Mass deportations to the East

[Alceste]

sure they can , and its easy on an individual basis, but a little harder when extended families etc all decide to ignore the rule of law and just stay put.

we in the UK cannot sustain such forms of illegal immigration i am not sure if any country in the world lets you just turn up and stay.

First Nations people can travel freely across the Canadian-US border without documentation apart from proof of their native heritage. This is in recognition of the fact that their nomadic culture predates the creation of North America's borders and immigration laws. IMO, the Roma people (who are not necessarily "Romanian", BTW), are in a similar category and their distinct culture should be similarly recognized by European law. To advocate otherwise is to advocate cultural genocide, which I'm sorry to say went out of fashion along with the doctrines of manifest destiny and the white man's burden.

 

[kai]

First Nations people can travel freely across the Canadian-US border without documentation apart from proof of their native heritage. This is in recognition of the fact that their nomadic culture predates the creation of North America's borders and immigration laws. IMO, the Roma people (who are not necessarily "Romanian", BTW), are in a similar category and their distinct culture should be similarly recognized by European law. To advocate otherwise is to advocate cultural genocide, which I'm sorry to say went out of fashion along with the doctrines of manifest destiny and the white man's burden.

Is it their "nomadic" culture that pre-dates north American borders or the fact that there actual culture pre-dates North America i mean in reality it was theirs and the north Americans are sitting on it.

are you saying that first nations people can walk to Texas from Canada and just set up camp and live there if they wish?

 

[Alceste]

Is it their "nomadic" culture that pre-dates north American borders or the fact that there actual culture pre-dates North America i mean in reality it was there's and the north Americans are sitting on it.

That doesn't make much sense, but at any rate Roma culture, which has been present in Europe for about a thousand years, predates the existing borders and immigration laws of Europe.

are you saying that first nations people can walk to Texas from Canada and just set up camp and live there if they wish?

Yup. They can, and rightly so.

 

[kai]

That doesn't make much sense, but at any rate Roma culture, which has been present in Europe for about a thousand years, predates the existing borders and immigration laws of Europe.

Yup. They can, and rightly so

.

well that's amazing i didn't know that.



well its arguable that all European cultures pre-date existing borders and immigration laws but but now is now.

The Roma like everybody else in Europe can travel to France without a visa but like everybody else in Europe if they want to stay for longer than 3 months have to get a work permit.

Maybe once Europe is all one big Franco -German state we can just live where we want but until then we are stuck with borders , laws and taxes etc.

 

[Panda]

That doesn't make much sense, but at any rate Roma culture, which has been present in Europe for about a thousand years, predates the existing borders and immigration laws of Europe.

My culture pre-dates existing borders and immigration laws could I be exempt from the laws of these places?

Your argument doesn't really work in Europe because the vast majority of people come from culture and heritages that pre-date the existence of the countries in this area, as well as being indigenous to it.

 

[Alceste]

My culture pre-dates existing borders and immigration laws could I be exempt from the laws of these places?

Your argument doesn't really work in Europe because the vast majority of people come from culture and heritages that pre-date the existence of the countries in this area, as well as being indigenous to it.

The pertinent question is whether they are / were settled or nomadic. The plains tribes were nomadic.

 

[kai]

The pertinent question is whether they are / were settled or nomadic. The plains tribes were nomadic.

I suggest the plains tribes are a little different as North American settlers have taken their lands and made it their own. whereas the Roma had no land in Europe to begin with. What the French are dealing with is squatter communities of economic migrants mainly from the Balkans that have not followed proper procedure. This is also happening in Italy, Sweden Denmark and Germany.

 

[Alceste]

I suggest the plains tribes are a little different as North American settlers have taken their lands and made it their own. whereas the Roma had no land in Europe to begin with. What the French are dealing with is squatter communities of economic migrants mainly from the Balkans that have not followed proper procedure. This is also happening in Italy, Sweden Denmark and Germany.

Nevertheless, Romani gypsies are a nomadic ethnicity, and laws that restrict their freedom to travel or camp are inherently genocidal. For what, to make some bureaucrat's paperwork a little easier? Not worth it.

 

[kai]

Nevertheless, Romani gypsies are a nomadic ethnicity, and laws that restrict their freedom to travel or camp are inherently genocidal. For what, to make some bureaucrat's paperwork a little easier? Not worth it.

They have full freedom to travel as EU citizens but they don't have freedom to stay longer than 3 months without the necessary documentation to show they can support themselves, same as everybody else. Its not about travelling its about staying.

 

[Alceste]

They have full freedom to travel as EU citizens but they don't have freedom to stay longer than 3 months without the necessary documentation to show they can support themselves, same as everybody else. Its not about travelling its about staying.

We will have to agree to disagree, I think. I am a civil libertarian and value ethnic diversity. I don't believe in policies that force distinct ethnicities to conform to mainstream values, since the destruction these policies have wrought and continue to wreak on nomadic and aboriginal cultures is a crime against humanity. Any government bean-counter's 7-hour, headache-free work day is not worth it.

 

[Bismillah]

I think what's key is to put a number on how long a nomadic person stays in one area. Is it be 3 weeks, 3 months, or even 3 years before they move again? Also do Gypsies pursue careers wherever they are staying, that is are they competing with the local populace for work or are they more of a self sustaining type of community. If they are not dependent on the state and aren't competing for jobs then perhaps the time period allowing them to stay in one region should be extended, whereas if they are competing for work then the time period can stay the same.

 

[kai]

We will have to agree to disagree, I think. I am a civil libertarian and value ethnic diversity. I don't believe in policies that force distinct ethnicities to conform to mainstream values, since the destruction these policies have wrought and continue to wreak on nomadic and aboriginal cultures is a crime against humanity. Any government bean-counter's 7-hour, headache-free work day is not worth it.

Ok

 

[Panda]

The pertinent question is whether they are / were settled or nomadic. The plains tribes were nomadic.

Yes but why should they be exempt from certain laws because their culture doesn't agree with it?

 

[kai]

Yes but why should they be exempt from certain laws because their culture doesn't agree with it?

Thats a good point , i mean should Roma be allowed to live wherever they choose, stay as long as they like in any country they like, not be bound by the laws that bind the rest of us British,French,Danish,Irish, German , whatever--- --just because they are Roma?

 

[sandandfoam]

Thats a good point , i mean should Roma be allowed to live wherever they choose, stay as long as they like in any country they like, not be bound by the laws that bind the rest of us British,French,Danish,Irish, German , whatever--- --just because they are Roma?

I'm not following where the presumption that Roma don't have to follow the laws arises?

If anything they would appear to me to be being trated extra-judicially, if British citizens were treated in a similar fahion I imagine there would be an international incident.

 

[kai]

I'm not following where the presumption that Roma don't have to follow the laws arises?

If anything they would appear to me to be being trated extra-judicially, if British citizens were treated in a similar fahion I imagine there would be an international incident.

I have no doubt Stephen if thousands of Britishers entered France and pitched camp stayed over the 3 month limit without the necessary documentation we would be ejected Tout de suite, if not before!!


"Europeans who sojourn on (French) soil without respecting conditions (of residency) will be repatriated to their countries of origin, either voluntarily or under constraint," Besson said in a statement.



Roma from Romania and Bulgaria are allowed free passage into France if they are European Union citizens. After that, however, they must find work, start studies, or find some other way of becoming established in France or risk deportation.





http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=120018

 

[Alceste]

Yes but why should they be exempt from certain laws because their culture doesn't agree with it?

Wrong way to look at it, IMO. Is there any good reason for their liberties to be restricted and their culture to be crushed?

 

[Panda]

Wrong way to look at it, IMO. Is there any good reason for their liberties to be restricted and their culture to be crushed?

Because it is ridiculous to allow people exemptions from the law based solely on their culture. The law is meant to apply equally to all people not some laws for people of some cultures, religions and other laws for people of other cultures, religions or whatever.

 

[Alceste]

Because it is ridiculous to allow people exemptions from the law based solely on their culture. The law is meant to apply equally to all people not some laws for people of some cultures, religions and other laws for people of other cultures, religions or whatever.

So it's OK to restrict freedom of movement of gypsies (and aboriginal people) and force them through genocidal laws to assimilate because Panda thinks it would be "ridiculous" not to do so. I was hoping for a more sophisticated ethical argument. The way I see the world, governments, laws and borders are optional. I need to have compelling, empirical reasons to respect them (although the threat of state-sanctioned violence sometimes fills the gap). Likewise, I need compelling, empirical reasons why civil liberties must be restricted, and if the restrictions are inherently genocidal the burden of proof is even higher.

 

[Panda]

So it's OK to restrict freedom of movement of gypsies (and aboriginal people) and force them through genocidal laws to assimilate because Panda thinks it would be "ridiculous" not to do so.

How childish Alceste calling immigration laws genocidal. The UN difines genocide as the following:

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#cite_note-CPPCG-1

I was hoping for a more sophisticated ethical argument. The way I see the world, governments, laws and borders are optional. I need to have compelling, empirical reasons to respect them (although the threat of state-sanctioned violence sometimes fills the gap). Likewise, I need compelling, empirical reasons why civil liberties must be restricted, and if the restrictions are inherently genocidal the burden of proof is even higher.

So why then should all cultural and religious groups not be exempt from said laws? What if you are not of Roma origins but what to become a traveller why should they not also be allowed the same freedom?