Master Path - Gary Olsen

[Vichar]

Do you have any interaction with Gary at the meetings.

Aside from shaking his hand during Darshan and saying hello, no. And that only happens rarely, because there are so many of us now. There's no telepathy going on; the thing that's speaking to me is already inside of me, and doesn't use words--it's like a direct understanding comes over me, and if I want I can then translate it into words but that's not the way it comes. It feels like images without pictures, if that makes sense.

Rising in consciousness is a fairly subtle thing. Its like the difference between being drunk and being sober, sort of. When you are drunk, you think you are thinking clearly but when you sober up you suddenly realize your judgment is impaired. When you are in a low state of consciousness, you think you're on top of things but when you rise up even a little bit, suddenly the things you felt were true seem ridiculous. For example, you might be arguing with someone, and after re-centering you suddenly realize that you're on the same side and being angry is not worth your attention.
Gary might say the same thing during seeker meetings again and again, but during chela meetings he covers specific topics. It doesn't escape me that Violet has quoted the master directly in this thread several times. Each time she misinterprets what is meant. I don't blame her; in her position I might well do the same. She has an agenda, so she can't "hear" what is being said.

It's like this: maybe I say to you, "you should be in the present". To you, that might just sound like some kind of New Age bs. Someone who is centering and tuning into my vibration realizes that I mean they should focus their attention on what is occurring right now, instead of say, when you've gotten into a car accident, dwelling on what it means to your insurance or the hassles involved with getting repairs or telling your spouse about the whole thing. Doing so evokes an emotional response; being here, right now, lets you focus on what's important and lets you take correct action (like making sure the other driver isn't hurt).

It's like that with Gary. If you are refined enough (and not folding your arms waiting for something to be proved to you), listening to Gary is an incredible experience. It's like questions are answered before you can even fully give words to the questions. When gary says "Questions are a form of death," you really must understand what he means by the term, "death". He means that spirit is the true reality and the mind is dead--it's not alive because it's not conscious. We are conscious, but when we think we are the mind we are asleep. We wouldn't have the same questions when we center ourselves and rise above the place in consciousness where those questions makes sense.

Example: you think the world is flat. You ask someone, "If I travel far enough, won't I fall off the edge? Where is the edge exactly?" Then you get in a space shuttle, look down at the Earth, and suddenly you realize how foolish you have been. That's why questions are a form of death--if you're asking them, you can bet you're in a low state of consciousness right now.

I can’t help but think that Gary is pulling your leg ….big time. I do believe that all sorts of contact between engaging individuals are possible, but that it requires active participation on both sides of the equation. As for the possibility of distance communication among more that two individuals at once, I don’t know. You would have to be a “god” ….or something, to do that? I certainly can’t see Gary as being one of those: an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient entity; or whether any being remotely like that even exists.


Your skepticism is very understandable. Yet, inside my consciousness, during what others would consider "dreams" I have met Gary and that entity inside carries the exact same vibration as the outer Gary. I can tell when someone in my dreams is just a projection of my own consciousness, and this is different. I've spoken to other chelas, close friends, and they all report the same thing happening. The things that are related to us are not things that we already knew. As a scientist, I realize what critics are going to say: we're responding to a form of hypnotic suggestion. My only response to that is to smile. I'm kind of a skeptical person myself. The first time it happened I was kind of shocked to be honest. Is Gary omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Gary is a human being. What people fail to realize is that every human being is god, with the only difference being whether they realize it or not. I don't believe Gary the man is omnipresent, but I have no problem believing that the inner master has full access to my consciousness 24/7. It's not well understood by someone that hasn't experienced it: the inner master, YOUR inner master, is inside of you right now.

Locating to a higher state: I have the impression that chelas “travel” there during gross contemplation? Or are you able to go there at any moment, within a matter of seconds, with practice over time as you become proficient with the techniques you have learned?

Like anything, it gets easier with practice. Hence spiritual exercises.

Are dream recall and navigating the inner realms similar in many ways?

Yes, In a way. Navigating the inner realms is treacherous. Think about trying to wake up during dreams to become lucid. If you're like me, it's not easy to do it every night. Some things are too interesting, too painful, etc. You can't always tell you are dreaming. Without a master, there is no guidance in there, and believe me there are plenty of scary things in the mental realms. This is one of the many reasons I feel a guru is necessary. I used to be fascinated with psychic endeavor and I... discovered some unpleasant things during my dream time. Since I've been on the path, those kind of nightmares disappeared entirely. It's like I can't even go digging in dark places anymore, because they have zero draw / pull for me now.

have you been a user of recreational drugs at some stage?

Not this lifetime, no. I am aware of the perception (from this thread) that an MP chela is someone who is desperate or elderly or an addictive personality. I'm afraid I'm very boring in that regard. I think I got a speeding ticket once. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I've never done drugs, I've never cheated on a test. I'm a successful professional (an engineer / scientist, if you can believe it) and not in any kind of financial trouble. I'm in a happy relationship, I make friends easily. A lot of other chelas are like me: good citizens, not in any kind of trouble, very likeable. Some stereotypes are just put out there to be hurtful, but have no validity.

I believe you can re-experience those states by the recall of those memories together with application of the faculties of your own mind, without the use of any drug.

Yes, I have verified for myself that this is true. I've spoken to some chelas who did use recreational drugs in the past, and they report that at the time they were doing them (years and years ago), they felt uplifted, but now drugs or alcohol seem to "bring them down" in awareness.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Thank you for the welcome. I hear what you are saying. Esoteric teachings sound like gobbley-gook. And yet, when I focus attention and relax the mind, things suddenly become apparent.

Regarding your statement about "as long as YOU are seeking, enlightenment is impossible." Well, I would interpret that this way: We relate to the mind, think we ARE the mind, but the mind cannot become self realized, because it is not the true self. Still the mind, and what remains is free of the mind's influence.

Yes Vichar, yes thats the gist, well said.

There is but one Mind, i.e. the Universal omniscient omnipresent One, and it is the error of disciples to seek within the mind through conceptual thinking to find that which they seek, whether it be God, Guru, Soul, enlightenment, Nirvana, etc.. Iow they are using the mind to find within the mind some conceptualization which is meant to represent the Real but in itself is not real except as a concept. However it they cease thinking, there is nothing but the REAL and the apparent separation between the un-enlightened aspirant's mind and the enlightened One Mind ceases to exist. The non-created One Mind is all there is, was, and ever will be.

Btw, only very few aspirants who reach this penultimate stage on the path ever go on to realize reintegration/enlightenment due to the terrible fear that arises in 'their' body, mind, soul of possible personal annihilation???

So far as it being esoteric teaching, yes but in fact the true teaching is that there is no true teaching since this teaching points out the error of the mind's conceptual dualism. But nevertheless this teaching uses conceptual dualism as an unavoidable expedient to convey the teaching that conceptual dualism is not the true teaching. If the aspirant understands what is being said here, they are no longer a novice.

 

[end_of_faith]

You assess the efficacy of the guru by observing the changes in your own consciousness. What is going on in your life? Are you the same person?

Big changes in consciousness. Wonderful happenings in my life. Definitely not the same person. The 'guru' is not outside of you.

But since you have placed your faith in the guru, then, there must be a means of gauging the efficacy of the guru, and it is not by observing the changes in YOUR consciousness. There are millions of people who would attest and attribute changes in consciousness to their belief and devotion to the one they call 'guru.' And yet, you could silently or verbally state with equal conviction that the one they call 'guru' is no guru. Which is a measure of gauging efficacy and you aren't forming that assessment based on their perceived changes in consciousness. You are evaluating the man claiming to be guru.

The chelas posting want to say it's all about the "inner guru." Okay. If that is true, then, why do you need an outer guru? Oh, the teachings....well, your master didn't write the teachings, he copied them. Copying or mimicking another teaching doesn't equal realization of the consciousness. That's the buzzkill and danger in your master's plagiarism. The subtle clarity of that illuminating realization is far from your internal grasp or realm of perception.

....they are qualitatively different than any other experiences I can remember in this lifetime, and there is nothing at all subtle about them.

really? in your very next post you exclaim how "subtle" it all is....

As a scientist ......

interesting credential....gives no more credibility to the efficacy of your guru than a famous actor gives to a science fiction writer who creates a religion on a bet.

Could I have achieved the same results with a different guru? Frankly, I don't know. I had no other guru to study with.

Could I have achieved the same results on my own? Again, who knows? All I know is that before the path, I wasn't getting anywhere in my inner journey.

Welcome to the discussion Vichar. Also an interesting moniker. Clear thinking, uh. Nice to see you happen upon the discussion so quickly after it was reopened and relocated.

Do you have any interaction with Gary at the meetings.

Aside from shaking his hand during Darshan and saying hello, no.

It is your belief that makes all things real. Especially true when you do not know the man behind the veil pretending to be who/what he is not. Gary is not a Saint or Guru. That is a realization. For most people, that realization comes without a lifetime of devotion. In that regard, the majority of people that you (and chelas) view as unenlightened & lost without a guru are more likely farther along than you. Radical thought for a chela of Gary's to consider, isn't it. You may choose to pay lip service to what has just been written in your monotone online mini-dissertations, but I know the mind of a chela. Remember, I was once you. Know your mind, and you know them all...right? Isn't that one of those common L&S quotes.

Rising in consciousness is a fairly subtle thing....

really? I thought there was nothing subtle about it.... according to you

Gary might say the same thing during seeker meetings again and again, but during chela meetings he covers specific topics. It doesn't escape me that Violet has quoted the master directly in this thread several times. Each time she misinterprets what is meant. I don't blame her; in her position I might well do the same. She has an agenda, so she can't "hear" what is being said.

And what is your agenda? To spread the good word of your guru? Perhaps it is you who "can't hear" what is being said. But that possibility is most likely out of your purview.

It's like that with Gary. If you are refined enough (and not folding your arms waiting for something to be proved to you), listening to Gary is an incredible experience.

:sleep:

Your skepticism is very understandable. Yet, inside my consciousness, during what others would consider "dreams" I have met Gary and that entity inside carries the exact same vibration as the outer Gary.

Without a master, there is no guidance in there, and believe me there are plenty of scary things in the mental realms. This is one of the many reasons I feel a guru is necessary.

Yes, fear and faith appear to fit hand in glove. There is nothing to fear inside. You're still relying on a belief in a man to guide you "in there". Test your perceived connection inside, and walk away from all that you believe is real in the outer teachings, including your guru...and then come back and talk to us. Challenge what you believe. Question the source of what you believe and call truth. You can't do it. Because if you do, it is no longer real and true. Once the inner door opens to the truth, the outer door closes to the false. Gary and his wife are not true or truthful.

Not this lifetime, no. I am aware of the perception (from this thread) that an MP chela is someone who is desperate or elderly or an addictive personality. I'm afraid I'm very boring in that regard. I think I got a speeding ticket once. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I've never done drugs, I've never cheated on a test. I'm a successful professional (an engineer / scientist, if you can believe it) and not in any kind of financial trouble. I'm in a happy relationship, I make friends easily. A lot of other chelas are like me: good citizens, not in any kind of trouble, very likeable. Some stereotypes are just put out there to be hurtful, but have no validity.

Sorry Vichar....your thinking is becoming very clear. Too clear. Too contrived. Beginning to remind me of your master asking DH to create fantasy characters with personalities of seekers asking questions in a meeting that never happened.

Yes Vichar, yes thats the gist, well said.

There is but one Mind, i.e. the Universal omniscient omnipresent One, and it is the error of disciples to seek within the mind through conceptual thinking to find that which they seek, whether it be God, Guru, Soul, enlightenment, Nirvana, etc.. Iow they are using the mind to find within the mind some conceptualization which is meant to represent the Real but in itself is not real except as a concept. However it they cease thinking, there is nothing but the REAL and the apparent separation between the un-enlightened aspirant's mind and the enlightened One Mind ceases to exist. The non-created One Mind is all there is, was, and ever will be.

Btw, only very few aspirants who reach this penultimate stage on the path ever go on to realize reintegration/enlightenment due to the terrible fear that arises in 'their' body, mind, soul of possible personal annihilation???

So far as it being esoteric teaching, yes but in fact the true teaching is that there is no true teaching since this teaching points out the error of the mind's conceptual dualism. But nevertheless this teaching uses conceptual dualism as an unavoidable expedient to convey the teaching that conceptual dualism is not the true teaching. If the aspirant understands what is being said here, they are no longer a novice.

Bravo.

 

[Vichar]

end_of_faith,

You say you used to be a chela once. I'm surprised that you cannot assess the tone of your own message. You are in full attack mode, and there is no love in your message at all. What happened to you? Why did you join the path in the first place, do you remember?

I am a stranger to you: you don't know who I am, we have never met. Yet immediately you assume everything I have said is false--you are basically calling me a liar. The thing is, your anger is not even well directed. If your purpose is to discredit the path, all you are doing is undermining your own purpose by coming across as prejudiced and bitter. You realize that, short of deleting my posts, there is no way to prevent a calm, reasonable individual from sensing the difference in tone?

Take for example my use of the word subtle. I said that one of my spiritual experiences during dream time was not subtle. Then I said rising in consciousness is quite subtle. They were two different events, and I made different statements about them. I said the experience wasn't subtle--because there was no way of mistaking it for what it was since it was so different from anything else I've ever experienced. I said rising in consciousness is subtle, mainly because it is not the mind that rises in consciousness--it is soul. It's not something you can just pick up and do. I'm being very obvious here, and there's nothing contrived about it. The thing is, you don't have to be on the path to believe a guru is necessary--just go over to the Hinduism forums and you can see most people there believe in the necessity of the guru as well.

Since you have left the path, how are you doing? Are you more at peace within yourself? Have you come to terms with your experience? If you could honestly look at yourself and consider it... why are you still so angry?

This thread is so one-sided, so full of hateful attacks, that I felt honest answers to legitimate questions should at least be attempted. All my posts up until this point have simply been to answer questions that I found throughout the thread. Regarding what I said about myself. Every word is true. But I suppose that doesn't matter to you. This is the internet, and you believe you can say whatever you like without any repercussions at all. People mistake freedom of speech with being free to spread lies.

My advice to you would be to take a step back and try to remember why you even come to these forums at all. I suppose you believe you are trying to keep others from "making a big mistake" and joining the path. But a seeker is either ready for the path or she isn't. It's not up to me, it's not up to you--it's only up to god. If you don't believe in the master, perhaps you still believe in karma? Suppose for a moment you are correct about Gary, that he is a fraud. Even if that is the case, do you suppose spreading lies about someone, anyone, is serving your own spiritual journey?

 

[end_of_faith]

end_of_faith,
.....I'm surprised that you cannot assess the tone of your own message. You are in full attack mode, and there is no love in your message at all. What happened to you? Why did you join the path in the first place, do you remember?

I'm very aware of the "tone" of my message. It is neither an attack nor is it anger. I remember well why I "joined" the path. What happened? I see and know the truth.

I am a stranger to you: you don't know who I am, we have never met. Yet immediately you assume everything I have said is false--you are basically calling me a liar. The thing is, your anger is not even well directed. If your purpose is to discredit the path, all you are doing is undermining your own purpose by coming across as prejudiced and bitter. You realize that, short of deleting my posts, there is no way to prevent a calm, reasonable individual from sensing the difference in tone?

As I am a stranger to you: you don't know who I am. Yet you immediately assume everything said on this forum is false--you are basically calling me, Violet, and others a liar. I didn't call you a liar. I said your master is false. And yes, he is a liar. Again, no anger....just direct reciprocation. I am not prejudiced and bitter. Though I do question your ability to assess the "tone" of the message. You undermine the ability of a calm, reasonable individual from perceiving the difference in tone. If you want to assess my "tone" as angry, so be it. I'm not offended by your emotional or mental response.

Take for example my use of the word subtle. I said that one of my spiritual experiences during dream time was not subtle. Then I said rising in consciousness is quite subtle. They were two different events, and I made different statements about them. I said the experience wasn't subtle--because there was no way of mistaking it for what it was since it was so different from anything else I've ever experienced. I said rising in consciousness is subtle, mainly because it is not the mind that rises in consciousness--it is soul. It's not something you can just pick up and do. I'm being very obvious here, and there's nothing contrived about it. The thing is, you don't have to be on the path to believe a guru is necessary--just go over to the Hinduism forums and you can see most people there believe in the necessity of the guru as well.

Dreams are a product of the mind. Dreams are shunned by the very tradition of Surat Shabd Yoga your "master" claims to teach. I find it interesting that the Western "gurus" pick and choose what they think serves the Western mind. And I'm saying rising in consciousness is something that a person can do...it requires desire and focus. As far as the Hinduism forums....well, most people in America believe in Jesus.

Since you have left the path, how are you doing? Are you more at peace within yourself? Have you come to terms with your experience? If you could honestly look at yourself and consider it... why are you still so angry?

I'm doing wonderful! Very peaceful and serene. I'm not angry. As far as my experience....well, here's just one experience that defines my departure from MP. One day as I stood in silence with eyes closed, deeply petitioning the guidance of the inner guru's help in reconciling the grave disparity between what I was witnessing in the outer versus the inner....yearning and pleading for a sign that I was on the right path inside in leaving the outer due to the lies, hypocrosy, forms of deception, control, manipulation, power trips, and personality games of the leaders...I opened my eyes to see the most magnificent sight. It was a sunny & warm day with not a cloud in the sky. And before me, the end of a rainbow completely filled my backyard streaming through a giant oak. It was amazingly beautiful and poignant moment. I rubbed my eyes in disbelief. The imagery and internal message has left an indelible mark in my consciousness. It has allowed me to not only look at myself honestly....it has given me the sight & fortitude to look at your guru honestly.

I would also add that I do not fear someone bashing the experience, or attempting to diminish or ridicule it. Nor do I harbor thoughts of people being "jealous." Everytime I hear the word "jealous"....i think of your guru. It was his catch-all for anyone questioning him or his wife. By the end of my time on MP, his response was so base and infantile that all I could hear was how little he could perceive.

This thread is so one-sided, so full of hateful attacks, that I felt honest answers to legitimate questions should at least be attempted. All my posts up until this point have simply been to answer questions that I found throughout the thread. Regarding what I said about myself. Every word is true. But I suppose that doesn't matter to you. This is the internet, and you believe you can say whatever you like without any repercussions at all. People mistake freedom of speech with being free to spread lies.

My advice to you would be to take a step back and try to remember why you even come to these forums at all. I suppose you believe you are trying to keep others from "making a big mistake" and joining the path. But a seeker is either ready for the path or she isn't. It's not up to me, it's not up to you--it's only up to god. If you don't believe in the master, perhaps you still believe in karma? Suppose for a moment you are correct about Gary, that he is a fraud. Even if that is the case, do you suppose spreading lies about someone, anyone, is serving your own spiritual journey?

I think it is wonderful that you feel moved to offer honest answers to legitimate questions in a forum that you define as "so full of hateful attacks."

You are assuming a lot about me in your statement....and yet, you do not know me. I am not spreading lies. Nothing I have written is based on a lie.

I have no motive in "trying to keep others from making a big mistake and joining the path." But I will state that Truth is Free, and anyone charging money is not a guru. I don't care how the rationale is spun.

Again, I am not spreading lies. If you are referring to my statement about your master asking DH to create personalities of seekers asking questions....that is not a lie. That is the truth, and by the way, I am the only one who spoke up and said: this is not true. That moment has not only served my spiritual journey, it served many...some are now in charge of editing what you read as your "master's writings."

And yes, I find it just a bit coincidental that you are a scientist. I wonder if you have taken a step back, and realize that your tone is more visible than you see or hear?

have a splendid weekend....I know I am...

 

[end_of_faith]

As far as calling your master a false guru and a liar....here's a fair question.

What do you call it when your "master" makes a phone call to a chela out of the blue, and spews all sorts of untrue & maligning stories about another chela who has left his path.

And when the chela who has left the path is told these negative aspersions put forth by the one he/she once called "guru," and directly calls the "master" on it.... and the master then proceeds to deny it by calling the chela a liar unto whom he initially spewed all this negativity.

Well, you can call the "master" a delusional psycho or a liar. But we can't call him a guru. Unless, of course, the standard is so low that expectations are easily met, and all gross & subtle disparities are rationalized as beyond the understanding of our mental capacity. Ya know, it's a "soul thing."

So, you see Vichar, I have seen and heard the "tone of your master's message".... it is convoluted, self-serving, and untruthful. He will call one of "his own chelas" a liar for telling the truth, and praise his humility while speaking a lie.

Is he true or false? He doesn't even understand why the chela left the path after his crazy-talking phone call. He lost a very sincere chela through his own doing. Yet, he fails to see the truth of what actually transpired. And he will continue to vehemently deny any accountability for his own words or actions.

So, no, I no longer respect or view your master as anything more than he is: a mortal man with a huge ego caught in the most subtle trap of all: the Messianic Complex.

And this is but one example. I could offer many more, but I still have a shred of compassion for the plight of your master and his wife. Yes, I believe in karma. And they are both accruing it.

But you might want to enlighten him, his wife, and his secretary that in the future when he calls a chela to have one of his "private, one-on-one sacred satsangs": the clicking of lighters in the background is easily distinguishable over the phone line.

:yes:

 

[Vichar]

Actually, I never called you or Violet a liar. I didn't mention you at all until now. I simply said Violet misinterpreted the master's works. How did Violet obtain those tapes, anyway? I recognize their content and they were part of mailings to chelas. And if Violet is so objective and calm, why is she banned from this forum? I suspect eventually a moderator was tired of her lack of self-control, either in this thread or another.

So I said this in an answer to a question asked by someone else (Zeeker):

Not this lifetime, no. I am aware of the perception (from this thread) that an MP chela is someone who is desperate or elderly or an addictive personality. I'm afraid I'm very boring in that regard. I think I got a speeding ticket once. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I've never done drugs, I've never cheated on a test. I'm a successful professional (an engineer / scientist, if you can believe it) and not in any kind of financial trouble. I'm in a happy relationship, I make friends easily. A lot of other chelas are like me: good citizens, not in any kind of trouble, very likeable. Some stereotypes are just put out there to be hurtful, but have no validity.

To which you say:

Sorry Vichar....your thinking is becoming very clear. Too clear. Too contrived. Beginning to remind me of your master asking DH to create fantasy characters with personalities of seekers asking questions in a meeting that never happened.

You're saying that I've made up a story about myself--calling me a liar. You don't even seem aware of your own attitudes anymore... it's like objectivity is gone about this subject, and anyone that actually has good things to say about the path is automatically deluded in your eyes.

Do you even keep in touch with active chelas? Year after year, I see the same people who have been on the path for years. Rarely does anyone leave the path. They all seem happy, in love with the path and the master, and are doing well. If there is one thing I have learned about human nature, it's that it's very, very hard for people to change their behavior, especially if they are as compulsive as you say. If the master used to call up chelas and yell at them, why is he not doing that anymore? I suspect what happened was the master called someone out for negative behavior (the very messianic complex you accuse him of, or trashtalking the path perhaps), and this chela flipped out about it.

While we are on the subject, I might as well talk about the path's finances, since people in this thread have gone on at length about how this is some kind of money pyramid. The path is a non-profit organization. The masterpath is not allowed to take profit or distribute dividends--funds like donations must go toward furthering the path's cause, which can include investments. Anyone can go online and pull down the numbers. When I was investigating the path, I did this. The master makes about $70,000 USD a year. Among the rest of the staff, the highest salary seems to be about in the $50,000 range. I think this was in 2006, so the numbers have probably gone up since then. So you see, I can make clear, easily verifiable statements about the path, as opposed to unsupported, emotional remarks. For a third party reading this thread, I encourage you to go pull up the numbers for yourself to verify that the masterpath is indeed non-profit and what the office members are making. If facts like this don't debunk the crazy money pyramid talk, then I can only conclude you are unable to carry about unbiased research.

But that's not really the point is it? I know you don't care about the truth where it relates to the path end_of_faith, which is probably why you disdain my forum nickname of clear thinking. I can tell that this is a painful topic for you, so I'll stop talking about it. If you ask a real question I might answer it, but further exchange is pointless, especially if you are going to backtrack.

I'm glad you are doing well--each of us has to pursue what feels right and moves our spiritual journey forward. You might consider granting others that same courtesy.

 

[end_of_faith]

You're saying that I've made up a story about myself--calling me a liar.

No, I didn't call you a liar. I said your thinking is becoming clear. "Too contrived" as in it strikes a chord in me that responds to it as "not arising naturally or spontaneously; or, as in: giving the "sense" of artificiality." Meaning I'm not buying what you or MP is selling. Meaning I am highly skeptical of your agenda and you. That is not calling you a liar. And if that makes me "without objectivity" according to you, so be it.

Rarely does anyone leave the path..... If the master used to call up chelas and yell at them, why is he not doing that anymore? I suspect what happened was the master called someone out for negative behavior (the very messianic complex you accuse him of, or trashtalking the path perhaps), and this chela flipped out about it.

If you say so.

Since you have never spent any physical time with the "master" what qualifies you to speak about that which you know nothing? How do you know anything about what the "master" does...now or in the past?

You suspect wrong.

While we are on the subject, I might as well talk about the path's finances, since people in this thread have gone on at length about how this is some kind of money pyramid. The path is a non-profit organization. The masterpath is not allowed to take profit or distribute dividends--funds like donations must go toward furthering the path's cause, which can include investments. Anyone can go online and pull down the numbers. When I was investigating the path, I did this. The master makes about $70,000 USD a year. Among the rest of the staff, the highest salary seems to be about in the $50,000 range. I think this was in 2006, so the numbers have probably gone up since then. So you see, I can make clear, easily verifiable statements about the path, as opposed to unsupported, emotional remarks. For a third party reading this thread, I encourage you to go pull up the numbers for yourself to verify that the masterpath is indeed non-profit and what the office members are making. If facts like this don't debunk the crazy money pyramid talk, then I can only conclude you are unable to carry about unbiased research.

Really....It is 2011, and the most recent numbers you quote are 2006. And no, your "clear, easily verifiable statements" about the path are based on information that is about as clear as mud. Surely you don't presume that the information provided is the whole truth of the matter. Oh, excuse me, that is a rhetorical question to someone who can only form conclusions based on bias toward his master.

But that's not really the point is it? I know you don't care about the truth where it relates to the path end_of_faith, which is probably why you disdain my forum nickname of clear thinking. I can tell that this is a painful topic for you, so I'll stop talking about it. If you ask a real question I might answer it, but further exchange is pointless, especially if you are going to backtrack.

I'm glad you are doing well--each of us has to pursue what feels right and moves our spiritual journey forward. You might consider granting others that same courtesy.

You know nothing about me, so how could know what I care about? Isn't that a bit presumptuous for someone thinking so clearly and lovingly? I don't disdain your forum nickname. I think it's interesting. You can interpret or misinterpret that according to your sensitivities.

Again, you don't know what is painful for me. Please do not assume too much.

For you to suggest that I am preventing others the courtesy of following what feel rights or moves their spiritual journey forward is ludicrous. As you said earlier...what people do or don't do has nothing to do either of us.


wishing you well.

 

[zizzer]

.

Also: my heart really goes out to zizzer. She seems very distraught by her experiences with masterpath. I'm so glad that you got off masterpath if it was hurting you. I hope that you learn to trust again so that when you find something real and true to you, you will embrace it and be whole.

Dear Mister "Clear Thinking" (Vichar)
Please mind your own business. I do not trust anyone on this path or perhaps any other "path" with fradulent gurus and dumfounded followers. I have found something real and true and it is me. Masterpath never recognizes anyone has attained "Self-Awareness" and as long as you are on this path neither will you. Gary has stated "He is the master and the master is him. After thorough study, I do not agree. It IS a cult of personality. My blackened little heart really goes out to YOU in hopes that you will see the "light". This is my experience and for me it is "real and true". I have moved on. I am busy with other things.:beach:

 

[zizzer]

That is an amazing experience. It is very much like the exact thing that happened to me, but you put it so eloquently I had to repeat the quote. Thank you for sharing this because it has reminded me of something I want to recall for the rest of my days.

 

[Zeeker]

Thank you for your reply Vichar.

Your skepticism is very understandable. Yet, inside my consciousness, during what others would consider "dreams" I have met Gary and that entity inside carries the exact same vibration as the outer Gary. I can tell when someone in my dreams is just a projection of my own consciousness, and this is different. I've spoken to other chelas, close friends, and they all report the same thing happening. The things that are related to us are not things that we already knew. As a scientist, I realize what critics are going to say: we're responding to a form of hypnotic suggestion. My only response to that is to smile. I'm kind of a skeptical person myself. The first time it happened I was kind of shocked to be honest. Is Gary omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Gary is a human being. What people fail to realize is that every human being is god, with the only difference being whether they realize it or not. I don't believe Gary the man is omnipresent, but I have no problem believing that the inner master has full access to my consciousness 24/7. It's not well understood by someone that hasn't experienced it: the inner master, YOUR inner master, is inside of you right now.

:help: Would the real Inner Master please stand up and identify him-/her-self! Ambivalent? No; your explanation is quite “occluded” for me. Yes, MY inner master is inside of me right now, I’ll agree with that. But YOUR inner master, Vichar’s inner master, is garji is it not?

Any seeker, outsider like myself, who hears Gary utter “The Inner Master” believes he is referring to THEIR inner master, their Higher Self or conscience if you will. Not anything foreign or from outside of themselves that has been “invited” in. However, any chela, chela who has reached the 2nd initiation at least, knows that the inner master Gary refers to is: garji, Gary’s double, Gary’s “etheric” entity who they experience and have permitted to station itself on the inner at their 3rd eye?

Why is it so difficult to say, to admit, that garji is your inner master? Because that is part and parcel of the higher knowledge that only the initiated are privileged to know? Yes, we seekers, outsiders, always misinterpret, misunderstand what Gary says, what is being quoted. Why! Because it has a different meaning depending on how involved, how “evolved,” into the MasterPath “doctrine” you have become? Meanings change as you progress from a seeker to an accomplished chela, from chela to vahanna (higher initiate), as you “evolve” towards the higher states of being …according to MasterPath? Esoteric knowledge must remain beyond the understanding to those who have not passed and conceded their stages of learning, and progressed to the appropriate levels. Members “cannot remember” their experiences! Rather, they are not permitted to, instructed not to, divulge the inner teachings or their experiences to outsiders, or even another devotee who is not “ready” and below their level?

When gary says "Questions are a form of death," you really must understand what he means by the term, "death". He means that spirit is the true reality and the mind is dead--it's not alive because it's not conscious. We are conscious, but when we think we are the mind we are asleep. We wouldn't have the same questions when we center ourselves and rise above the place in consciousness where those questions makes sense.

Questions are a form of death all right. A death of Gary’s jurisdiction over you, if you dare to make your own decisions and then acknowledge them. Decisions of your own choice, to think for yourself and evaluate what you are being told and asked to believe unconditionally by Gary. Why? Because questions lead to answers which invariable lead to more questions and more answers, to eventually expose the Truth? Once you have regained your autonomy and are able to start unraveling a ruse that has been continually presented before you, you can begin to start seeing it for what it is. :yes:

Have you ever given a presentation and at the end invited your audience to ask their questions? Have you ever then had no one in the audience ask you a question? When there are questions there is a further exchange of information and a greater understanding of the material to not only the questioner but to anyone else in the audience who may have thought of the same or a similar question. Also, the presenter can follow the drift of the questioner in the audience and realize how well he/she has been understood by the questioner. By the same token, a knowledgeable questioner can also gauge how familiar the presenter is with the material bieng presented, and how well they know what they are talking about. When no questions are forthcoming, it means one of two things: Everyone in the audience is already familiar with the presented material and understood it well enough not to seek further clarification or information. Or, most of the audience has not understood the material and are either too embraced or too disinterested to learn what it was actually all about. Invariably it will be the latter. When a presenter tells the audience not to bother him/her with their questions, what does that then imply? To blindly accept what they say as gospel without questioning it for themselves?

When I was inside Scientology I was also told to put my questions aside. That I was not ready yet. That I would misunderstand, misinterpret. That the answers would “damage my mind.” After I had left and did find out, they sure would have damaged my mind all right! If I would have been told all this prospective information in advance, that I would be expected to believe much later, I would have run for the door and never have looked back!

Stop listening to someone else. Even if they claim to be, you have become convinced they are, so much more “evolved” than you (a “god” per se), and listen to Yourself: YOUR OWN INNER MASTER. The Truth will set you Free ….but you must consciously make every effort to look for it, and then be able to See it!

 

[Vichar]

It's weird how people are trying so hard in this thread to convince me that Gary's is a fraud. What's the point? I hardly care what Gary is spending my money on (it's less money than my cell phone bill). I care about results, and the results are quite, quite profound. I've stated several times it's not really about Gary, the man, but you keep conveniently ignoring that. Just like end of faith ignores statements of facts that masterpath is non-profit, and all the financial data of masterpath is exposed for anyone who cares to look it up. When end of faith says there's more to the story, well what is it? But he doesn't say. I have yet to come across any shady financial data related to the master. I haven't seen a receipt for olive trees, and even if I did, so what? Masterpath is allowed to make investments--I can't see what's wrong with that. What they can't do is take personal profits, and they don't. Their salaries are exposed as public domain knowledge. Just look it up and stop making up stuff online, please.

I've asked questions of a number of higher initiates, and I've asked Gary questions via letter which he answered very politely (far more politely than the people in this forum). He told me to follow the sound and that the inner master is the true master, and not him, the outer man! Um, of course I'm my own inner master, and Gary has said this maybe 1000 times to me. So what's with this tirade about not asking questions, Zeeker? Yes, the master has said that questions are a form of death, and once again you willfully ignore the true meaning of that, which I took care to explain already. You can take any quote from anyone out of context, and twist it for your own ends. People in this thread have spent many pages doing this, and I hope you're getting real entertainment value out of it because I can't figure out why else anyone would bother.

Hard for me to admit Garji is my inner master? How do you say this stuff with a straight face? Where are you even getting that from? I can't tell if you're just making that up or just willfully misunderstanding. Since this is an important point, I'll address it. There is only one eternal master. He's a part of every one of us. Because we are trapped in the delusion of the mind, and when in lower states there's no way to really recognize ourselves, we need a helping hand. Garji is merely a way for someone that is in contact with the eternal master to help you point your attention in the right direction. Of course Garji is the inner master... just like you, Zeeker, are the inner master in your realized state. You're somehow trying to say that your inner master is different from my inner master, which doesn't make any sense to me because there's only one eternal master. Any other viewpoint is embracing duality and separation. Seriously, your ego is getting so in your way so much that you can't possibly accept that anyone might be more aware than you are. If this thread has shown me anything, it's that I'm astounded how confused people are about the need for an outer guru. People will go to a professor to get a piece of paper that says they are smart, people will apprentice to a CEO and essentially sign up for indentured servitude to a corporation just for the possibility they might become rich, but they can't admit they don't know the first thing about themselves. Please, do NOT seek out an outer guru--he is of no use to you if you are that confused about what the inner master is! Go live your life to the fullest, and do not seek the guru.

Even more curious is that you're essentially saying 1500 people, many of whom I know and trust personally, are suffering from mass delusion. End of faith seems to be questioning that the chelas I know, and have known for years, are all very happy and doing fantastic on the path. Once again, I experience this first hand--I talk to these people often and recently I might add. Are you really spending effort to convince me otherwise? I can only conclude that end of faith is really just trying to convince himself, which I can understand.

Finally, what's this nonsense you're making up about chelas not remembering their experiences? My girlfriend is a chela and we sometimes talk about her inner experiences. She remembers them very clearly, and so do I remember my inner experiences. Seriously, do you think making stuff up is somehow a good rhetorical device? You realize it's like I just saw a book drop off a shelf and fall onto the floor, and you're trying to convince me it's still on the shelf? I realize the internet is the place to make unsubstantiated claims, but what is even the point of trying to convince me of things that are so obviously false?

I can only assume it was a mistake to come here and feed the internet trolls. Look, I'm sorry if the path didn't work out for some of you, but you really need to calm down and ask yourself if bashing another path is what you really want to spend your energy on. Have you gone so far off the deep end that you can't recognize when you're continuing to exhibit negative behavior? If you've come to a place of inner peace, how can you not see that your own posts reflect bitterness and misdirected anger? You're attacking me, and I don't want anyone's money, and I've not attempted to ask anyone to follow anything other than their own spiritual heart.

 

[no-body]

Some people want to be huckstered, they need to get their monies worth and be scammed to really enjoy the experience (the idea is attributed to Heinlein I think)

The info that it is a scam should be out there though so others know and the weak don't step into brainwashing.

 

[end_of_faith]

It's weird how people are trying so hard in this thread to convince me that Gary's is a fraud.

No one is "trying to convince you" that Gary is a fraud.

What's the point? I hardly care what Gary is spending my money on (it's less money than my cell phone bill). I care about results, and the results are quite, quite profound. I've stated several times it's not really about Gary, the man, but you keep conveniently ignoring that.

Multiply your cell phone bill by 1500 per month x 12 months = substantial profit.

I'm also quite sure that people conveniently ignore the "quite, quite profound" results expounded by adherents of Scientology, Eckankar, MSIA, Christianity, JW, and Jerry Falwell.

No one is ignoring that it is not about "Gary the man." but you seem to conveniently ignore the fact that the centerpiece of the MP teachings is that you must go through the outer to meet the inner. If the outer is false, how can the inner be true? If it doesn't matter that the outer is a fake, then, it stands to reason that the teaching is not only unnecessary, but it doesn't bear fruit.

Just like end of faith ignores statements of facts that masterpath is non-profit, and all the financial data of masterpath is exposed for anyone who cares to look it up. When end of faith says there's more to the story, well what is it? But he doesn't say. I have yet to come across any shady financial data related to the master. I haven't seen a receipt for olive trees, and even if I did, so what? Masterpath is allowed to make investments--I can't see what's wrong with that. What they can't do is take personal profits, and they don't. Their salaries are exposed as public domain knowledge. Just look it up and stop making up stuff online, please.

I'm not ignoring statements of facts that MasterPath reaps the tax-free benefits of a non-profit religious organization.

How would you be in a position of "seeing" a receipt for olive trees? The inequitable inuring of principals is a violation of a 501(c)3. And if MP is "clean" of all legal trappings, then, what of the ethical issue? But I reckon you "can't see" any potential ethical issue with your "guru."

I've asked questions of a number of higher initiates, and I've asked Gary questions via letter which he answered very politely (far more politely than the people in this forum). He told me to follow the sound and that the inner master is the true master, and not him, the outer man!

ah yes.... the sound.... I truly wish for you that one day you hear the inaudible inner sound that lays waste to the bravado of your "master's voice."

Um, of course I'm my own inner master, and Gary has said this maybe 1000 times to me. So what's with this tirade about not asking questions, Zeeker? Yes, the master has said that questions are a form of death, and once again you willfully ignore the true meaning of that, which I took care to explain already. You can take any quote from anyone out of context, and twist it for your own ends. People in this thread have spent many pages doing this, and I hope you're getting real entertainment value out of it because I can't figure out why else anyone would bother.

yes, anyone can take a quote out of context and twist it to their own ends, including your master.

Hard for me to admit Garji is my inner master? How do you say this stuff with a straight face? Where are you even getting that from? I can't tell if you're just making that up or just willfully misunderstanding. Since this is an important point, I'll address it. There is only one eternal master. He's a part of every one of us. Because we are trapped in the delusion of the mind, and when in lower states there's no way to really recognize ourselves, we need a helping hand. Garji is merely a way for someone that is in contact with the eternal master to help you point your attention in the right direction. Of course Garji is the inner master... just like you, Zeeker, are the inner master in your realized state. You're somehow trying to say that your inner master is different from my inner master, which doesn't make any sense to me because there's only one eternal master. Any other viewpoint is embracing duality and separation. Seriously, your ego is getting so in your way so much that you can't possibly accept that anyone might be more aware than you are.

So, to recap: "Garji is merely a way for someone that is in contact with the eternal master to help you point your attention in the right direction." Brilliant.

If someone "is in contact with the eternal master" why do they need "garji" to point their attention in the right direction? Isn't the "eternal master" the right direction according to the tenets of the teachings?

If this thread has shown me anything, it's that I'm astounded how confused people are about the need for an outer guru. People will go to a professor to get a piece of paper that says they are smart, people will apprentice to a CEO and essentially sign up for indentured servitude to a corporation just for the possibility they might become rich, but they can't admit they don't know the first thing about themselves. Please, do NOT seek out an outer guru--he is of no use to you if you are that confused about what the inner master is! Go live your life to the fullest, and do not seek the guru.

And for some, it is astounding how confused people are about the need for an outer guru. Same words, entirely different realization. A degree is not proof of intelligence. There are plenty of sincere folks that have signed up for "indentured servitude" to your "guru." Please, do not seek the inner guru if you are that confused about what an outer master should be! Go live your illusion to the fullest, and do not preach guru!

Even more curious is that you're essentially saying 1500 people, many of whom I know and trust personally, are suffering from mass delusion. End of faith seems to be questioning that the chelas I know, and have known for years, are all very happy and doing fantastic on the path. Once again, I experience this first hand--I talk to these people often and recently I might add. Are you really spending effort to convince me otherwise? I can only conclude that end of faith is really just trying to convince himself, which I can understand.

Well, this is a very interesting point of view. First, you know that many people after only 8 years. I guess miracles do abound on MP. I have no doubt that chelas who believe Gary is a guru are happy. Just as I have no doubt that 10's of 1000's of people think Scientology is the greatest. Or, that Eckankar represents God's Word. As far as mass delusion goes....well, it's fair to say that chelas easily arrive at a privately sanctimonious attitude that the entire world is in a state of mass delusion...except, of course, for them....because.... oh, I remember.... they know the "guru."

No one is spending effort to convince you of anything. It's a debate. Nor am I trying to convince myself of anything. I am irrevocably convinced that your guru is false. It's really quite simple.

I can only assume it was a mistake to come here and feed the internet trolls. Look, I'm sorry if the path didn't work out for some of you, but you really need to calm down and ask yourself if bashing another path is what you really want to spend your energy on. Have you gone so far off the deep end that you can't recognize when you're continuing to exhibit negative behavior? If you've come to a place of inner peace, how can you not see that your own posts reflect bitterness and misdirected anger? You're attacking me, and I don't want anyone's money, and I've not attempted to ask anyone to follow anything other than their own spiritual heart.

There is no mistake in why you have come here. Even trolls need to eat. But in all seriousness, it's a bit juvenile to generalize and marginalize the participation on this thread as "trolls." That statement carries more reaction than perception of the participants in discussion. But if bashing the sincerity of others under the auspice of pseudo spiritual high ground is what you really want to spend your energy on, then, so be it.

Speaking the truth of one's experience is not exhibiting negative behavior, reflecting bitterness, or misdirected anger. No one is attacking you. No one said anything about you wanting their money. Odd statement by you. Please know that is not a personal attack, just a curious observation.

Happy trails in following your spiritual heart. :rainbow1:

 

[end_of_faith]

...When end of faith says there's more to the story, well what is it? But he doesn't say.....

...I realize the internet is the place to make unsubstantiated claims, but what is even the point of trying to convince me of things that are so obviously false?

I am not a 'he'....

I relate your question as rhetorical since, again, no one is "trying to convince you of things that are so obviously false."

But I'm guessing that the odds do not favor a dauntless internalized perception & challenging of your own projection of a belief system based on unsubstantiated grandiose spiritual claims by your "guru".

It's interesting to *see* and *hear* the defense of someone who believes they've found the truth of all truths. When you leave a system of belief, then, you see the entrapment of the belief. You see the emotional & spiritual rationale used to sustain the belief. You also see the unconscious mental justification underpinning the labyrinth of contradiction and absurdities in the belief.

But hey, shattering the illusion of all that you believe is real and true is the name of the game in guru-land.....so, I'd say we're on the right inner path....

 

[earlwooters]

Just another money pit. Stay away from it.

 

[Vichar]

Sorry I got your gender incorrect End of Faith. In writing class they taught us to use "he" when the gender of the individual is not known.

Regarding finances: we're going round and round here. The path is non-profit. Fact. The masterpath doesn't pay taxes, but gary has to pay taxes on his salary, just like the rest of us. That's also fact. You can look up his salary, and see he's not raking it in. That's also fact. For someone coming into the thread, and seeing the financial accusations, just take the time to request the publicly available data on the masterpath finances. Do some math, and you will realize that masterpath is very tightly run as an organization, with very little waste. I'm a government contractor, and I really wish the US government were run so efficiently.

As for gary getting a salary, I'm pretty glad he is. He has a lot of initiate reports to read, and I know he reads them because he's directly addressed the contents of some of my reports in seminars. I don't want gary out there in the desert painting houses like he used to do--he has more important duties now, in my opinion.

ah yes.... the sound.... I truly wish for you that one day you hear the inaudible inner sound that lays waste to the bravado of your "master's voice."

It's strange that you would write this. I do hear the sound. I won't pm someone without their permission, but if you wish, I will write you regarding my experiences in hearing the sound. It's quite real, and quite loud at times during contemplation. I had originally described my experiences out in this post, but I decided to erase it because of what my master said regarding describing inner experiences. If a seeker were to come here and read it, I wouldn't want them to think I was "preaching guru" as you put it. More to the point, there are clearly chelas and seekers who have not yet heard the sound, and I don't want them to think that their experience has to be exactly like mine, or get discouraged. If you give me permission, eof, I will pm you and describe my inner experience of hearing the sound.

No one is ignoring that it is not about "Gary the man." but you seem to conveniently ignore the fact that the centerpiece of the MP teachings is that you must go through the outer to meet the inner.

I don't know where you are getting this. Clearly, I believe one needs the outer guru to contact the inner master. I've never claimed otherwise. Can it be done without a guru? I honestly don't know. I can't prove the negative case, because I have yet to meet someone who demonstrated that level of vibration and purity without having an outer guru. As a scientist, I have to volunteer that this doesn't prove it's not possible. For those who believe differently than I do, I encourage them to keep trying.

Go live your illusion to the fullest, and do not preach guru!

It's strange that you think I'm preaching guru, since you just quoted me saying that a person shouldn't go seeking the guru. A guru is only for someone who can put their ego aside and admit that maybe another human being might be able to teach them something about spirituality.

There is no mistake in why you have come here. Even trolls need to eat. But in all seriousness, it's a bit juvenile to generalize and marginalize the participation on this thread as "trolls." That statement carries more reaction than perception of the participants in discussion. But if bashing the sincerity of others under the auspice of pseudo spiritual high ground is what you really want to spend your energy on, then, so be it.

I'm going to go out on a limb and believe that you're being sincere when you write this. If that's truly the case, then I sincerely apologize for making you feel like I'm bashing you. Certainly it's not my intent to make anyone feel badly. Put yourself in my shoes for a moment, if you will. From my point of view, people in this thread have spent 39 pages saying:

- Masterpath is a money making scheme (not true from my pov, for reasons I stated above)
- I'm not having inner experiences or I am somehow deluded (look at Zeeker's last post, and read the intent when you write:
ah yes.... the sound.... I truly wish for you that one day you hear the inaudible inner sound that lays waste to the bravado of your "master's voice.". I hope you can see the tone of that is condescending, and a little confusing since, well, I do hear the sound. It's not really a topic for debate for me.

I take issue with the proliferation of false statements. I don't feel that calling you out for it is a form of bashing.

As for the trolling comment:

Just another money pit. Stay away from it.

Come on now, even you have to admit someone just randomly coming and making an unsubstantiated attack like that is trolling. He gives no reasons, offers no justifications. How else am I supposed to interpret that?

 

[Vichar]

Well, this is a very interesting point of view. First, you know that many people after only 8 years. I guess miracles do abound on MP. I have no doubt that chelas who believe Gary is a guru are happy. Just as I have no doubt that 10's of 1000's of people think Scientology is the greatest. Or, that Eckankar represents God's Word. As far as mass delusion goes....well, it's fair to say that chelas easily arrive at a privately sanctimonious attitude that the entire world is in a state of mass delusion...except, of course, for them....because.... oh, I remember.... they know the "guru."

I'm not going to claim responsibility for the actions of other chelas. The ones I know would never talk down to someone just because they believe differently. They would, however, as I have done, contradict someone who said something false about the path.

It's strange that you think I can't meet other people in eight years. I believe we live multiple lifetimes, so from that perspective I agree eight years is a drop in the bucket. Eight years, however, is enough time to have quite a few satsangs with multiple people. And no, I don't know all 1500 personally. I have interacted with maybe 20-30 people on a personal basis, so clearly it's just a sampling. I don't know why you would interpret my statement to be that I knew all 1500 personally... But that's not the point. The point is, these chelas are like me. We wouldn't continue on the path if we didn't experience profound, inner changes, and have the ability to vibe out other people and judge for ourselves.

I just don't get it--how can you, with a calm state of mind, accuse us of a sanctimonious attitude and then in the same breath, say we believe the world is suffering from a mass delusion? You realize you just characterized an entire group of about 1500+ people, right? Nobody I know on the path believes that. We believe everyone is getting exactly the experiences they need, and if someone is interested in masterpath, we share our experiences with it. How is that accusing the world of suffering from a mass delusion? I'm a chela, what have I said to make you believe I think others are delusional? Of course we have expressed differences in belief--and I obviously don't agree with the unsubstantiated claims. But I never accused anyone of being "delusional".

Some people want to be huckstered, they need to get their monies worth and be scammed to really enjoy the experience (the idea is attributed to Heinlein I think)

The info that it is a scam should be out there though so others know and the weak don't step into brainwashing.

This person, on the other hand, is basically saying that chelas don't have the personal discernment to know what's good for them, or make their own decisions.

I only ask that people in this thread try to vibe out what they are writing, and ask themselves if it is loving or not.

 

[no-body]

This person, on the other hand, is basically saying that chelas don't have the personal discernment to know what's good for them, or make their own decisions.

I only ask that people in this thread try to vibe out what they are writing, and ask themselves if it is loving or not.

The world isn't all rainbows and sunshine, if your truth is really "THE TRUTH" then it should be able to stand up to any criticism.

I am very skeptical of anyone plagiarizing very well known teachings then passing them off for money and starting a "group" around those teachings, especially if the leader implies they have some special knowledge. I say this as someone who listens to people like Eckhart Tolle, Neal Donald Walsh, Krishnamurti, etc who repackage very well known eastern philosophies to the layman. But at least they don't claim to be anyone special nor do they claim you need to buy or even listen to anything of theirs to get enlightenment. You can do it all yourself for free.

 

[Vichar]

I guess there's no point in saying the same things again. Please, by all means, believe what you want.

$30 * 1500 people * 12 months = $540,000 / year. MasterPath has to pay for other salaries (5 office staff making 50,000 each = 250,000. Plus salaries for the treasurer and other officers, etc.) printing materials, pay for mailing, pay for other expenses, keep the lights on at the office, pay rent at the office, all the other things a small business would have as expenses. It's all quite out in the open. Gary was making around $82,000 in 2006 (I checked the filing again). I don't know what he's making now in 2010 because the filings at the source I used didn't go farther. You can go look up the figure yourself, however. I just don't get it. If I were going to go swindle people (basically commit the largest spiritual crime imaginable), wouldn't I want to do it for more money? I make nearly twice as much as Gary as a software engineer. Look people, if you are going to accuse an honest man of being a cheat, at least take the time to go do some honest investigation. Don't just say the first thing that comes into your head. I realize that's standard practice on the internet, but there are repercussions for spreading falsehoods. Do yourself a favor and go arm yourselves with the facts.