Mass deportations to the East

[kai]

EU turning blind eye to discrimination against Roma, say human rights groups | World news | The Guardian



Scapegoating will not solve 'Roma problem' | Rob Kushen | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk




And for those interested in the indigenous peoples of Europe: Indigenous peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EDIT: Things aren't really that bad in Romania and Bulgaria, are they?
ERRC.org - European Roma Rights Centre


Oh. They are. Read the article; it gets better. Or worse, depending on how you see it.

Are you suggesting its reached a stage in Romania and Bulgaria that the Roma are in fact refugees? or seeking asylum?




On Thursday, after a meeting between French and Romanian ministers in Bucharest, France agreed to help Romania integrate its Roma community into mainstream society to encourage them to stay in the country.



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/13/world/europe/13france.html

 

[Alceste]

On Thursday, after a meeting between French and Romanian ministers in Bucharest, France agreed to help Romania integrate its Roma community into mainstream society to encourage them to stay in the country.

Any meeting to determine the fate of an ethnic minority that is not attended and significantly influenced by representatives of that minority ought to be considered highly suspect. That is, if we're committed to avoiding genocidal public policies such as forced assimilation. If we feel somebody else's culture (never ours, strangely) ought to be crushed for their own good whether they like it or not, of course this kind of meeting is ideal.

The rest of that article is about internal documents proving France is targeting a specific ethnic minority for persecution rather than enforcing immigration laws impartially, as they claim publicly. Can I ask why you chose to quote that single sentence and none of the others? Do you feel it supports your position or do you simply think it's an interesting detail?

 

[kai]

Any meeting to determine the fate of an ethnic minority that is not attended and significantly influenced by representatives of that minority ought to be considered highly suspect. That is, if we're committed to avoiding genocidal public policies such as forced assimilation. If we feel somebody else's culture (never ours, strangely) ought to be crushed for their own good whether they like it or not, of course this kind of meeting is ideal.

But there are around 400,000 Roma in France who have French citizenship who cannot be deported this is about Romanian and Bulgarian citizens who do not have residency permits to stay in France.

The rest of that article is about internal documents proving France is targeting a specific ethnic minority for persecution rather than enforcing immigration laws impartially, as they claim publicly. Can I ask why you chose to quote that single sentence and none of the others? Do you feel it supports your position or do you simply think it's an interesting detail?

I used it to to show Romanian involvement in taking back its citizens,Its just a sentence to introduce the link:


If this was solely based on being Roma how do you reconcile the fact that the vast majority of Roma in France( the ones with French citizenship around 400,000) are not being deported? Is this a case of France expelling illegal aliens and people using the race card ? I don't get it! If you want to live in France or anywhere else for that matter you have to go through certain formalities if you don't you will be deported , its the same in the UK, The same in the US,the same in Canada surely?


They are targeting Roma without residency because they are the largest group or illegal aliens, if they were targetting all Roma i would agree with it being wrong , right now I think its an illegal alien problem not a race one.

 

[Bismillah]

kai: The crackdowns targeting the Roma communities are comprised of mostly French citizens. Do you condone the actions of the French government who bulldozed their houses and communities. Seems like apartheid to me.

 

[Alceste]

I used it to to show Romanian involvement in taking back its citizens,Its just a sentence to introduce the link:

* Sigh *. It seems as though you just can't see any ethical problem with the targeted, systematic dismantling of the culture of an ethnic minority without the people affected having any say in their own destiny. If this is the case, there is simply no way we will ever see eye to eye.

If this was solely based on being Roma how do you reconcile the fact that the vast majority of Roma in France( the ones with French citizenship around 400,000) are not being deported? Is this a case of France expelling illegal aliens and people using the race card ? I don't get it! If you want to live in France or anywhere else for that matter you have to go through certain formalities if you don't you will be deported , its the same in the UK, The same in the US,the same in Canada surely?

Reconcile? Lol. Where are they supposed to deport the French ones TO? They've bulldozed their homes and I'm sure they wish they could go further, but I can't imagine they can legally justify shipping them off to Antarctica or something.

In the Canada, we have certain ethnic minorities whose culture is so dramatically different from ours that they cannot be reconciled unless their culture is completely crushed and their people assimilated. Those people have special status, recourse to the courts and a voice in their own destiny. The days of the residential schools and other forced assimilation policies are over. They didn't work. They did more harm than good. We've seen the error of our ways. We've repented. We've recognized these policies were utterly, indefensibly evil and had no redeeming qualities whatsoever besides flattering our cultural narcissism. Rather than draw them into the fold of our superior civilization, we drove them to poverty, misery, violence, suicide, drug and alcohol addiction, crime and death.

They are targeting Roma without residency because they are the largest group or illegal aliens, if they were targetting all Roma i would agree with it being wrong , right now I think its an illegal alien problem not a race one.

The internal documents the article you linked to state repeatedly that Roma people were to be the top priority in the clearing of 300 unsanctioned campsites. If you can read that article and still claim France is not targeting the Roma people, then I don't know what to say to you. I guess we have radically different standards of what constitutes racial persecution.

 

[kai]

kai: The crackdowns targeting the Roma communities are comprised of mostly French citizens. Do you condone the actions of the French government who bulldozed their houses and communities. Seems like apartheid to me.

Ok but i haven't seen any reference to French Roma being deported do you have a source? And whats wrong with just going through the legal channels and Immigrating like everybody else . Do you think the Roma could get on a boat and come and set up camp in Arizona without Papers and visas and documentation?

 

[kai]

* Sigh *. It seems as though you just can't see any ethical problem with the targeted, systematic dismantling of the culture of an ethnic minority without the people affected having any say in their own destiny. If this is the case, there is simply no way we will ever see eye to eye. sure i have a problem with that! but thats not what is happening they are dismantling illegal encampments we do it here if a group just turns up and builds an encampment without Planning permission it ultimately gets demolishged and they are moved on i dont see the difference except France has a greater number of illegal encampments than us. and what exactly is being dismantled culturally speaking? camps? the nomadic lifestyle? what?



Reconcile? Lol. Where are they supposed to deport the French ones TO? They've bulldozed their homes and I'm sure they wish they could go further, but I can't imagine they can legally justify shipping them off to Antarctica or something. They are not deporting the French ones thats my point only Romanian and Bulgarian citizens. even French citizens cant just build a camp wherever they feel like it and live there.In fact if i went and built a house in the UK without Planning etc eventually the Authorities would bulldoze it.

In the Canada, we have certain ethnic minorities whose culture is so dramatically different from ours that they cannot be reconciled unless their culture is completely crushed and their people assimilated. Those people have special status, recourse to the courts and a voice in their own destiny. The days of the residential schools and other forced assimilation policies are over. They didn't work. They did more harm than good. We've seen the error of our ways. We've repented. We've recognized these policies were utterly, indefensibly evil and had no redeeming qualities whatsoever besides flattering our cultural narcissism. Rather than draw them into the fold of our superior civilization, we drove them to poverty, misery, violence, suicide, drug and alcohol addiction, crime and death.

The internal documents the article you linked to state repeatedly that Roma people were to be the top priority in the clearing of 300 unsanctioned campsites. If you can read that article and still claim France is not targeting the Roma people, then I don't know what to say to you. I guess we have radically different standards of what constitutes racial persecution.

I agree the Roma are top priority but i am saying that the reason they are top priority is the are top of the league for illegal encampments.

Look i know you beleive the Roma should be able to roam and camp wherever they want but the French have Borders and immigration control , Planning regulations etc and everyone knows it. In an ideal world we could forget immigration and borders and taxes and social welfare and just meander around the world living off our wits but that not the way it is.

And North America is a different kettle of fish to France , France has been a Nation state for a darn site longer that Canada, you still have aboriginal people who have had to put up with Europeans just wandering in and setting up camp on their land and i bet they would like to repatriate Canadians if they had their way.

 

[Bismillah]

kai: I don't think the French are deporting French citizens, but I think the problem is that they are specifically targeting Roma communities.

During this crackdown, Roma were reportedly only permitted to grab a few bags of their belongings before the bulldozer dismantled their settlement.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...ckdown-in-france_100418405.html#ixzz0zObjnIBNhttp://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...ed-at-roma-crackdown-in-france_100418405.html

Now there are many different ethnicity that migrate to France in large numbers with Spain, Portugal, and Italy contributing the most as well as those from Africa and the South East. Yet, French authorities are specifically targeting the Roma community. This does seem like a racist policy implemented by the French.

As to why many don't wait to get naturalized legally, France has stricter immigration laws then many contemporary EU countries. Given the living conditions in Romania it's not surprising many attempt to move illegally.

As for Arizona, since we are a landlocked state it would be impossible for the Roma to move here by boat But I'm sure if they were able to they'd find it relatively easy to reside here illegally.
​

 

[Alceste]

I agree the Roma are top priority but i am saying that the reason they are top priority is the are top of the league for illegal encampments.

Look i know you beleive the Roma should be able to roam and camp wherever they want but the French have Borders and immigration control , Planning regulations etc and everyone knows it. In an ideal world we could forget immigration and borders and taxes and social welfare and just meander around the world living off our wits but that not the way it is.

And North America is a different kettle of fish to France , France has been a Nation state for a darn site longer that Canada, you still have aboriginal people who have had to put up with Europeans just wandering in and setting up camp on their land and i bet they would like to repatriate Canadians if they had their way.

France could consider establishing legal camps with water and electricity rather than simply wantonly destoying the homes of both French and non-French gypsies, hoping to leave them with no choice but to scatter and try to assimilate with the mainstream in their country of origin. Rome, for example, has a few legal camps with water and electricity, but not enough to accommodate everyone.

Anyway, with respect to the question "what should we do about the [insert persecuted, impoverished ethnic minority here]?" The answer is ask them what they want and see if there is any possible way to accommodate them. Either that or leave them be. "Bulldoze their houses and kick out as many of them as you legally can" is not the first thing that comes to my mind, but then I'm not Sarkoczy (Sarkozy? Whatever.)

 

[Panda]

France could consider establishing legal camps with water and electricity rather than simply wantonly destoying the homes of both French and non-French gypsies, hoping to leave them with no choice but to scatter and try to assimilate with the mainstream in their country of origin. Rome, for example, has a few legal camps with water and electricity, but not enough to accommodate everyone.

Or here's an idea how about the buy or rent the areas of land like everyone else has to? Then with the correct planning permission they can do what they want on the land.

Anyway, with respect to the question "what should we do about the [insert persecuted, impoverished ethnic minority here]?" The answer is ask them what they want and see if there is any possible way to accommodate them. Either that or leave them be. "Bulldoze their houses and kick out as many of them as you legally can" is not the first thing that comes to my mind, but then I'm not Sarkoczy (Sarkozy? Whatever.)

True they should ask them and start from there but they should still remove illegal camps or keep them while the talks are on going and once a solution is reached remove them.

 

[kai]

France could consider establishing legal camps with water and electricity rather than simply wantonly destoying the homes of both French and non-French gypsies, hoping to leave them with no choice but to scatter and try to assimilate with the mainstream in their country of origin. Rome, for example, has a few legal camps with water and electricity, but not enough to accommodate everyone. How many is everyone? do the French get a say in how many camps or is that down to the Roma to decidee?

Anyway, with respect to the question "what should we do about the [insert persecuted, impoverished ethnic minority here]?" The answer is

ask them what they want

and see if there is any possible way to accommodate them. Either that or leave them be. "Bulldoze their houses and kick out as many of them as you legally can" is not the first thing that comes to my mind, but then I'm not Sarkoczy (Sarkozy? Whatever.)[/QUOTE]


What they want, is to do what they want,---isnt it?

 

[kai]

kai: I don't think the French are deporting French citizens, but I think the problem is that they are specifically targeting Roma communities.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...ckdown-in-france_100418405.html#ixzz0zObjnIBNhttp://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...ed-at-roma-crackdown-in-france_100418405.html

Now there are many different ethnicity that migrate to France in large numbers with Spain, Portugal, and Italy contributing the most as well as those from Africa and the South East. Yet, French authorities are specifically targeting the Roma community. This does seem like a racist policy implemented by the French.

It doesnt matter where your from they will deport you if you dont have the necessary papers. But i wonder do the Spanish,Portugese and Africans set up camp sites around the country? I don't recall Moroccan or Algerian illegal encampments being mentioned

As to why many don't wait to get naturalized legally, France has stricter immigration laws then many contemporary EU countries. Given the living conditions in Romania it's not surprising many attempt to move illegally.

So you admit its a legal issue

As for Arizona, since we are a landlocked state it would be impossible for the Roma to move here by boat But I'm sure if they were able to they'd find it relatively easy to reside here illegally.
​

Boat then train then walk to Arizona the land of opportunity awaits ,they can come and live with you Abibi , those that don't want to go and live with Alceste in canada that is.:yes:

 

[Bismillah]

kai: The article mentions that the French are cracking down on illegal settlements and then goes on to mention that they are focusing particularly on the Roma. Therefore, it is safe to conclude that their are other minorities outside of the Roma who are residing in established illegal camps.

Yes, it's a legal problem. As in what the French are doing is illegal under EU law not to target one ethnic group for any national policy. Contrary to their earlier claims, it is clear that this crackdown, which has promised to rid France of 25,000 illegal aliens by the end of the year has hastened their pace and in the process human rights violations have been reported.

French interior ministry ordered police to single out Roma, memo shows - Telegraph

I am most strongly against their treatment of their own citizens and the fact that they are going back on their word and law to treat instances in a case by case basis and instead arbitrarily crack down on the Roma community.

 

[Alceste]

Or here's an idea how about the buy or rent the areas of land like everyone else has to? Then with the correct planning permission they can do what they want on the land.

Because they are poor. They're not living in ramshackle hovels with no water or electricity so they won't have to tap into their millions in savings.

True they should ask them and start from there but they should still remove illegal camps or keep them while the talks are on going and once a solution is reached remove them.

I agree with that, but the sad fact is the Romani are hated by the political right, like poor people everywhere. The French government doesn't want to help them, but to destroy their culture.

 

[Alceste]

What they want, is to do what they want,---isnt it?

I suppose you would have to ask them, but don't we ALL want to do what we want? The government should have clear, empirically supportable ethical arguments and and laws that are defensible on these terms if they wish to intervene. The law is not an end in itself, but a means to an end. Justice is the higher purpose laws are meant to serve, not cultural homogeneity.

 

[croak]

If this was solely based on being Roma how do you reconcile the fact that the vast majority of Roma in France( the ones with French citizenship around 400,000) are not being deported?

Actually, that's the number of Travellers in France. The Roma are a subset and number around 15,000 to 20,000.

You can't deport your own citizens. However, they do seem to be deporting quite a lot — and it seems to be more of a stunt than anything.

France Deports Roma Gypsies: Sign of Growing Xenophobia? - TIME

How, then, might opponents force Sarkozy to alter his anti-Roma drive? Perhaps by pointing out that despite the attention Sarkozy is drawing to the operation, his latest push is not new — nor does it work. Last year alone, around 10,000 Roma — or two-thirds of their estimated population in France — were deported, most with French taxpayer money in their pockets. Virtually all returned to France weeks later, according to international Roma organizations. Also, prior to Thursday's deportations, 25 similar flights returned Roma to Bulgaria and Romania since January. The total for 2009 was 44 flights. Meaning, there's nothing new to the current French expulsion of Roma except the shouting — and a crass calculation to win votes through xenophobia.

​

Ah, this was what I was looking for:

France: Anger as Sarkozy Says Gypsies Pose Crime Problem - TIME

That such prejudice endures is partly the fault of France's authorities. Despite laws requiring that towns whose populations exceed 5,000 provide suitable camping grounds for traveler communities, France was recently chided by the Council of Europe for largely ignoring that obligation. Nomadic communities are often relegated to staying outside town walls, usually either in makeshift camps with few facilities supplied to them, or — for the poorest — in shantytowns and squats. That segregation means few urban French know much about travelers or the diversity of the traveling community. The generic label gens du voyage (travelers) covers not only tsigane (roughly "gypsies"), who went to France over the centuries, but also manouches who arrived from Germany in the 19th century, Spanish-origin gitanes and the more recent Roma.

​

 

[.lava]

UN warns France over Roma deportations - Telegraph

Treating a whole ethnic group as criminal and then deporting them East. This is disgusting.

It is also worth bearing in mind when we hear Sarkozy or his cronies attack Islam. They are fascists.

IMO racism and fascism is rising in Europe once more. does not surprise me anymore. but it is very unfortunate it is not only France

.

 

[kai]

I suppose you would have to ask them, but don't we ALL want to do what we want? The government should have clear, empirically supportable ethical arguments and and laws that are defensible on these terms if they wish to intervene. The law is not an end in itself, but a means to an end. Justice is the higher purpose laws are meant to serve, not cultural homogeneity.

we may all want to "do what we want" but there are rules and regulations to adhere to. Thats a fact of life , its also a fact of life that if you want to reside in France you need a permit. Sad as it is, its a fact.

 

[kai]

kai: The article mentions that the French are cracking down on illegal settlements and then goes on to mention that they are focusing particularly on the Roma. Therefore, it is safe to conclude that their are other minorities outside of the Roma who are residing in established illegal camps.

Yes, it's a legal problem. As in what the French are doing is illegal under EU law not to target one ethnic group for any national policy. Contrary to their earlier claims, it is clear that this crackdown, which has promised to rid France of 25,000 illegal aliens by the end of the year has hastened their pace and in the process human rights violations have been reported.

French interior ministry ordered police to single out Roma, memo shows - Telegraph

I am most strongly against their treatment of their own citizens and the fact that they are going back on their word and law to treat instances in a case by case basis and instead arbitrarily crack down on the Roma community.

Oh yes the memo is a big mistake the PC brigade will make the most of that and someone is going to lose their job over it.


When trying to dismantle hundreds of illegal encampments and deport thousands of illegal aliens ,one musnt mention their ethnicity its just not cricket.

what do we do ignore the fact the camp is illegal ,ignore the fact they are there illegally and throw away the rule of law in France and declare open house . The French are entitled to enforce their immigration laws however if they cant do it without falling foul of their own laws then they need to think again.They should have known the PC brigade would jump on them like a ton of bricks if they stray from the letter of the law like not specifically targeting an ethnic minority even if they are breaking the law.

 

[kai]

Maybe the French should take a leaf out of our book and throw them a party.

Saturday's event will include traditional Roma bands, dancing, bouncy castles, story telling and even Nintendo Wii games competitions. Food and drink is also laid on.
Illegal gipsy sites in Warwickshire have become a major problem for the police, who hope that the party will ease tensions between the force and travellers.


Police force hosts party for gypsies to improve relations with travellers - Telegraph