Mass deportations to the East

[Alceste]

How childish Alceste calling immigration laws genocidal. The UN difines genocide as the following:

Childish? No. Accurate.

Cultural genocide

So why then should all cultural and religious groups not be exempt from said laws? What if you are not of Roma origins but what to become a traveller why should they not also be allowed the same freedom?

They should, IMO.

 

[Panda]

Childish? No. Accurate.

Cultural genocide

It is not trying to stop their culture, or it shouldn't. The laws in place are not specifically designed to target this culture or stop it. To fall under your category they have to be deliberate:

Cultural genocide refers to the deliberate destruction of the cultural heritage of a people or nation for political, military, religious, ideological, ethnical, or racial reasons.

I don't see how you can argue that immigration laws are designed to do this. What France done on the other hand perhaps.

They should, IMO.

I still don't see why anyone should get special treatment because they want to be nomadic. If you are living in a country you should have to pay taxes and follow the same laws as everyone else, even if you are permanently travelling around a country you should still have to pay tax IMO.

 

[Cypress]

I think the problem mainly is that today each country in EU has enough struggle with its own unemployment rate.
So there come people, European citizens, yes, bad badly integrated into the society of their own homecountry, barely educated, not speaking the national language - in fact they have all the markings of people
who come to EU from - let's say - Africa.
So what to do with them?
That is indeed a problem.
One could try to integrate them into society, but that costs time & money, and they are not properly integrated in their own country, so how would it be easier to integrate them into the society of another country?

 

[Alceste]

It is not trying to stop their culture, or it shouldn't. The laws in place are not specifically designed to target this culture or stop it. To fall under your category they have to be deliberate:


I don't see how you can argue that immigration laws are designed to do this. What France done on the other hand perhaps.





I still don't see why anyone should get special treatment because they want to be nomadic. If you are living in a country you should have to pay taxes and follow the same laws as everyone else, even if you are permanently travelling around a country you should still have to pay tax IMO.

I'm specifically talking about what France has done in the context of the genocidal persecution and forced assimilation of tinkers, gypsies, aboriginal people and other culturally distinct minorities which has been the norm for most of our history. Laws that do not take the cultural necessities of minorities into account are part of this picture. You can argue, for example, that a law against head coverings applies equally to everyone, but in effect it only persecutes Muslim women.

 

[Panda]

I'm specifically talking about what France has done in the context of the genocidal persecution and forced assimilation of tinkers, gypsies, aboriginal people and other culturally distinct minorities which has been the norm for most of our history.

Apologies I though you were talking about all immigration and travel restriction laws.

Laws that do not take the cultural necessities of minorities into account are part of this picture. You can argue, for example, that a law against head coverings applies equally to everyone, but in effect it only persecutes Muslim women.

I think intent is important. Immigration laws are there to stop people just coming into a country and using its resources without contributed anything back as well as for national security and such like.

 

[Alceste]

Apologies I though you were talking about all immigration and travel restriction laws.



I think intent is important. Immigration laws are there to stop people just coming into a country and using its resources without contributed anything back as well as for national security and such like.

Fair enough - intent does matter, but I doubt you'll find many anti-camping, anti-immigration laws that aren't spawned as a reaction to "undesirable" people camping and immigrating. These things tend not to spring up out of the blue.

 

[dust1n]

It is not trying to stop their culture, or it shouldn't. The laws in place are not specifically designed to target this culture or stop it. To fall under your category they have to be deliberate:

What does it matter if the obvious side effect is intentional or accidental?

 

[kai]

What does it matter if the obvious side effect is intentional or accidental?

Modern life in general, with nation states and boundaries, laws,taxes, and really just modern 21st century Europe, is not exactly suitable for a hunter gatherer lifestyle is it.Times change and although i feel for the people and in all honesty a small part of me envies such a way of life. Time has moved on. Like i said the Roma can and do travel its when they stay put the problems start.


Its a side effect of it being the 21st century.



I also would like to point out France is not deporting Roma who are French citizens but Romanian and Bulgarian Roma who have illegally emigrated to France. If France is wrong in sending them "Home" to Romania and Bulgaria what would you have them do ? I suppose thay could have a reverse discrimination and allow just Roma to become French citizens and live in France, not the rest of us though who would fancy living there, but i thought they didn't want to live anywhere i thought they were nomadic.

 

[Alceste]

Modern life in general, with nation states and boundaries, laws,taxes, and really just modern 21st century Europe, is not exactly suitable for a hunter gatherer lifestyle is it.Times change and although i feel for the people and in all honesty a small part of me envies such a way of life. Time has moved on. Like i said the Roma can and do travel its when they stay put the problems start.


Its a side effect of it being the 12st century.

That's an outdated view. Many people are pushing hard for recognition of the special circumstances and cultural genocide (death by bureaucracy!) of aboriginal people (specifically) and meeting with great successes, like the UNs declaration on the rights of indigenous people.

On top of that, our civilization is collapsing. It had a very short life span compared to some cultures, and they will very likely fare better in the decades to come than the rest of us.

We must be cautious not to succumb to the fantasy of perpetual progress and improvement. Ours is not the first civilization to collapse, nor will it be the last. Maintaining ethnic and cultural diversity is an insurance policy on the long term viability of the human race. If we were all adapted to this ridiculous level of social complexity, we would be in very deep **** when it starts to fray.

I also would like to point out France is not deporting Roma who are French citizens but Romanian and Bulgarian Roma who have illegally emigrated to France. If France is wrong in sending them "Home" to Romania and Bulgaria what would you have them do ? I suppose thay could have a reverse discrimination and allow just Roma to become French citizens and live in France, not the rest of us though who would fancy living there, but i thought they didn't want to live anywhere i thought they were nomadic.

At the very least, I would have each case processed individually with recourse to appeal, and if leave to stay could not be granted, ample warning of deportation and an opportunity to leave voluntarily provided. However, if I were running France I would just leave them be unless there were some kind of empirically demonstrable social harm associated with their presence.

 

[Panda]

That's an outdated view. Many people are pushing hard for recognition of the special circumstances and cultural genocide (death by bureaucracy!) of aboriginal people (specifically) and meeting with great successes, like the UNs declaration on the rights of indigenous people.

You can't really take that view so much with Europe as we are all the indigenous people due to all those centuries of conquering each other and emigrating/immigrating. Me saying I am "Scottish" just means that for the last 4 or 5 generations my parents, grand parents etc were born and living in Scotland. Before that I expect to me just as much a mongrel as everyone else here.

On top of that, our civilization is collapsing. It had a very short life span compared to some cultures, and they will very likely fare better in the decades to come than the rest of us.

How exactly is our civilisation collapsing?

We must be cautious not to succumb to the fantasy of perpetual progress and improvement. Ours is not the first civilization to collapse, nor will it be the last. Maintaining ethnic and cultural diversity is an insurance policy on the long term viability of the human race. If we were all adapted to this ridiculous level of social complexity, we would be in very deep **** when it starts to fray.

You seem to be taking this on a given that our civilisation will collapse in the immediate future. To me this notion seems complete fantasy on your part.

 

[kai]

You can't really take that view so much with Europe as we are all the indigenous people due to all those centuries of conquering each other and emigrating/immigrating. Me saying I am "Scottish" just means that for the last 4 or 5 generations my parents, grand parents etc were born and living in Scotland. Before that I expect to me just as much a mongrel as everyone else here.

Very true My mother is Welsh my Father is English


How exactly is our civilisation collapsing?

Yes that puzzled me too

You seem to be taking this on a given that our civilisation will collapse in the immediate future. To me this notion seems complete fantasy on your part.

Perhaps we should all adopt the nomadic lifestyle in case our civilisation collapses------hold on though wouldn't that make our civilisation collapse?

 

[croak]

EU turning blind eye to discrimination against Roma, say human rights groups | World news | The Guardian

French president Nicholas Sarkozy was this week accused of pursuing a "xenophobic" and "discriminatory" crackdown on the country's 400,000 Travellers, Gypsies and Roma – most of whom have French citizenship.

Scapegoating will not solve 'Roma problem' | Rob Kushen | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

The EU's Fundamental Rights Agency has expressed concern that in the absence of any integration policy, many Roma like those targeted in Sarkozy's announced plan remain unregistered and unable to enjoy civil, political, economic and social rights, even though EU law guarantees citizens the right to move and reside in other EU countries. Our concern is that the announced plan will only amplify the problems already identified and render many people homeless. Such a plan is not the badly needed solution to the situation of Europe's marginalised minority. Such a plan will not improve public security.

Scapegoating Travellers and Roma is not going to solve the problem of their marginalisation throughout Europe. Why are Roma leaving Romania, Bulgaria and other eastern European countries to come to the more prosperous west? Because they have no jobs at home. Because their children are segregated into schools ostensibly for children with mental disabilities. Because they are the targets of extremist violence by neo-Nazis. Because the vast majority of their non-Roma neighbours express implacable hostility toward them.

And for those interested in the indigenous peoples of Europe: Indigenous peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EDIT: Things aren't really that bad in Romania and Bulgaria, are they?
http://www.errc.org/cikk.php?cikk=2912

Let us not forget that some want to go even further. In a Romanian football stadium in March 2006, thousands of football fans chanted "Die Gypsy."27 At roughly the same time, Mr Volen Siderov, a member of the Ataka political party in Bulgaria proposed making soap out of Roma.28

Oh. They are. Read the article; it gets better. Or worse, depending on how you see it.

 

[Alceste]

You can't really take that view so much with Europe as we are all the indigenous people due to all those centuries of conquering each other and emigrating/immigrating. Me saying I am "Scottish" just means that for the last 4 or 5 generations my parents, grand parents etc were born and living in Scotland. Before that I expect to me just as much a mongrel as everyone else here.

You don't accept the standard definition of "indigenous peoples" now?

How exactly is our civilisation collapsing?

Peak oil, climate change, overpopulation, food insecurity and water depletion in the context of a complex system of social organization that is technology-dependent (aka oil-dependent), and operating under a growth based economic model when population studies predict the human population will peak in about 2050. Want a reading list?

You seem to be taking this on a given that our civilisation will collapse in the immediate future. To me this notion seems complete fantasy on your part.

lol. OK, here's your reading list, all books I've read within the last year or two.

A Short History of Progress
The Wayfinders
Climate Wars
Water: the causes, costs and future of a global crisis
The End of Food
The Vanishing Face of Gaia

Those books, numerous articles on the subject of peak oil, climate change, water and food security and a decade of interest in the indigenous sovereignty movement in Canada are what my notions are based on. Care to share any of the readings and resources that assure you our future is secure, or is your opinion based on a "complete fantasy on your part"?

 

[Panda]

You don't accept the standard definition of "indigenous peoples" now?

I do and the Roma do not fit them Indigenous People's of Europe. Especially as the Romania are counted as a South Asian origin.

Peak oil, climate change, overpopulation, food insecurity and water depletion in the context of a complex system of social organization that is technology-dependent (aka oil-dependent), and operating under a growth based economic model when population studies predict the human population will peak in about 2050. Want a reading list?

Yes oil is running out, however there are a lot of alternative. Renewable energy sources is something I study and have done numerous reports on as well as has several presentations from key members of that field.

lol. OK, here's your reading list, all books I've read within the last year or two.

A Short History of Progress
The Wayfinders
Climate Wars
Water: the causes, costs and future of a global crisis
The End of Food
The Vanishing Face of Gaia

Those books, numerous articles on the subject of peak oil, climate change, water and food security and a decade of interest in the indigenous sovereignty movement in Canada are what my notions are based on. Care to share any of the readings and resources that assure you our future is secure, or is your opinion based on a "complete fantasy on your part"?[/quote]

Oil will and is starting to transition to other things, climate change will not destroy our culture we will just change to greener sources and adapt to changes. We already are changing to greener sources. Water shortages? Have you never heard of desalination?

Food shortages are something that people have been saying is imminent for 200 years. This article is a couple of years old but you might find it interesting Are Malthus's Predicted 1798 Food Shortages Coming True?[/quote]

I think it is unlikely that these thing will destroy our culture unless something happens to cause change very quickly. It is more likely we will just change and adapt our culture to be more efficient as well as using new technologies to deal with these problems.

However we are getting very off topic.

 

[croak]

I do and the Roma do not fit them Indigenous People's of Europe. Especially as the Romania are counted as a South Asian origin.

I think you meant the Roma or Romani/y. Romania's a country.

IYes oil is running out, however there are a lot of alternative. Renewable energy sources is something I study and have done numerous reports on as well as has several presentations from key members of that field.

I've heard of alternatives for powering cars and producing electricity, but how about things that require mineral oil? And desalination? That's not exactly feasible. How about we stop polluting fresh water sources?

But yes, this is going off-track.

 

[Alceste]

I do and the Roma do not fit them Indigenous People's of Europe. Especially as the Romania are counted as a South Asian origin.

I never claimed they did. Throughout all of my posts, I have referred to indigenous people AND Romani people, because I believe NEITHER should be subject to public policies with genocidal effect, regardless of intent.

Yes oil is running out, however there are a lot of alternative. Renewable energy sources is something I study and have done numerous reports on as well as has several presentations from key members of that field.

There are no alternatives that are equally cheap and portable. The end of cheap, abundant energy is the risk. Peak oil is often misrepresented as the fear of the tap running dry. In fact, it is the understanding that our infrastructure, which took hundreds of years to develop, has become increasingly oil-based for the past hundred years or so, and now is almost completely oil-based. Oil prices fluctuate much faster than new technologies are developed. IOW, unless someone is building thousands of solar-powered ocean freighters right this very minute, our global economic system is still almost entirely precariously perched on the widespread availability of cheap oil, and will be for decades to come.

Oil will and is starting to transition to other things, climate change will not destroy our culture we will just change to greener sources and adapt to changes. We already are changing to greener sources. Water shortages? Have you never heard of desalination?

Again, it is not the availability of water, but the availability of cheap, abundant water that poses the risk. Israel, for example, has established farmland in a desert by irrigating her crops with water from deep aquifers that are millions of years old and quickly becoming depleted. Unless Israel is already working on a massive desalination project - enough to irrigate all her food growing regions - her water situation is precarious and volatile. And don't get me started with India and Pakistan.

I agree that things can be done to mitigate these risks, but I also observe that very little is being done, which means the **** can hit the fan much faster than we can build an alternative waste treatment and air conditioning system to avoid the impending mess.

Food shortages are something that people have been saying is imminent for 200 years. This article is a couple of years old but you might find it interesting Are Malthus's Predicted 1798 Food Shortages Coming True?

Thanks, I'll read that and get back to you.

I think it is unlikely that these thing will destroy our culture unless something happens to cause change very quickly. It is more likely we will just change and adapt our culture to be more efficient as well as using new technologies to deal with these problems.

However we are getting very off topic.

I'm not talking about our culture, I'm talking about our civilization: the model of social organization that allows me - despite my modest resources - to sit on a chair built in Korea from wood grown right outside my door, munching on an apple plucked two days ago in New Zealand, sipping coffee grown in Guatemala, ground and packaged in some Polynesian Free Trade Zone and percolated through a plastic machine from China. That way of life is drawing to a close by the end of this century as far as I can tell, barring an incredible - and I mean absolutely astounding - technological advance that somehow manages to increase worldwide crop yields despite dramatic and unpredictable climate change and steadily rising oil prices. I know we haven't found it because the GM food vendors keep claiming GM is the answer, when in fact GM crop yields are lower, generally speaking.

 

[Panda]

I never claimed they did. Throughout all of my posts, I have referred to indigenous people AND Romani people, because I believe NEITHER should be subject to public policies with genocidal effect, regardless of intent.

We are just going round in circles here because I believe everyone should be subject to the same immigration laws and you do not neither of us seems willing or thinks they should change their mind. Though we can both agree on that what France has done being wrong.

There are no alternatives that are equally cheap and portable. The end of cheap, abundant energy is the risk. Peak oil is often misrepresented as the fear of the tap running dry. In fact, it is the understanding that our infrastructure, which took hundreds of years to develop, has become increasingly oil-based for the past hundred years or so, and now is almost completely oil-based. Oil prices fluctuate much faster than new technologies are developed. IOW, unless someone is building thousands of solar-powered ocean freighters right this very minute, our global economic system is still almost entirely precariously perched on the widespread availability of cheap oil, and will be for decades to come.

I would disagree with this and so would an awful lot of people in the field. The fact that we are, in the UK anyway, building a huge amount of new Wind Farms both on and off shore and seeing massive investment and progress in these new technologies.

Again, it is not the availability of water, but the availability of cheap, abundant water that poses the risk. Israel, for example, has established farmland in a desert by irrigating her crops with water from deep aquifers that are millions of years old and quickly becoming depleted. Unless Israel is already working on a massive desalination project - enough to irrigate all her food growing regions - her water situation is precarious and volatile. And don't get me started with India and Pakistan.

Israel produces desalinated water at about 0.26 USD per metre cubed and by 2013 could be producing 718 millions gallons of water this way. Desalination technology is another thing that has been improving and coming down in price.

I agree that things can be done to mitigate these risks, but I also observe that very little is being done, which means the **** can hit the fan much faster than we can build an alternative waste treatment and air conditioning system to avoid the impending mess.

Stuff is being done, over here anyway. Scotland should be generating 40% of our electricity from renewable by 2020 with current levels at around 17% I believe.

I'm not talking about our culture, I'm talking about our civilization: the model of social organization that allows me - despite my modest resources - to sit on a chair built in Korea from wood grown right outside my door, munching on an apple plucked two days ago in New Zealand, sipping coffee grown in Guatemala, ground and packaged in some Polynesian Free Trade Zone and percolated through a plastic machine from China. That way of life is drawing to a close by the end of this century as far as I can tell, barring an incredible - and I mean absolutely astounding - technological advance that somehow manages to increase worldwide crop yields despite dramatic and unpredictable climate change and steadily rising oil prices. I know we haven't found it because the GM food vendors keep claiming GM is the answer, when in fact GM crop yields are lower, generally speaking.

Our civilisation is not a static thing, it never has been. Look how much it has changed in the last 50 years. Anyone who thinks it won't change just as much in the next 50 is an idiot. I think one of the key things about modern civilisation is its ability to change and evolve to meet the demands of the time.

 

[Alceste]

We are just going round in circles here because I believe everyone should be subject to the same immigration laws and you do not neither of us seems willing or thinks they should change their mind. Though we can both agree on that what France has done being wrong.

Yes, that's the main thing. I would not be as vocally opposed to their enforcement of their immigration policy if it weren't for the targeted crackdown on a specific minority group. Handled on a case-by-case basis, there are so many shades of gray I would generally defer to the judgment of immigration tribunals, provided there are robust checks against racial profiling and discrimination in these institutions.

I would disagree with this and so would an awful lot of people in the field. The fact that we are, in the UK anyway, building a huge amount of new Wind Farms both on and off shore and seeing massive investment and progress in these new technologies.

And shipping? What is the alternative to cheap, abundant oil? Domestic electricity supply is not the elephant in the room that peak oil doomers are trying to call attention to.

Israel produces desalinated water at about 0.26 USD per metre cubed and by 2013 could be producing 718 millions gallons of water this way. Desalination technology is another thing that has been improving and coming down in price.

Thanks, I'll look into it. If desalinated water a genuinely viable replacement for fossil aquifers in irrigated deserts, that will be one worry off the table. However, there's still India and Pakistan to think about.

Stuff is being done, over here anyway. Scotland should be generating 40% of our electricity from renewable by 2020 with current levels at around 17% I believe.

See above, domestic electricity is a small fraction of our fossil fuel consumption. What we need to consider is how to get the food produced by our global, extremely specialized monoculture farming methods distributed when oil is no longer affordable, or when shipping interests can't get bonds to guarantee their goods due to a lack of liquidity in the financial system.

Our civilisation is not a static thing, it never has been. Look how much it has changed in the last 50 years. Anyone who thinks it won't change just as much in the next 50 is an idiot. I think one of the key things about modern civilisation is its ability to change and evolve to meet the demands of the time.

Can you give me an example of our civilization previously reaching the maximum extent of its resources and "bouncing back"? I can think of only one: Oil.

Edit: make that two: oil and colonial adventurism.

 

[Panda]

Yes, that's the main thing. I would not be as vocally opposed to their enforcement of their immigration policy if it weren't for the targeted crackdown on a specific minority group. Handled on a case-by-case basis, there are so many shades of gray I would generally defer to the judgment of immigration tribunals, provided there are robust checks against racial profiling and discrimination in these institutions.

I agree with this

And shipping? What is the alternative to cheap, abundant oil? Domestic electricity supply is not the elephant in the room that peak oil doomers are trying to call attention to.

Ironically they are looking at the past for some of the answer to this in the form of a giant kite. Apparently it should cut fuel usage by 20%. Not a total solution but an interesting one

Thanks, I'll look into it. If desalinated water a genuinely viable replacement for fossil aquifers in irrigated deserts, that will be one worry off the table. However, there's still India and Pakistan to think about.

India is actually technologically advanced it could probably do a similar thing.

See above, domestic electricity is a small fraction of our fossil fuel consumption. What we need to consider is how to get the food produced by our global, extremely specialized monoculture farming methods distributed when oil is no longer affordable, or when shipping interests can't get bonds to guarantee their goods due to a lack of liquidity in the financial system.

Industrial use counts for 37%, Transportation 20%, Residential uses 11% and commercial use 5%. The rest is lost in generation and transmission.

On the transportation side hybrid engines do rather well and over here are being introduced into the public sector.

Hydrogen fuel is being looked at as well with a recent fairly large study in I think 8 European cities on hydrogen buses (only one I looked at was London) though that relies on better ways at producing hydrogen. The study seemed to conclude that it was good but without a way to produce it better was not really very worthwhile.

Biofuels are also fairly interesting though I need to learn more about them.

Can you give me an example of our civilization previously reaching the maximum extent of its resources and "bouncing back"? I can think of only one: Oil.

We haven't reached the maximum extent of our resources just the maximum extent of the ones we seem to use there are a lot of untapped resources which we NEED to start using. A lot of things I read in Engineering & Technology (E&T) tend to suggest that the future will see us replace oil with lots of different technologies and not just use one resource. E&T is published by the IET, the professional body for all forms of Electrical and Electronic Engineering in the UK.

Just as an aside we have enough coal reserves to provide at our current rate for something like 150 years. Clean coal is quite an interesting resource.

And as a further aside we should probably take this to another thread if want to continue it.

 

[Alceste]

India is actually technologically advanced it could probably do a similar thing.

It's Pakistan's reliance on rivers that originate in India (from mountain ice packs that are rapidly depleting due to climate change) and the long-standing tension between those two nuclear armed countries that raises concerns.

Hydrogen fuel is being looked at as well with a recent fairly large study in I think 8 European cities on hydrogen buses (only one I looked at was London) though that relies on better ways at producing hydrogen. The study seemed to conclude that it was good but without a way to produce it better was not really very worthwhile.

Yep, the common criticism of hydrogen is that it is an energy sink: It requires more energy to produce than can be stored in the resulting hydrogen fuel. So, running buses on it at this stage is (IMO) both a publicity stunt and a waste of resources.

Biofuels are also fairly interesting though I need to learn more about them.

Oil-rich algae that can be grown in saline environments is the most promising so far, but biofuels of any kind are not widespread enough at this time to be a hedge against the consequences of peak oil, which is happening right now.

We haven't reached the maximum extent of our resources just the maximum extent of the ones we seem to use there are a lot of untapped resources which we NEED to start using. A lot of things I read in Engineering & Technology (E&T) tend to suggest that the future will see us replace oil with lots of different technologies and not just use one resource. E&T is published by the IET, the professional body for all forms of Electrical and Electronic Engineering in the UK.

Just as an aside we have enough coal reserves to provide at our current rate for something like 150 years. Clean coal is quite an interesting resource.

And as a further aside we should probably take this to another thread if want to continue it.

Do we currently have enough ships, trains and trucks operating on "clean coal" to weather the impact of oil prices spiking into the hundreds per barrel and maintain our access to critical resources? If not, it isn't going to be much use to us over the next couple of decades.

Study Warns of Finite Oil and Economic Crisis - NYTimes.com

I agree though, we have certainly wandered off topic, but in my little brain all these issues are inter-related. Subsistence cultures are infinitely valuable because they are resilient, while ours is not. IF anything goes terribly wrong here and the groceries get too costly, my bug-out plan is to go native. IOW, go and join a community that has never entirely given up a subsistence model of social organization and learn how to support myself from them.

Granted, that's got nothing to do with gypsies. lol. I suppose if we're going to stop trying to force indigenous people to assimilate we might as well lay off the gypsies while we're at it.