feel:





Keep repeating that. I'm sure you believe yourself.



See above. The post I quoted is your own words. It is the epitome of casually dismissive, uninformed rhetoric, and I'm honoring that venom by calling it "rhetoric."

How is your opinion of me different than mine of you?

I was asking questions of a member who asked another question. In NO WAY was I suggesting anything at all about how any rape survivor should feel. That's a preposterous lie.

The facts are that not a single member has said anything about how rape survivors should feel. Not one. Yet, as with the mayor's words, you infer, twist, assume, imagine, distort your own IDEAS about what you FEEL her words and other members words might mean.

The mayor never blamed the victims.
No member has said how rape survivors should feel.

You're just making up whatever you want to make up.

So read your vitriol towards me as my words to you, but whatever you do, don't deal honestly with the facts. Please don't.

 

[Debater Slayer]

How is your opinion of me different than mine of you?

The facts are that not a single member has said anything about how rape survivors should feel. Not one. Yet, as with the mayor's words, you infer, twist, assume, imagine, distort your own IDEAS about what you FEEL her words and other members words might mean.

The mayor never blamed the victims.
No member has said how rape survivors should feel.

And this is where I decide that trying to reason with you is worthless and a waste of time.

You're just making up whatever you want to make up.

So read your vitriol towards me as my words to you, but whatever you do, don't deal honestly with the facts. Please don't.

This is not the first time I have seen an imitation of a persecution complex. I'm pretty sure it won't be the last either, unfortunately.

Have a nice day, and keep believing yourself.