Mass Assault in Cologne, Mayor blames female victims ?!

[4consideration]

This. ^^

This is actually helpful. Practical and applicable in the reduction of future assaults while addressing the crimes committed in question with justice and consequence. Well done.

Yes. I was pleased to see it, for the reasons you mentioned.

It occurred to me that in the cases of the larger numbers (at least how I understand the events to have occurred,) if it was not an offense to sexually grope a person without consent before, and becomes so -- that alone (IMO) makes it more likely women would report it, than if it occurred and she had no reason to the think it would be taken seriously as a charge against the perpetrator. I think repeat groping should be considered as something toward deportation and/or rejection of asylum request -- for both the crimes of sexual assault and for robbery.

 

[prometheus11]

We certainly don't have as much power as we like to pretend we do.

True. True.

The point was he may hear such advice, and if he is attacked he may hear it again, even though the problem is not at all him but with the social mentality that made the attack thinkable, and telling him to be careful about how he expresses his thoughts on Islam is not addressing that problem.

But let's put ourselves in the shoes of the person giving the advice.

What are the options?

Can they change all of society? Can they change thousands or hundreds of thousands of minds? Can they even address that group?

What if that person is going to dedicate the rest of his life to eradicating that philosophy that caused the specific harm in question? What then? How does that person show empathy and concern for welfare? Say nothing? Explain his future goals? (Wouldn't that be just as empty a platitude?)

Is the ONLY accepted response: Let's hunt down every one of those bustards, but until that happens, I got no advice, so best of luck?

Let's say that the "advice giver" simply makes ONE suggestion? "I know you walk through an area where this crime often occurs. When you need to go there, I'll drop what I'm doing and get a few friends and we will go with you and lay down our lives if necessary to keep you safe."

According to every argument in this thread saying the mayor was victim blaming, that hypothetical comment is heartless, stupid "victim blaming," isn't it? There's not one argument in this thread that blames the mayor for victim blaming that also wouldn't necessitate my proposed statement as victim blaming.

The message of those claiming "victim blaming" is: NEVER give advice to anyone on how to avoid being hurt. Just keep your mouth shut about people trying to avoid danger and whine about how bad the criminals are.

........


Mother to daughter;

"Oh no, honey, you just keep walking to school the same way despite the child molester that just moved in down the street. If you change your path to school, or walk with a group of friends and keep your cell phone in your hands, you're blaming the victim. Now give me your cell phone, and go to school by yourself. No friends can go with you."

Daughter:

"But mommy, you just bought me a cell phone, and Janey and Madison said they would leave two minutes early and walk with me!"

Mother:

"I said No. If you or Janey or Madison change your behavior at all, we are then blaming every prior child victim."

Daughter:

"But that just doesn't make sense." How would we be blaming previous child victims by going to school another way with my friends?

Mother:

You're grounded, young lady!! We don't blame victims in this house!!!

 

[icehorse]

Mother: Oh, I almost forgot,don't let any strangers get within 100 feet of you.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

True. True.



But let's put ourselves in the shoes of the person giving the advice.

What are the options?

Can they change all of society? Can they change thousands or hundreds of thousands of minds? Can they even address that group?

What if that person is going to dedicate the rest of his life to eradicating that philosophy that caused the specific harm in question? What then? How does that person show empathy and concern for welfare? Say nothing? Explain his future goals? (Wouldn't that be just as empty a platitude?)

Is the ONLY accepted response: Let's hunt down every one of those bustards, but until that happens, I got no advice, so best of luck?

Let's say that the "advice giver" simply makes ONE suggestion? "I know you walk through an area where this crime often occurs. When you need to go there, I'll drop what I'm doing and get a few friends and we will go with you and lay down our lives if necessary to keep you safe."

According to every argument in this thread saying the mayor was victim blaming, that hypothetical comment is heartless, stupid "victim blaming," isn't it? There's not one argument in this thread that blames the mayor for victim blaming that also wouldn't necessitate my proposed statement as victim blaming.

The message of those claiming "victim blaming" is: NEVER give advice to anyone on how to avoid being hurt. Just keep your mouth shut about people trying to avoid danger and whine about how bad the criminals are.

........


Mother to daughter;

"Oh no, honey, you just keep walking to school the same way despite the child molester that just moved in down the street. If you change your path to school, or walk with a group of friends and keep your cell phone in your hands, you're blaming the victim. Now give me your cell phone, and go to school by yourself. No friends can go with you."

Daughter:

"But mommy, you just bought me a cell phone, and Janey and Madison said they would leave two minutes early and walk with me!"

Mother:

"I said No. If you or Janey or Madison change your behavior at all, we are then blaming every prior child victim."

Daughter:

"But that just doesn't make sense." How would we be blaming previous child victims by going to school another way with my friends?

Mother:

You're grounded, young lady!! We don't blame victims in this house!!!

What a way to miss the entire point.

I practice situational awareness. My daughter practices it. My friends do. We call or text each other when we get home safely. We walk confidently with keys and/ or mace in hand. It's RARE to find any female who DOESN'T do this.

And know what? We are criticized for it because feminists like me help organize these kinds of self defense and situational awareness workshops and assertive communication and home defense classes by helping to create rape "hysteria."

So when we tell folks who aren't already involved in helping to prevent rape....meaning those of us who are ER patient advocates, who volunteer at rape crisis centers, who create peer groups and network with counselors of psychological work, financial advice, and legal advice....we already know what helps and have our hands dirty in helping to decrease future incidences.

Let me ask you something, when was the last time you held the hand of a survivor who is still in shock, sitting in a hospital ER gown watching ripped clothes being taken as evidence, and having to consider being probed for DNA evidence shortly after being attacked?

If you're going to mischaracterize the actual work that rape survivor advocacy does, at least put some thought into it. Because you and your ilk sure haven't had any decency to listen to somebody who does this volunteer work and who has been through it themselves.

 

[Jumi]

Is the ONLY accepted response: Let's hunt down every one of those bustards, but until that happens, I got no advice, so best of luck?

I think they could give better advice instead of banalities that don't reflect the situation.

Imagine you got beat up by a group of 10 guys. Some authority would give the advice "learn to box" to avoid getting beat up. It doesn't apply to the situation, but learning to box certainly helps in the future against getting beat up.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Can they change all of society? Can they change thousands or hundreds of thousands of minds? Can they even address that group?

They can admit there is a problem that is far greater than keeping strangers at a distance for fear of rape or having to keep quiet about your religious views for fear of violence and death.
Merkel's statement wasn't the same regurgitated "advice," but is a statement that acknowledges and addresses the problem.

The message of those claiming "victim blaming" is: NEVER give advice to anyone on how to avoid being hurt. Just keep your mouth shut about people trying to avoid danger and whine about how bad the criminals are.

Except women have already heard that advice, and repeating that advice is not addressing the problem.

 

[prometheus11]

They can admit there is a problem that is far greater than keeping strangers at a distance for fear of rape or having to keep quiet about your religious views for fear of violence and death.
Merkel's statement wasn't the same regurgitated "advice," but is a statement that acknowledges and addresses the problem.

Except women have already heard that advice, and repeating that advice is not addressing the problem.

Agreed.

None of these statements affect my point.

 

[prometheus11]

I think they could give better advice instead of banalities that don't reflect the situation.

Imagine you got beat up by a group of 10 guys. Some authority would give the advice "learn to box" to avoid getting beat up. It doesn't apply to the situation, but learning to box certainly helps in the future against getting beat up.

Please provide a statement that warns citizens without falling under the label of "victim blaming." ...What the mayor should have said.

 

[Debater Slayer]

What a way to miss the entire point.

I practice situational awareness. My daughter practices it. My friends do. We call or text each other when we get home safely. We walk confidently with keys and/ or mace in hand. It's RARE to find any female who DOESN'T do this.

And know what? We are criticized for it because feminists like me help organize these kinds of self defense and situational awareness workshops and assertive communication and home defense classes by helping to create rape "hysteria."

So when we tell folks who aren't already involved in helping to prevent rape....meaning those of us who are ER patient advocates, who volunteer at rape crisis centers, who create peer groups and network with counselors of psychological work, financial advice, and legal advice....we already know what helps and have our hands dirty in helping to decrease future incidences.

Let me ask you something, when was the last time you held the hand of a survivor who is still in shock, sitting in a hospital ER gown watching ripped clothes being taken as evidence, and having to consider being probed for DNA evidence shortly after being attacked?

If you're going to mischaracterize the actual work that rape survivor advocacy does, at least put some thought into it. Because you and your ilk sure haven't had any decency to listen to somebody who does this volunteer work and who has been through it themselves.

But we should discard the advice of a woman who has worked in rape crisis centers in favor of some random male on an online forum. Don't you understand how things work in reality?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

But we should discard the advice of a woman who has worked in rape crisis centers in favor of some random male on an online forum. Don't you understand how things work in reality?

Better yet to discard the advice if she is a survivor herself. Because just because she's had this experience doesn't automatically make her right. Besides, she's probably ****ed up mentally. Haha, let me make a sarcastic joke about mansplaining as a man....#notallmenthough #myfeelingsmatter #yourpoorfeministfeelingsdontmatter #objectivityforthewin #imalwaysobjective

 

[Koldo]

What a way to miss the entire point.

I practice situational awareness. My daughter practices it. My friends do. We call or text each other when we get home safely. We walk confidently with keys and/ or mace in hand. It's RARE to find any female who DOESN'T do this.

And know what? We are criticized for it because feminists like me help organize these kinds of self defense and situational awareness workshops and assertive communication and home defense classes by helping to create rape "hysteria."

So when we tell folks who aren't already involved in helping to prevent rape....meaning those of us who are ER patient advocates, who volunteer at rape crisis centers, who create peer groups and network with counselors of psychological work, financial advice, and legal advice....we already know what helps and have our hands dirty in helping to decrease future incidences.

Let me ask you something, when was the last time you held the hand of a survivor who is still in shock, sitting in a hospital ER gown watching ripped clothes being taken as evidence, and having to consider being probed for DNA evidence shortly after being attacked?

If you're going to mischaracterize the actual work that rape survivor advocacy does, at least put some thought into it. Because you and your ilk sure haven't had any decency to listen to somebody who does this volunteer work and who has been through it themselves.

And I would criticize anyone who criticized you for doing such.

I think it is you who might have missed the entire point though.
I haven't seen anyone praising the 'advice' given by the mayor. Nor have I seen anyone speaking ill of rape survivor advocacy.
The subject of this topic is whether what the speech given by the mayor amounts to victim blaming, nothing else.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Better yet to discard the advice if she is a survivor herself. Because just because she's had this experience doesn't automatically make her right. Besides, she's probably ****ed up mentally. Haha, let me make a sarcastic joke about mansplaining as a man....#notallmenthough #myfeelingsmatter #yourpoorfeministfeelingsdontmatter #objectivityforthewin #imalwaysobjective

Don't use the word "mansplaining" or there will be a flood of complaints about "abuse" and "misandry." I must be a misandrist myself when I use that word. Learn something new every day (or is it every thread?).

 

[prometheus11]

What a way to miss the entire point.

I practice situational awareness. My daughter practices it. My friends do. We call or text each other when we get home safely. We walk confidently with keys and/ or mace in hand. It's RARE to find any female who DOESN'T do this.

And know what? We are criticized for it because feminists like me help organize these kinds of self defense and situational awareness workshops and assertive communication and home defense classes by helping to create rape "hysteria."

So when we tell folks who aren't already involved in helping to prevent rape....meaning those of us who are ER patient advocates, who volunteer at rape crisis centers, who create peer groups and network with counselors of psychological work, financial advice, and legal advice....we already know what helps and have our hands dirty in helping to decrease future incidences.

Let me ask you something, when was the last time you held the hand of a survivor who is still in shock, sitting in a hospital ER gown watching ripped clothes being taken as evidence, and having to consider being probed for DNA evidence shortly after being attacked?

If you're going to mischaracterize the actual work that rape survivor advocacy does, at least put some thought into it. Because you and your ilk sure haven't had any decency to listen to somebody who does this volunteer work and who has been through it themselves.

So what does that have to do with the reality that any warning would be seen by you and DS as "victim blaming?"

And since I've never once discussed volunteer work concerning rape victims I'll ask that you retract the lie that I am mischaracterizing it.

Thanks.

 

[prometheus11]

But we should discard the advice of a woman who has worked in rape crisis centers in favor of some random male on an online forum. Don't you understand how things work in reality?

Strawman. Nobody is suggesting that so there's no need to suggest someone is thinking that.

 

[Jumi]

Please provide a statement that warns citizens without falling under the label of "victim blaming." ...What the mayor should have said.

I'm not talking victim blaming. The problem is there isn't much you can do against a group like this when you are unarmed, except stay home and avoid crowded areas until the criminal elements are removed.

Unless you have some practice or training you don't expect them to come and that's when they surround you or herd you to the other group if you try to get away. Then you are pretty much done and they can do what they want with you. Moving in groups didn't help the women attacked and I've gathered from the news that someone was wearing jeans and a leather jacket.

Keeping an arms length from people who come to you to surround you and outnumber you? That's like fantasy advice people say about fighting.

 

[Revoltingest]

But we should discard the advice of a woman who has worked in rape crisis centers in favor of some random male on an online forum. Don't you understand how things work in reality?

This is a double standard though.
You (as random a male internet denizen as I) are discarding the advice of the mayor,
who is a real female, who is also the survivor of a near fatal attack.
I criticize her advice because it lacked applicability & its timing was poor.
Furthermore, her government failed to alert the populace to these ongoing attacks.

What this should mean is that no one of us has any more authority than the other.
In this venue, we are only what we post. And it should be about the issues, not
who is higher up in some imagined pecking order.

 

[prometheus11]

I'm not talking victim blaming. The problem is there isn't much you can do against a group like this when you are unarmed, except stay home and avoid crowded areas until the criminal elements are removed.

If you advised that, people would accuse you of victim blaming.

Unless you have some practice or training you don't expect them to come and that's when they surround you or herd you to the other group if you try to get away. Then you are pretty much done and they can do what they want with you. Moving in groups didn't help the women attacked and I've gathered from the news that someone was wearing jeans and a leather jacket. Keeping an arms length from people who come to you to surround you and outnumber you?

That's like fantasy advice people say about fighting.

Yes. As I said, the mayor should ha e given no advice at all. If someone asked her if women should perhaps stay in groups, she should have replied, "it's none of my business how women choose to behave to attempt to protect themselves. I don't blame victims for criminal behavior."

 

[MysticSang'ha]

And I would criticize anyone who criticized you for doing such.

I think it is you who might have missed the entire point though.
I haven't seen anyone praising the 'advice' given by the mayor. Nor have I seen anyone speaking ill of rape survivor advocacy.
The subject of this topic is whether what the speech given by the mayor amounts to victim blaming, nothing else.

So what does that have to do with the reality that any warning would be seen by you and DS as "victim blaming?"

Let me break this down for you...

Prevention, first, is already a part of our every day lexicon and daily activities. We encourage women (mostly) to attend self-defense courses, we create workshops for how to communicate boundaries assertively....how to say with authority "NO" or "STOP"...how to use a weapon, and we organize how to practice situational awareness.

These preventive measures are carefully chosen to be applicable in all situations where rape may occur, whether it's partner rape (most common) or stranger/gang rape (least common).

Once an attack occurs, the conversation changes from prevention advice to patient advocacy, network for legal and financial protection, STI and injury recovery, abortion options, etc. prevention advice then becomes extraneous, pointless, and re-traumatized the survivor.

It is the opinion of advocacy members like myself that prevention advice must come from groups that work with survivors and law enforcement special task forces and martial arts schools focusing on intimate partner violence self defense. The "everyday" advice that everyone agrees here as being bad and ineffective must not be given any credibility. Point women in the direction of the experts who are already doing this work.

Public statements and follow up advice post-occurrence would do best to address the attacks occurring, the plans for justice, the investigation and special forces beefed up in response, and the community increasing awareness as a whole.

Why "rape prevention advice" is a huge problem? Putting this all back on the women is all at once burdening the women with more responsibility than they SHOULD be carrying and are ALREADY carrying (I.e. Their entire attack fate is solely in their hands), lessening responsibility of the attackers and letting them know that nobody is watching them more or following their trail or giving them consequences, and that the crowds and security at events might witness a crime, but what can ya do? Rapists gonna rape...

It most certainly is victim-blaming.

 

[prometheus11]

This is a double standard though.
You (as random a male internet denizen as I) are discarding the advice of the mayor,
who is a real female, who is also the survivor of a near fatal attack. I criticize her
advice because it lacked applicability & its timing was poor. Furthermore, her
government failed to alert the populace to these ongoing attacks.

What this should mean is that no one of us has any more authority than the other.
In this venue, we are only what we post. And it should be about the issues, not
who is higher up in some imagined pecking order.

DS has already expressed that it's pointless for him to discuss anything with those who disagree with him and believe the mayor's words were not victim blaming. So your words are obviously being ignored.

 

[Revoltingest]

DS has already expressed that it's pointless for him to discuss anything with those who disagree with him and believe the mayor's words were not victim blaming. So your words are obviously being ignored.

Lack of interest in my posts has never stopped me before!

Anyway, hope springs eternal for detente. I've many friends
with whom I've had testy disagreements. And despite our
arguments here, I find much merit in our fervent feminist friends.