Mass deportations to the East

[Alceste]

Maybe the French should take a leaf out of our book and throw them a party.

Saturday's event will include traditional Roma bands, dancing, bouncy castles, story telling and even Nintendo Wii games competitions. Food and drink is also laid on.
Illegal gipsy sites in Warwickshire have become a major problem for the police, who hope that the party will ease tensions between the force and travellers.


Police force hosts party for gypsies to improve relations with travellers - Telegraph

See? Now that's more like it.

 

[kai]

See? Now that's more like it.

Oh i am sure there will be more like it. The Police wont want to upset minorities even if the are trespassing on someone else's property.


This may be of interest:

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/9547/

and this:

Should French tax-payers have to pay for schools and services and training to yank their families up to minimally acceptable French living standards?

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...-sarkozy-is-right-about-the-roma-2068991.html

 

[croak]

Oh i am sure there will be more like it. The Police wont want to upset minorities even if the are trespassing on someone else's property.


This may be of interest:

Why Sarkozy has declared war on his own population | spiked

A few factual errors (number of Roma, those that attacked the police station were from another Traveller group), but it sounds interesting. If only Muzet's article was in English.

The trouble, as Muzet points out, is that this is just a ‘presidential gesture without real effect on people’s daily lives’. The opinion polls barely flickered throughout the summer offensive. Because it was just a performance that the French people watched on TV, it did not move them. The main result of these symbolic attacks is to further aggravate relations between the state and minorities, and to accentuate the distance between police forces and the people.


Of course, this aggravation is justified. The vast majority of the Roma had done absolutely nothing wrong; their rounding up was a senseless act of state aggression. It is illiberal and against all principles of equality to strip nationality from French people ‘of foreign origin’ who have committed certain crimes that come with a prison sentence of five or more years, when a French person of good Gallic stock would simply serve their time and rejoin society.

and this:

Should French tax-payers have to pay for schools and services and training to yank their families up to minimally acceptable French living standards?

Mary Dejevsky: Sarkozy is right about the Roma - Mary Dejevsky, Commentators - The Independent

This article slowly got on my nerves... and then gave me good reason (I think) to take offence with the author. (emphasis mine)

When Italy faced a similar problem a couple of years ago, the government stood by and turned a blind eye to some pretty nasty vigilantism. In France, it has not come to that, perhaps because Mr Sarkozy acted. In condemning him, however, you need to have an alternative to offer, and it is pretty hard to find one. There are whole families living without sanitation, without utilities, working in the black economy if at all, whose life in France is nonetheless more pleasant and profitable than it probably was, or ever would be, where they came from. There is no reason for them to return. As it is, though, they are parasites on a state of civilisation, material and cultural, they have done nothing to build and could not reproduce for themselves.

That is the bald, and politically incorrect, truth. Deportation could well produce an eternally revolving population as deportees try to make their way back. But should French tax-payers have to pay for schools and services and training to yank Roma families up to minimally acceptable French living standards? Should France be expected to facilitate the sort of integration that Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia and other countries have shirked? And if not, can, or should, the Roma be exempt from the freedom of movement that applies across the European Union, even though it is already practically impossible to enforce? It is disingenuous to insist that such contrasting living standards and expectations existing side by side are easily manageable and that the newcomers can be smoothly accommodated, if at all, without huge outlays of money and goodwill. Nor is the challenge represented by the Roma unique.

Calling the Roma parasites? Are you SERIOUS? How is that a 'truth'? A whole ethnicity can be defined as parasites?

And since the author mentioned the Roma in Italy, here's an older article about the situation there: Seumas Milne: This persecution of Gypsies is now the shame of Europe | Comment is free | The Guardian Maybe it's just me, but it looks like they've done a heck of a lot more.

In the same week as Maroni was defending his racial registration plans in parliament, Italy's highest appeal court ruled that it was acceptable to discriminate against Roma on the grounds that "all Gypsies were thieves", rather than because of their "Gypsy nature".

That's just one tidbit.

I could write an entire essay, maybe even a thesis, on what I found wrong with Mary Dejevsky's article. It just makes me sick. Then again, there is freedom of the press, so she is free to say what she wants, just so long as it isn't outright racism.

 

[Alceste]

This article slowly got on my nerves... and then gave me good reason (I think) to take offence with the author. (emphasis mine)



Calling the Roma parasites? Are you SERIOUS? How is that a 'truth'? A whole ethnicity can be defined as parasites?

And since the author mentioned the Roma in Italy, here's an older article about the situation there: Seumas Milne: This persecution of Gypsies is now the shame of Europe | Comment is free | The Guardian Maybe it's just me, but it looks like they've done a heck of a lot more.


That's just one tidbit.

I could write an entire essay, maybe even a thesis, on what I found wrong with Mary Dejevsky's article. It just makes me sick. Then again, there is freedom of the press, so she is free to say what she wants, just so long as it isn't outright racism.

It got on my nerves too. In fact, I abandoned it after the first few paragraphs. I don't have the stomach for opinions based primarily on narcissistic cultural paternalism. IMO, an article about the problems of any minority is completely worthless if it doesn't include perspectives from within that group, or at least from someone with intimate, relevant insider knowledge. Without that, it's nothing more than huffing and puffing about the "white man's burden".

 

[Bismillah]

kai: Emphasis on illegal settlements, not Roma settlements. There are illegals from all across Europe but the French have found it ok to target one specific minority, a violation of EU legislation. Why is it ok to punish only one ethnicity while falsely claiming to be conducting their raids in an objective manner? Perhaps because it's easier to target and deport mass numbers of gypsies simply because no one has cared before and no one will care now.

Also, what is your view of the French bulldozing the houses of impoverished Roma who happen to be French citizens?

 

[kai]

kai: Emphasis on illegal settlements, not Roma settlements. There are illegals from all across Europe but the French have found it ok to target one specific minority, a violation of EU legislation. Why is it ok to punish only one ethnicity while falsely claiming to be conducting their raids in an objective manner? Perhaps because it's easier to target and deport mass numbers of gypsies simply because no one has cared before and no one will care now.

Also, what is your view of the French bulldozing the houses of impoverished Roma who happen to be French citizens?

What is it with France ? why are there so many illegals? and i understood it to mean that yes there are many illegals from all over and the Roma were the largest group. as for bulldozing houses of french citizens who happen to be Roma i suppose it just happens that the houses in question do not have planning permission. you would have to show me specific incidents really, to comment further.

From what i can gather this is a storm that was waiting to happen there are literally thousands upon thousands of illegal residents in France and eslewhere. The EU rule of freedom of movement is causing a very big problem.


the UN is calling on the European countries to help gypsies integrate into the society. so how do we do that when they are illegal? do we ignore the legalities and just let them come in ? what about everybody else in the EU who would like to live in France or the UK? Integration, is that what they want? i dont know that a nomadic lifestyle can be integrated into the uk well not in such huge numbers anyway. and does integration mean giving up the nomadic lifestyle and settling ? that's just plain old immigration isn't it?


It seems that there could be a Roma population of between 8-12 million in Europe, a lot of which are in eastern Europe ,with the EU boundaries now more an more encompassing eastern European countries, western European countries like France are having to put up with ilegal economic migrants. well that's answered my own question about France its not just France .Heres an article from 2005


http://www.migrationinformation.org/feature/display.cfm?ID=308


This obviously needs much more consultation between EU member states. Theres nothing stopping the Roma from walking straight back into France once they have been deported.

 

[MaybeSpartacus]

I don't live in Europe so I do not pretend to know the nuances. What I do know is the gypsy culture has existed for centuries. It predates the modern states of Europe. They have lived as they do and traveled freely, albeit not without discrimination for just as long. The only difference between then and now is the systems of governance over the lands. I do know it is wrong to simply deport them though. Perhaps the European Union should recognize them as a cultural nation across nations and give them some leniency as far as movement goes? Perhaps they should have their own Union identification, like a citizenship card or something that would work as well as ID of someone of another country. (As I understand the Union has a lot of cooperation in regards to member country citizens being able to freely work in others.) That way if a Roma wishes to settle down, as it were, it would work the same way. For those who wish to carry on traditionally, set aside some parcels of land for them to stay on while they are there. This wouldn't exempt them from the laws of the nation they are staying in, if a Roma commits I crime I suspect they should serve time. I don't have the answers, but treating them as France is is disrespectful to human rights. Getting rid of the "unwanted"... I guess the ghosts of the past are to be ignored. Meh. I don't know.

I ramble.

 

[Bismillah]

kai: From what I understand there are a variety of reasons France would seem like an attractive country to reside in from an illegal immigrant's point of view. They are known to be a fairly tolerant society and were described as "color blind" before this mess. I believe that they have strong welfare programs and while jobs may not be as readily available workers are seldom laid off. Also accessibility would play a big role I think. It would be easier to move to France than to move to an island country like England. Similarily in the states you see many illegals in Arizona and barely any up North in Michigan.

I don't have a problem with a country enforcing its immigration laws at all, but I am against the fact that the French have chosen to focus their efforts on one ethnicity. It seems like overall the Roma face discrimination and borderline hate everywhere they go. I read an article where children of illegals in Germany were deported back to Romania even though they'd face discrimination and be taught alongside the mentally ill. In the States the children of illegals born in America are citizens and I was surprised this wasn't the case in Germany.

On another note, when the French bulldozed the Roma's houses they gave them time to just pack a suitcase before their homes were demolished. This type of action honestly ****** me off. It's not enough that you're destroying their homes, and their life savings along with it, you are giving them just enough time before they're buried in the rubble themselves. I can't imagine the backlash an American politician would face if he did this to American citizens.

As long gypsies maintain a nomadic lifestyle they shouldn't be evicted from their host countries. The key is to define how long a nomad stays in one period. Perhaps a year half a year whatever should be the total amount of time a gypsie can spend in one country/region/locality. If they inhabit a location longer than that their status as a nomad could be revoked and they could be viewed as illegal immigrants. If a gypsie wishes to live in a country in the long term, then yes legal channels that everyone is required to go through should be pursued.

This is what has been happening for a while now. The French authorities deport a huge percentage of the Roma, even funding them and chartering them a plane, and the majority of these people find themselves in France the next year. Obviously an alternative has to be found because this just isn't working.

 

[kai]

kai: From what I understand there are a variety of reasons France would seem like an attractive country to reside in from an illegal immigrant's point of view. They are known to be a fairly tolerant society and were described as "color blind" before this mess. I believe that they have strong welfare programs and while jobs may not be as readily available workers are seldom laid off. Also accessibility would play a big role I think. It would be easier to move to France than to move to an island country like England. Similarily in the states you see many illegals in Arizona and barely any up North in Michigan.

I don't have a problem with a country enforcing its immigration laws at all, but I am against the fact that the French have chosen to focus their efforts on one ethnicity. It seems like overall the Roma face discrimination and borderline hate everywhere they go. I read an article where children of illegals in Germany were deported back to Romania even though they'd face discrimination and be taught alongside the mentally ill. In the States the children of illegals born in America are citizens and I was surprised this wasn't the case in Germany.

On another note, when the French bulldozed the Roma's houses they gave them time to just pack a suitcase before their homes were demolished. This type of action honestly ****** me off. It's not enough that you're destroying their homes, and their life savings along with it, you are giving them just enough time before they're buried in the rubble themselves. I can't imagine the backlash an American politician would face if he did this to American citizens.

As long gypsies maintain a nomadic lifestyle they shouldn't be evicted from their host countries. The key is to define how long a nomad stays in one period. Perhaps a year half a year whatever should be the total amount of time a gypsie can spend in one country/region/locality. If they inhabit a location longer than that their status as a nomad could be revoked and they could be viewed as illegal immigrants. If a gypsie wishes to live in a country in the long term, then yes legal channels that everyone is required to go through should be pursued.

This is what has been happening for a while now. The French authorities deport a huge percentage of the Roma, even funding them and chartering them a plane, and the majority of these people find themselves in France the next year. Obviously an alternative has to be found because this just isn't working.

i agree it isnt working and the French will have to think again because "it isnt working" the Roma can just literally walk back in and stay for 3 months. I think the EU needs to look at this as a whole, it could potentially be a massive problem with people leaving new Eastern European Member countries as economic migrants. The system needs looking at because this isn't just France this is happening all over. Like you say we are buffered by the English channel or i am sure we would be dealing with it too .

 

[Bismillah]

I think the main reason of this influx of immigrants, as always, is economic disparity. They go where the money is. I'm not sure how the politics of the EU work but could this perhaps pass legislation authorizing a loan of some sort to help countries like Romania expand their job markets etc. etc. That and working to ensure that these Eastern countries adopt better human rights policies because I've read numerous articles of the discrimination and prejudices the Roma face in their own "home country". This would cure the problem at the source I believe.

 

[kai]

I think the main reason of this influx of immigrants, as always, is economic disparity. They go where the money is. I'm not sure how the politics of the EU work but could this perhaps pass legislation authorizing a loan of some sort to help countries like Romania expand their job markets etc. etc. That and working to ensure that these Eastern countries adopt better human rights policies because I've read numerous articles of the discrimination and prejudices the Roma face in their own "home country". This would cure the problem at the source I believe.

that's the problem with the EU, each country has a different standard of living so people think "I am off" to France or the UK or wherever . EU policy is a big balls up if you ask me. Thank goodness for the English channel that's all i can say.

Its all very well calling us all Europeans and opening borders for free movement did none of those idiots in Brussels think this might happen, did not one of them think hold on a minute we might get thousands of people just wandering into countries and expecting to live there.

 

[Bismillah]

I agree this policy is a bit puzzling

Do you know what the advantages are to these rules? Freedom of movement enhances ties between EU members?

 

[kai]

I agree this policy is a bit puzzling

Do you know what the advantages are to these rules?

Freedom of movement enhances ties between EU members?

What about the discord between members because of illegal immigration we had a difference of opinion with France over illegals entering the UK.

Its OK having freedom of movement but that's not freedom to settle is it.
Its all smoke and mirrors the ordinary person already had freedom of movement no one stopped you going on holiday did they ? What is causing the problem is people moving into another country because its wealthier and living there without so much of a by or leave and ignoring regulations.

Thats not what Europeans want whatever the Mandarins in Brussels say with their united states of Europe dream/nightmare.I am afraid you have to have controlled immigration people pay taxes for an infrastructure you cant just open borders and welcome one and all.

 

[croak]

i dont know that a nomadic lifestyle can be integrated into the uk well not in such huge numbers anyway. and does integration mean giving up the nomadic lifestyle and settling ? that's just plain old immigration isn't it?

How about Irish Travellers?
Also, integration is not assimilation.

Integrate | Define Integrate at Dictionary.com

4.to give or cause to give equal opportunity and consideration to (a racial, religious, or ethnic group or a member of such a group): to integrate minority groups in the school system.

5.to combine (educational facilities, classes, and the like, previously segregated by race) into one unified system; desegregate.

6.to give or cause to give members of all races, religions, and ethnic groups an equal opportunity to belong to, be employed by, be customers of, or vote in (an organization, place of business, city, state, etc.): to integrate a restaurant; to integrate a country club.

 

[Alceste]

I agree this policy is a bit puzzling

Do you know what the advantages are to these rules? Freedom of movement enhances ties between EU members?

There are lots of jobs the Brits and the French refuse to do, especially in agriculture. The freedom of movement provides these sectors with a pretty much limitless pool of cheap, hard working labour.

 

[Bismillah]

There are lots of jobs the Brits and the French refuse to do, especially in agriculture. The freedom of movement provides these sectors with a pretty much limitless pool of cheap, hard working labour.

Ah, so this is really just aimed at seasonal jobs like the fruit pickers in Arizona and California? I'm interested then, do they deport these migrant workers seasonally? After the job is finished that is. Also there has to be a limit in demand for these menial jobs. What's the plan once immigrants keep piling up but there's no more jobs? Deport them? Is that what we are currently seeing?

 

[kai]

How about Irish Travellers?
Also, integration is not assimilation.

Integrate | Define Integrate at Dictionary.com

What about Irish travellers? to compare the relatively small numbers to what is going on in France is not really fair


its numbers isn't it i know we couldnt handle the kind of numbers France is dealing with.

 

[kai]

There are lots of jobs the Brits and the French refuse to do, especially in agriculture. The freedom of movement provides these sectors with a pretty much limitless pool of cheap, hard working labour.

Thats right! there's a pool of cheap labour there alright, but its seasonal and if you come and pick fruit or vegetables you still cant come and live here without the necessary paperwork for longer than 3 months.and Romanian and Bulgarian citizens need a work permit or an accession worker card. If you just cross the border and set up a camp after 3 months you will be deported just like in France.

 

[Alceste]

Ah, so this is really just aimed at seasonal jobs like the fruit pickers in Arizona and California? I'm interested then, do they deport these migrant workers seasonally? After the job is finished that is. Also there has to be a limit in demand for these menial jobs. What's the plan once immigrants keep piling up but there's no more jobs? Deport them? Is that what we are currently seeing?

Not really. There is year round agriculture work, not to mention all kinds of other menial and low paid work that Brits are not willing to do. I talked to some farmers in Cornwall who had year round work and would have loved to hire locals, but the locals would not do it. At the same time, there was a major epidemic of unemployment and underemployment in our area, especially in young adults (20 to 30 or so). The majority of resentment seemed to be based on the erroneous idea that the employment problems were CAUSED by the immigrants, when in reality the Brits and the Eastern Europeans were not competing with each other for the same types of jobs. The Eastern Europeans were going in for dishwashing, room cleaning, farming, etc.and the Brits were going for nice, clean office jobs where they could put their shiny (and expensive) new degrees to good use. Unfortunately, there was a lot more of the first kind of work to go around than the second. They could have squeezed the immigrants out of the picture overnight by going for the difficult, low paid work, but what the heck. People are irrational. They didn't want to do those jobs, they just didn't want any foreigners doing them either.

 

[kai]

well the Cornish unemployed all have degrees and will only work in offices? i knew it was a different world down there.


Foreign fruit pickers are taking home as little as £45 a week at a company which provides some of Britain's largest supermarkets with thousands of tonnes of fruit, an investigation by The Independent has found.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...al-of-britains-fruitfarm-workers-1740207.html


Krystyna collapsed on to a freshly-cut furrow, rolled a cigarette and sighed. Lured to England with the promise of a nonexistent job and ripped off by a criminal gang, the young Pole had despaired of finding work until she got this job on a Norfolk farm.

Earning less than £20 a day and working illegally, she still considered herself lucky. That day, she was one of five illegal workers hacking away at pungent coriander, mint and fenugreek. On other days, there were many more.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-5622946-britains-illegal-farm-workers.do



Overworked, underpaid, and over here’ expresses concern that whilst overseas workers are toiling for long hours, often for very little pay, and housed in appalling conditions, in almost every case, the employers taking advantage of their vulnerability and poor command of English escape punishment. It calls on the UK government to help improve the conditions of migrant workers by signing the UN Convention on the Rights of Migrant Workers and their Families.

http://www.tuc.org.uk/international/tuc-6850-f0.cfm

A recent Guardian leader raised the issue of ‘unheard workers’ in the UK who are suffering under abhorrent conditions working for agencies in industries such as agriculture and food packing. The leader states that, in direct contrast to the issues of foreign sweatshops and labour standards in the garment industry, the issues in our own back yards, or indeed homes and offices, remain unnoticed and under-prioritised.

http://www.impacttlimited.com/2008/05/14/migrant-workers-in-the-uk…-silent-exploitation/


Jobless migrants living in shanty towns offered free flights home

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/feb/07/shanthy-town-migrants-free-flights




yep those Cornish youngsters must really envy those migrant workers, who wouldn't want to enter the murky world of the low paid migrant worker huh? and if you don't fancy spud picking there's always domestic work on offer.


Many migrant workers in UK are modern-day slaves, say investigators


http://womensgrid.freecharity.org.uk/?p=5775

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/aug/30/migrant-workers-modern-day-slavery


http://www.desiblitz.com/content/abuse-of-uk-domestic-migrant-workers