Mass Assault in Cologne, Mayor blames female victims ?!

[prometheus11]

Let me break this down for you...

Prevention, first, is already a part of our every day lexicon and daily activities. We encourage women (mostly) to attend self-defense courses, we create workshops for how to communicate boundaries assertively....how to say with authority "NO" or "STOP"...how to use a weapon, and we organize how to practice situational awareness.

These preventive measures are carefully chosen to be applicable in all situations where rape may occur, whether it's partner rape (most common) or stranger/gang rape (least common).

Once an attack occurs, the conversation changes from prevention advice to patient advocacy, network for legal and financial protection, STI and injury recovery, abortion options, etc. prevention advice then becomes extraneous, pointless, and re-traumatized the survivor.

It is the opinion of advocacy members like myself that prevention advice must come from groups that work with survivors and law enforcement special task forces and martial arts schools focusing on intimate partner violence self defense. The "everyday" advice that everyone agrees here as being bad and ineffective must not be given any credibility. Point women in the direction of the experts who are already doing this work.

Public statements and follow up advice post-occurrence would do best to address the attacks occurring, the plans for justice, the investigation and special forces beefed up in response, and the community increasing awareness as a whole.

Why "rape prevention advice" is a huge problem? Putting this all back on the women is all at once burdening the women with more responsibility than they SHOULD be carrying and are ALREADY carrying (I.e. Their entire attack fate is solely in their hands), lessening responsibility of the attackers and letting them know that nobody is watching them more or following their trail or giving them consequences, and that the crowds and security at events might witness a crime, but what can ya do? Rapists gonna rape...

It most certainly is victim-blaming.

Yes. All warning is victim blaming. No warnings should ever be given by anyone.

 

[Jumi]

If you advised that, people would accuse you of victim blaming.

And I have been. Not that it matters I'm used to being in the middle. I think I would most agree with @MysticSang'ha professional post #398 here.

If you got beat up by a group of thugs giving boxing advice would imply that you were too weak or not smart enough to learn before you got done in.

 

[Koldo]

Let me break this down for you...

Prevention, first, is already a part of our every day lexicon and daily activities. We encourage women (mostly) to attend self-defense courses, we create workshops for how to communicate boundaries assertively....how to say with authority "NO" or "STOP"...how to use a weapon, and we organize how to practice situational awareness.

These preventive measures are carefully chosen to be applicable in all situations where rape may occur, whether it's partner rape (most common) or stranger/gang rape (least common).

Once an attack occurs, the conversation changes from prevention advice to patient advocacy, network for legal and financial protection, STI and injury recovery, abortion options, etc. prevention advice then becomes extraneous, pointless, and re-traumatized the survivor.

It is the opinion of advocacy members like myself that prevention advice must come from groups that work with survivors and law enforcement special task forces and martial arts schools focusing on intimate partner violence self defense. The "everyday" advice that everyone agrees here as being bad and ineffective must not be given any credibility. Point women in the direction of the experts who are already doing this work.

Public statements and follow up advice post-occurrence would do best to address the attacks occurring, the plans for justice, the investigation and special forces beefed up in response, and the community increasing awareness as a whole.

Let me point that up to this point, on this post, you haven't addressed the subject of the topic.
Let's continue...

Why "rape prevention advice" is a huge problem? Putting this all back on the women is all at once burdening the women with more responsibility than they SHOULD be carrying and are ALREADY carrying (I.e. Their entire attack fate is solely in their hands), lessening responsibility of the attackers and letting them know that nobody is watching them more or following their trail or giving them consequences, and that the crowds and security at events might witness a crime, but what can ya do? Rapists gonna rape...

It most certainly is victim-blaming.

But it is not putting it ALL back on the women. The perpetrators are NOT being excused.
What has given you this impression ?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Yes. All warning is victim blaming. No warnings should ever be given by anyone.

Another episode of not reading a single thing I wrote.

Advice should come from the experts in the field. Not the average joe. And certainly not from myths about the prevalence of the dark demon jumping out of the bushes attacking the pure weak and naive virginal lily-petal attractive woman.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes. All warning is victim blaming. No warnings should ever be given by anyone.

I notice that even feminists who decry warnings when dealing with
non-feminists will themselves give advice among themselves.
It seems to be a turf war thingie, ie, they own the right to do that.
The difficulty comes in when we view assault as something afflicting
us all, not just women, but also men & children. Does this larger view
blind us to their different perspective? Is the reverse true?
On top of that, clueless dolts like me don't handle empathy & sympathy
well....I just want to fix things. I just wanna pull out the nail!
So l'll cut slack for their testy reactions, & hope for a little for my hebetude.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Let me point that up to this point, on this post, you haven't addressed the subject of the topic.
Let's continue...

I disagree. But sure, let's continue...

But it is not putting it ALL back on the women. The perpetrators are NOT being excused.
What has given you this impression ?

Read the quotes back to me of the rape prevention advice given. Break down for me who else is given responsibility for preventing future attacks than women attending the event.

 

[prometheus11]

And I have been. Not that it matters I'm used to being in the middle. I think I would most agree with @MysticSang'ha professional post #398 here.

If you got beat up by a group of thugs giving boxing advice would imply that you were too weak or not smart enough to learn before you got done in.

What if the advice was given to the citizens of that locality instead of told to the victims?

 

[Debater Slayer]

DS has already expressed that it's pointless for him to discuss anything with those who disagree with him and believe the mayor's words were not victim blaming. So your words are obviously being ignored.

For someone who keeps saying "retract that lie," that sure seems quite a bold statement.

I have expressed that it's worthless and a waste of time for me to discuss this issue with you. Thankfully, not everyone is you or like you.

 

[Debater Slayer]

This is a double standard though.
You (as random a male internet denizen as I) are discarding the advice of the mayor,
who is a real female, who is also the survivor of a near fatal attack.
I criticize her advice because it lacked applicability & its timing was poor.
Furthermore, her government failed to alert the populace to these ongoing attacks.

What this should mean is that no one of us has any more authority than the other.
In this venue, we are only what we post. And it should be about the issues, not
who is higher up in some imagined pecking order.

I never mentioned a "pecking order," but if I said we should discard the opinion of a woman who is a rape survivor and who has also worked in rape crisis centers in favor of my own advice, I would say the same thing: do not follow the advice of some random male on the Internet over the advice of someone who has not only worked in rape crisis centers but is a rape survivor herself.

 

[prometheus11]

I disagree. But sure, let's continue...



Read the quotes back to me of the rape prevention advice given. Break down for me who else is given responsibility for preventing future attacks than women attending the event.

Nobody put any responsibility in anyone. Advice on attempting to stay safe was given to people who were NOT victims.

Remember, any warning is victim blaming. Warning others of potential criminals in the area should be a felony. Obviously.

 

[prometheus11]

For someone who keeps saying "retract that lie," that sure seems quite a bold statement.

I have expressed that it's worthless and a waste of time for me to discuss this issue with you. Thankfully, not everyone is you or like you.

And the reason you provided was merely that I disagreed with you. So obviously you feel the same way about everyone who disagrees with you on this issue. You gave no other reason than that my perspective was not yours. Are you a hypocrite?

 

[Revoltingest]

I never mentioned a "pecking order,".....

Well, I never said you said that.
But you did address the matter of relative value of opinions based upon belong (or not) to a group.
We random internet males like to be heard, you know.

.....but if I said we should discard the opinion of a woman who is a rape survivor and who has also worked in rape crisis centers in favor of my own advice, I would say the same thing: do not follow the advice of some random male on the Internet over the advice of someone who has not only worked in rape crisis centers but is a rape survivor herself.

Whose opinion was discarded?
I'll note that to civilly disagree about something is not to discard opinions or attack a person.

 

[Koldo]

I disagree. But sure, let's continue...

Read the quotes back to me of the rape prevention advice given. Break down for me who else is given responsibility for preventing future attacks than women attending the event.

First of all, you haven't substantiated the claim that the criminals are being excused. Second, it is obvious the police force will be working towards preventing crimes happening during the event.

 

[Debater Slayer]

And the reason you provided was merely that I disagreed with you. So obviously you feel the same way about everyone who disagrees with you on this issue. You gave no other reason than that my perspective was not yours. Are you a hypocrite?

No, it's not just that you disagree with me, as evidenced by the fact that I'm still talking to some of the people I disagree with here.

But keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better or more important.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

There are 21 pages discussing whether the Mayor gave good advice (she didn't) and only one on the actual assaults and what they mean for European society. Am I the only one who finds this odd?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Well, I never said you said that.
But you did address the matter of relative value of opinions based upon belong (or not) to a group.
We random internet males like to be heard, you know.

Sure, but it helps to be aware of the value of first-hand experience over opinions formed completely theoretically.

Whose opinion was discarded?
I'll note that to civilly disagree about something is not to discard opinions or attack a person.

I can't answer this without mentioning people in the third person, so I'm not going to.

 

[Revoltingest]

There are 21 pages discussing whether the Mayor gave good advice (she didn't) and only one on the actual assaults and what they mean for European society. Am I the only one who finds this odd?

I think that we all agree about 90% on the local German government's handling of the problem.
But that other 11% just consumes us all.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sure, but it helps to be aware of the value of first-hand experience over opinions formed completely theoretically.

First hand experience is certainly of value.
Is the mayor's experience relevant?

 

[prometheus11]

No, it's not just that you disagree with me, as evidenced by the fact that I'm still talking to some of the people I disagree with here.

But keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better or more important.

It's the only reason you gave. Were you lying then or are you lying now?

 

[Jumi]

What if the advice was given to the citizens of that locality instead of told to the victims?

Why would that (bad) advice be given to people of the locality after you got beat? Is it because you were weak or not smart enough... an example for the locality?