Master Path - Gary Olsen

[Nakosis]

Hi Nakosis. This is a great question. All of creation springs forth from the nameless creator as a stream of spirit. It's not a stream of physical water like a river is a stream; I imagine it as a wave moving outwards in all directions, although that is not quite accurate either.

Creation is divided into planes. As human beings, we are most familiar with the physical plane. Above that plane there is an astral (emotional) plane, a mental plane, and a causal plane. These comprise the lower division, or the world of energy, matter, space, and time. There are other planes, and once again I'm at a loss to explain what a plane actually is. My best attempt is an analogy with matter, which has phases like solid, liquid, gas. The phases of matter are distinguished by rapidity of vibration, or the frequency of vibration. Something melts because of increased thermodynamic energy makes the molecules vibrate faster (more frequently). Planes are a little like that, in that they are superimposed on each other but composed of finer degrees of vibration as you go "up" in frequency. Keep in mind that I'm just a student, so my explanations must necessarily come from my limited understanding. Please be patient with me while I try to put this in words. As a human being we're composed of parts. We have a body (physical), emotions (astral), thoughts (mental), and spirit (spiritual). The goal of spirituality is to (re-)discover the spiritual self and reunite it with the overall spirit (audible life stream, or "path of sound").

The sound is a manifestation of spirit, as I said earlier. Physical sound, what we are used to, is a vibration of the molecules around us. Our ear can pick up the movement of air molecules, and that's what we experience as sound. The sound referred to in the light and sound teachings is not a physical sound. It's a direct manifestation of the spirit itself, the same stuff our soul is made from (and will return to). So I think of the path of sound as a stream of spirit that descends through the planes until it reaches the astral plane but no further. To return to spirit (and god), one must focus one's attention (concentrate the attention) until one reaches this stream of sound, whereupon the sound, moving back upward through the planes, lifts your consciousness along with it, much like a leaf in a stream of water.

That's the best I can do in a short space. I realize it's not a very accurate explanation--it's much clearer when one starts experiencing the sound. I feel like I'm trying to describe the taste of chocolate but I can't simply just give you a piece for you to taste yourself. Let's say that the sound is the spiritual essence of things (for now).

Do you have an actual perception of something heard.

Reason I ask is because I followed a Guru from India for a while who taught light and sound. There was some other things too be this was part of it.

I can perceive this light and sound whenever I want. I don't talk about it much because unless you experience it for yourself it is hard to explain. However these perceptions are real. As real to me as anything else one perceives and accepts as reality.

In a totally dark room I see light. I tune out the sound because it gets loud sometimes. But the light and sound is always there if I pay attention.

I was just curious if this is similar. Are you taught to perceive this light and sound?

 

[no-body]

Actually, I find this to be a good sign. Truth is universal. At no point does Gary say he's got a monopoly on it. He cites past masters and acknowledges them. The value of a true outer master is that he provides a focus for the attention. People can sit around and contemplate their whole lives and never experience more than flashes of light. Perhaps you agree that whatever you put your attention on, you move towards. Gary provides a focus. Once a student reaches that point (meeting with inner master) the outer master has served his purpose and there's no more need for him.

I'm think Gary started masterpath so that he could operate in a non-profit manner. It's not an ego thing--he cautions against worshipping him as a man. He only asks for respect as a teacher--he repeats this at every seminar now. Masterpath is a non-profit organization. You can look it up. Yes, and here comes the tax-free comments again. Yes, a non-profit is tax free... because there are no profits to tax. You have a big problem with someone charging you for books, but even the books in the library are not "free". You pay taxes for municipal services like public libraries. Students receive weekly discourses in the mail. I wonder why people would want to receive such things for free--doesn't it cost money to pay people to print copies, stuff envelopes, and send them out?

I want to make abundantly clear (again), that I am not trying to convince anyone to be on the masterpath! I want everyone to find the teaching that appeals to them most. That's what will have the most value. If you feel that going to a library and letting the books there be your teacher, please do so! However, to just say Gary is out to cheat people of their money is completely false. His teachings not only work for me, but for thousands of people. Yes, I know that the very next response to this is that we are all deluded. 46 pages of this thread have made it abundantly clear that some people think Gary is a "fraud". A fraud is someone that offers something to you in exchange for something else, but the thing they offer you turns out to not be real or of any value. The teachings have immense value for me, because nothing else I've ever read or done or attempted has given me the results I'm experiencing.

So, if I am experiencing great unfoldment in consciousness, Gary is not a fraud for me. He's legit for the vast majority of his students, no matter what a very small minority believes. I haven't read more than a handful of distinct posters in this thread claiming to be ex-chelas. We've already discussed how not everyone is ready for the path, and that sparked a whole other round of indignation.

Forget masterpath for a moment. Look around you. The vast majority of the people I see don't even really want God. They want a job that pays more, a bigger house. They want an ideal mate (whatever that means to them), maybe children, attention from others, people to tell them they are great. They don't really want spirit or God. So that's what's meant by being ready.

I don't have a problem with providing spiritual services and courses for a fee if people come to you and seek it. But trying to say it is a non-profit is decidedly dishonest when it is clearly not that along with having to pay different "levels" as if spirituality is like amway are huge red flags.

 

[Vichar]

I don't have a problem with providing spiritual services and courses for a fee if people come to you and seek it. But trying to say it is a non-profit is decidedly dishonest when it is clearly not that along with having to pay different "levels" as if spirituality is like amway are huge red flags.

How is it clearly not for profit? You can look up masterpath as a company. It's a non-profit organization. This is fact that can be confirmed online. I take issue with comments like "trying to say it is a non-profit is decidedly dishonest when it is clearly not" because I have evidence and you do not.

go here:
www2.guidestar.org

look up masterpath.

See that it's non-profit.

Now try to call me dishonest again.

And there aren't any "levels", whatever you've been told. All chelas pay $30 / month for study materials. Some chelas who can't pay work out a lower fee with Gary. Aside from that, there are no "levels". Why are you just making stuff up?

 

[Vichar]

Do you have an actual perception of something heard.

Reason I ask is because I followed a Guru from India for a while who taught light and sound. There was some other things too be this was part of it.

I can perceive this light and sound whenever I want. I don't talk about it much because unless you experience it for yourself it is hard to explain. However these perceptions are real. As real to me as anything else one perceives and accepts as reality.

In a totally dark room I see light. I tune out the sound because it gets loud sometimes. But the light and sound is always there if I pay attention.

I was just curious if this is similar. Are you taught to perceive this light and sound?

Yes. I experience something similar to what you are experiencing. The perceptions are quite real, just as you say. I "hear" the sound, but if I were physically deaf I would still hear the sound. I don't hear the sound with my physical ears, but the sensory perception for me is... similar. It's almost as if the physical sound is a poor mimicry of the audible life stream. Or maybe the spirit at this stage (trapped in the body) only has two inputs, light and sound, and the physical sound heard by the body is "translated" into the sound perception by the soul.

 

[Nakosis]

Yes. I experience something similar to what you are experiencing. The perceptions are quite real, just as you say. I "hear" the sound, but if I were physically deaf I would still hear the sound. I don't hear the sound with my physical ears, but the sensory perception for me is... similar. It's almost as if the physical sound is a poor mimicry of the audible life stream. Or maybe the spirit at this stage (trapped in the body) only has two inputs, light and sound, and the physical sound heard by the body is "translated" into the sound perception by the soul.

It doesn't seem to have a lot in common with CoS. So I don't understand the comparison some make here.

So far it seems similar to what I was taught 35 years ago. I understand it has been taught in India for a long time through different masters.

 

[Vichar]

It doesn't seem to have a lot in common with CoS. So I don't understand the comparison some make here.

So far it seems similar to what I was taught 35 years ago. I understand it has been taught in India for a long time through different masters.

That is my understanding as well. Apparently there are always masters around to help out.

Of course, there's much more to my experiences on the path than what we've just discussed. There are the answers to questions framed internally, imagery, satsangs on the inner, feeling of serenity, objectivity of viewpoint, expansions of awareness, neutrality, detachment, increased ability to consciously place attention, increased ability to shift attitude (for example, if feeling sad to not feel sad by conscious choice), profound sensation of movement (like a roller coaster or plane, but much much faster) when attention is focused for long enough at the tisra til, etc. I think we're just agreeing that the light and sound are real things that can be seen and heard, even if it's not with the physical sensory organs.

 

[Nakosis]

That is my understanding as well. Apparently there are always masters around to help out.

Of course, there's much more to my experiences on the path than what we've just discussed. There are the answers to questions framed internally, imagery, satsangs on the inner, feeling of serenity, objectivity of viewpoint, expansions of awareness, neutrality, detachment, increased ability to consciously place attention, increased ability to shift attitude (for example, if feeling sad to not feel sad by conscious choice), profound sensation of movement (like a roller coaster or plane, but much much faster) when attention is focused for long enough at the tisra til, etc. I think we're just agreeing that the light and sound are real things that can be seen and heard, even if it's not with the physical sensory organs.

I know what satsang is.

A lot of people don't comprehend that we are capable of control over our emotions. They don't believe me.

So there is a reality to what is taught. I don't know about the whole Master thing. I was told there had to be a teacher available to enable this.

I was relatively young at the time so can't say otherwise. Now I'm stuck with this sound and light nobody else around me can hear or see.

 

[no-body]

How is it clearly not for profit? You can look up masterpath as a company. It's a non-profit organization. This is fact that can be confirmed online. I take issue with comments like "trying to say it is a non-profit is decidedly dishonest when it is clearly not" because I have evidence and you do not.

go here:
www2.guidestar.org

look up masterpath.

See that it's non-profit.

Now try to call me dishonest again.

Bureaucratic technicalities does not a non-profit make. Scientology is a non profit too.

And there aren't any "levels", whatever you've been told. All chelas pay $30 / month for study materials. Some chelas who can't pay work out a lower fee with Gary. Aside from that, there are no "levels". Why are you just making stuff up?

My mistake it's been a while since I brushed up on what Master Path is. So how long does someone pay this monthly fee for? Do the materials ever have an end?

 

[Vichar]

Bureaucratic technicalities does not a non-profit make. Scientology is a non profit too.



My mistake it's been a while since I brushed up on what Master Path is. So how long does someone pay this monthly fee for? Do the materials ever have an end?

I would imagine that once I contact the inner master it hardly matters whether I continue to pay dues or get study materials or not. Once the student reaches the third eye (consolidates energy there and can hold), and meets the inner master, spiritual exercises have served their purpose, and so has Gary. That's what Gary teaches.

 

[no-body]

I would imagine that once I contact the inner master it hardly matters whether I continue to pay dues or get study materials or not. Once the student reaches the third eye (consolidates energy there and can hold), and meets the inner master, spiritual exercises have served their purpose, and so has Gary. That's what Gary teaches.

Nice evasive answer.

How long have you been paying monthly dues for materials and do you still pay them?

 

[Vichar]

I know what satsang is.

A lot of people don't comprehend that we are capable of control over our emotions. They don't believe me.

So there is a reality to what is taught. I don't know about the whole Master thing. I was told there had to be a teacher available to enable this.

I was relatively young at the time so can't say otherwise. Now I'm stuck with this sound and light nobody else around me can hear or see.

I was also told that there has to be a master available to enable this. I didn't experience either light or sound before meeting the outer master, so if someone is able to without doing so I'd be interested to learn about that case.

I understand what you mean about the light and sound. When you tell someone that you see and hear it, they are quick to either feel jealous or angry or upset that it contradicts their own religious / spiritual beliefs. Then there's a big crazy bit where people try to convince you that, no, you're just imagining things and none of it's real. Also, in the case of this lovely forum, you get people telling you that, no, the master that put you in contact with the sound is a fraud. So I very much understand what you're going through Nakosis. But really, you don't need others to understand, right? Your path home to god is just for you.

Everyone else: Nakosis seems like he might be an example of someone who was taught light and sound by a different master. Gary has mentioned there are other light and sound masters, and he mentioned India. So once again, Gary is not saying he's the only master in the world.

I got what I was promised, and still do. Confirmed receipt, not a fraud. If you're not looking for God and spirit (and your true self) don't go anywhere near masterpath, please. It's not a social club, it's not to meet other people in the flesh, it's not to worship an outer master, it has nothing to do with making you rich, famous, or fixing any mental or physical ailments you might have. Don't go to masterpath if these are your goals.

 

[Vichar]

Nice evasive answer.

How long have you been paying monthly dues for materials and do you still pay them?

I'm not trying to be evasive. I've been paying dues for eight years. It's not a quick process, but I do see amazing inner progress. I'm nothing close to the person I was eight years ago. I don't know when dues end because there's no set time on it. Some students are more disciplined than I am, and I suspect some might be less disciplined. I haven't established myself in the third eye yet, and I don't know when it will occur. I feel like it's something that will occur when it should, and not before. The path never promises that there's a fixed time for it... in fact, conservative estimates range from 1-3 lifetimes! This is enough to scare most people away, especially if they don't believe they live more than one lifetime. So again, don't even think about masterpath if you aren't in it for the long haul. Stay away.

Let me ask you, when will you stop paying cell phone bills? When will you stop paying income tax?

By the way, why would I try to be evasive? I've answered every sincere question posed to me as honestly and as succinctly as I can. I'll reiterate: I don't want people to go join masterpath unless they really want god or spirit. Any other motivation, and it's a massive waste of everyone's time (and money). I'm not affiliated with the path in any way other than being a student. I don't collect money, I don't recruit, and I haven't been asked to post in this forum. The only reason I come here is for the chance to channel the sound. I wouldn't even do that, but the master recently gave (tentative) permission for students to post online if they felt they could maintain a high level of vibration while doing so, and not rise to take the bait of people who attack the path, criticize the master, or insult me personally. I feel like I'm doing a poor job because some of what I've written comes off as a defense of the path. I'm just trying to write what I feel is true, and people that don't agree with me seem to be really interested in trying to discredit me. I am not part of the masterpath staff--attacking me isn't going to get you anywhere, and there's little point in trying to convince me masterpath is a fraud. Masterpath promises I'll experience certain things if I'm disciplined, and I do. Really, it's not complex. If you are an ex chela, and didn't experience what Gary said you would, is it the path, or is it you? Because every current chela I speak to says they experience incredible changes in their consciousness. Maybe you had ulterior motives, or weren't disciplined, or bought into pressure from other people? In a true path of spirituality, your own opinion is worth the most.

 

[no-body]

I'm not trying to be evasive. I've been paying dues for eight years. It's not a quick process, but I do see amazing inner progress. I'm nothing close to the person I was eight years ago. I don't know when dues end because there's no set time on it. Some students are more disciplined than I am, and I suspect some might be less disciplined. I haven't established myself in the third eye yet, and I don't know when it will occur. I feel like it's something that will occur when it should, and not before. The path never promises that there's a fixed time for it... in fact, conservative estimates range from 1-3 lifetimes! This is enough to scare most people away, especially if they don't believe they live more than one lifetime. So again, don't even think about masterpath if you aren't in it for the long haul. Stay away.

holy crap

Let me ask you, when will you stop paying cell phone bills? When will you stop paying income tax?

I live a very simple, austere life. Many people would categorize me as insane for living how I do and even I think you are involved in a scam.

By the way, why would I try to be evasive? I've answered every sincere question posed to me as honestly and as succinctly as I can. I'll reiterate: I don't want people to go join masterpath unless they really want god or spirit. Any other motivation, and it's a massive waste of everyone's time (and money). I'm not affiliated with the path in any way other than being a student. I don't collect money, I don't recruit, and I haven't been asked to post in this forum. The only reason I come here is for the chance to channel the sound. I wouldn't even do that, but the master recently gave (tentative) permission for students to post online if they felt they could maintain a high level of vibration while doing so, and not rise to take the bait of people who attack the path, criticize the master, or insult me personally. I feel like I'm doing a poor job because some of what I've written comes off as a defense of the path. I'm just trying to write what I feel is true, and people that don't agree with me seem to be really interested in trying to discredit me. I am not part of the masterpath staff--attacking me isn't going to get you anywhere, and there's little point in trying to convince me masterpath is a fraud. Masterpath promises I'll experience certain things if I'm disciplined, and I do. Really, it's not complex. If you are an ex chela, and didn't experience what Gary said you would, is it the path, or is it you? Because every current chela I speak to says they experience incredible changes in their consciousness. Maybe you had ulterior motives, or weren't disciplined, or bought into pressure from other people? In a true path of spirituality, your own opinion is worth the most.

I have nothing to do with Master path, the thing that offends me most is Gary is just repackaging well known New age beliefs and charging for it as some sort of secret and new thing.

 

[apophenia]

I have nothing to do with Master path, the thing that offends me most is Gary is just repackaging well known New age beliefs and charging for it as some sort of secret and new thing.

I have seen so many examples of this over the years. In Australia we had a magazine called 'Living Now' which was full of adverts for 'life coaches', 'inner quests', 'alternative healing modalities' etc etc. It made my skin crawl to be honest. The spiritual supermarket is a churning broth of 'seekers' who eventually decide to put up a sign and become a guru. And in the back of my mind I see and hear an audience on 'Oprah' whooping it up under the direction of cue cards ... slipping seamlessly between wild excitement over the freebies under their seats, hushed reverence for some new variation of 'the secret' or Eckhart Tolle, and tears of catharsis over yet another hero rising from tragedy. The audience are like Pavlov's dogs.

Master Path has all the signs of yet another charismatic with a business plan.

The material reads like a classic teaser campaign, driving you inexorably toward pulling out your credit card.

Meditation is not so hard to learn. The facts about your own nature may be. In the end, your path is defined by your intentions and actions, and by your commitment to undergoing the path defined by your own conscience. Handing that responsibility, and your credit card details, to a waffling charismatic is not something I would recommend.

 

[Vichar]

I have seen so many examples of this over the years. In Australia we had a magazine called 'Living Now' which was full of adverts for 'life coaches', 'inner quests', 'alternative healing modalities' etc etc. It made my skin crawl to be honest. The spiritual supermarket is a churning broth of 'seekers' who eventually decide to put up a sign and become a guru. And in the back of my mind I see and hear an audience on 'Oprah' whooping it up under the direction of cue cards ... slipping seamlessly between wild excitement over the freebies under their seats, hushed reverence for some new variation of 'the secret' or Eckhart Tolle, and tears of catharsis over yet another hero rising from tragedy. The audience are like Pavlov's dogs.

Master Path has all the signs of yet another charismatic with a business plan.

The material reads like a classic teaser campaign, driving you inexorably toward pulling out your credit card.

Meditation is not so hard to learn. The facts about your own nature may be. In the end, your path is defined by your intentions and actions, and by your commitment to undergoing the path defined by your own conscience. Handing that responsibility, and your credit card details, to a waffling charismatic is not something I would recommend.

The interesting thing about this forum is that people speaking out against the masterpath have largely concluded that I am some flavor of oblivious, naive, or brainwashed individual. The truth is, all I have to do is shift my angle of vision a few degrees and I see exactly what people are saying. Why wouldn't I? I'm a scientist. I never bought into any kind of religion, and yet when I was in college I would get into arguments with my psychology professors arguing over the existence of soul. My rational, society-trained mind knows exactly what following an American guru must look like. (Ironically, people seem to believe following an Indian guru is much more credible. Even if that guru wants 10% of your income, it's somehow more legit.) (Even more ironic, in the midst of all this mud-flinging at me, I can have a lovely conversation with a fellow who had an Indian guru, and it turns out in all probability his beliefs are probably 99% in common with mine. I do notice that the truly spiritual parts of this conversation go almost completely unnoticed by everyone, almost as if it's on a different wavelength or something. Nakosis, thanks for a lovely interlude from hysterical accusations.)

I've talked about how my reasons for coming here are to channel the spirit. It's unfortunate that the masterpath has chosen a hokey name to call itself. It's ironic that the above poster refers to Gary as a "charismatic" because I don't think he's particularly charismatic. He pronounces all kinds of words incorrectly, sometimes makes mistakes in speech, writes kind of funny, dresses oddly, and frankly, I just want to roll my eyes any time Gary attempts to say something even vaguely scientific during one of his talks. My mind doesn't feel particularly drawn to Gary at all.

But I can't deny what's going on in my consciousness. I experience something qualitatively different than anything I've ever experienced before. People talk about meditation, talk about meeting their spirit guides, and other new age stuff as if they are synonymous with spirituality. I had that same kind of attitude until I stumbled upon masterpath. My friend from college used to talk about his "teacher" and I didn't think anything of it until one day he appended the word "spiritual" in front of teacher. Something inside me immediately demanded to know more... I remember being a little irritated because I had known my friend for many years and yet it wasn't until years later he mentioned he was a chela of Gary's.

My mind didn't like Gary. I have no problem admitting that. And my mind saw exactly what the above poster sees in the written works: it smacks of exploitation of the infomercial kind.

But like I said, I'm a scientist. I had to scratch that itch inside that compelled me to investigate. There was something else in the teachings too. I'm convinced now that light and sound is the true path. I'm not terribly concerned about what people think of Gary. Light and sound is the truth path. I followed the instructions in the works, and they... worked. I couldn't believe it. But the results are repeatable, just like any kind of science. Science and religion really aren't different things after all; they are simply lesser, diluted reflections of the true path.

Frankly? There's nothing secret about the teachings. When spirit awakens inside of you, everything starts looking familiar. The words themselves don't even seem to mean anything next to what's going on inside when I read the works. It defies explanation, and I do a terrible job here of explaining it (forgive me for that). I see exactly what the poster two posts up is saying too: why should you pay for something when new age teachings are free? Isn't masterpath just another new age teaching?

I have to say, I cringe every time I look at masterpath from the outside in. A part of me wishes Gary didn't charge anything for the path. Of course when I contemplate it seriously I realize he must charge for the path. Masterpath is the way it is specifically the way you hide something valuable in plain sight. For those not meant to find it, even if they have masterpath paraded in front of them day and night they will feel turned off by it. For someone like me, there doesn't seem to be any way for me to avoid being drawn to it, despite the aversion my mind feels. It's almost like a cheesy roadside billboard that hides a genuine goldmine underneath it.

I have to resist the urge to respond to every comment that dismisses masterpath as a scam. Because it's perfect. Folks, masterpath isn't for you if you feel that way. And of course I know that you'll go off and tell anyone that asks about it that it's a scam. And you should. That's only to be expected, and I'll bet if Gary heard you do it he'd smile. It's this strange transition I'm going through, where my mind can easily relate to what you're saying but my soul is too in love with the sound to want to see things from that viewpoint anymore. So I keep making the same mistake, because everyone is soul and the path really is for everyone... just not right now, perhaps. And that's perfect too.

Gary is not the only true master in the world. Masterpath isn't the only light and sound path. Light and sound is the true path. It's not some kind of religion or new age teaching. Its truth is marked indelibly inside of everyone. A true path can only be true if it's about love and it includes everyone.

It's easy to make up stories about something you don't understand. There's this guy a few pages back going on at length about how I'm not doing my homework and how I haven't done my due diligence researching this or that. It's really ironic because even the ex-chelas that come here bashing the path never really put in the discpline to understand what it was really about. Folks, it's not a four year program. You don't get an advanced degree in spirituality so you can parade around in front of people showing off how spiritual you are. Spirituality is a forever thing. You never stop expanding in consciousness and the wonderful adventure never ends. Of course if I say the path takes 3 lifetimes people will roll their eyes at me. A lot of people don't even believe in reincarnation--and why should they? Their daily life is what seems the most real at this time, and all other perceptions are based upon it. Only the truly sincere are willing to spend their whole lives searching for truth.

If the path were free in the way you want it to be, it would draw all sorts of insincere people looking for love but not willing to give up any of their cherished ideals. What would be the point? Without pouring out some of the old indoctrination in your cup, there's no way to fill it with spirit. The path would be full of freeloaders and people looking for a hand-out (in spirit). My friend is a school teacher and he sees this a lot: kids just want to avoid hassle, and whine and plead and try to find any way they can to avoid doing the work. But when the sincere kid actually tries to do their work, they surprise themselves with the success they encounter.

So yeah, Gary has to charge for the path. It's the gaudy billboard that leads the insincere to keep on driving down the road. Keep your money, live life as you see fit, and do what you want to do. Masterpath isn't for you unless you see an odd something else in my words, not the words themselves, but in the vibe underneath around and inside them that won't stop nagging you. For the rest of you, I'll try to stop responding when you continue to bash the path. It's part of the plan, and I have a hard time remembering that sometimes.

TLDR: If you think masterpath is a colossal waste of time and money for you, you are right. Stay far away from masterpath. If you think masterpath is a true light and sound path worth investigating, you are right. Both of these are correct. If you think these two statements are contradictory, you are in the first group, and you should also stay away from masterpath.

 

[end_of_faith]

Vichar,

Circular reasoning runs throughout your verbose discourse-y responses. Meaning the conclusion of your proposition is used to support the statement as a truism.

EX: "It's the gaudy billboard that leads the insincere to keep on driving down the road." Really? So, it is a foregone conclusion (in your group-think mind) that people questioning or opposed to fees being charged for spirituality are insincere? Other examples include characterizing dissenting voices as not ready for the MP, undisciplined, etc.

Yes I view Gary as a spiritual fraud. That conclusion is based on 25 years of very close association.

You believe Gary is a true master. That conclusion is based on 8 years of little to no association.

My conclusion is based on serious, committed, and disciplined involvement spanning a great deal of time and experience. My conclusion or dissenting voice is not hate-filled, angry, or path bashing. It is the end result of my love and devotion.

But I do understand how a "chela" cannot accept the opinion or internal experience of someone that diametrically opposes his or her "truth."

The reality of what we call truth is sustained by the energy of belief. Critical thinking about or questioning why we believe what we believe changes the reality of what we call truth.

Last, a friendly suggestion: get off the cross. No one is attacking you.

 

[Still_Kicking]

Vichar,
I read EOF's comments above my own here, and could not have said it better.

She has the credibility that I spoke of, and it was one of the sources that I spoke of, besides what others have stated on the city-data thread that I was writing about previously. I have talked with some of them directly on the phone and conversed off line via email as well. Not hearsay but directly from them. This is notwithstanding my own conclusions that I had drawn from being a very sincere chela for more than 8 years, and only after my own decision to leave did I eventually find the city-data forum thread. It was the stacking up of years of inconsistencies, contradictions, and more than a few notable abuses that I personally witnessed that I could not follow a person who called themselves a master and a saint when his very behavior was in direct contradiction with what was ethical and morally upright (by multiple faith's standards).

You call it hearsay when someone recounts what they have witnessed or experienced. I do have to ask do you even know what hearsay is? Can you even define it?

I can likely say without too much of a leap here, that both EOF and myself feel, believe and know Gary to be con man and a charlatan. We know we got conned, we were gullible, we were taken for being "sheep" - but no more, we are enlightened to the truth about this man.

Vichar let me ask you a genuine and sincere question.

If someone conned you out of your valuable time and $$, and in addition you lost good relationships all because of association with a self-proclaimed master and saint and you came to eventually see and believe, incontrovertibly so, that he was lying to you and likely himself, ("if you say it enough times eventually you'll believe it") and as a result was taking you for a ride. How would you honestly feel? -- this is not a rhetorical question but a genuine question.

Who in their heart of hearts would not be angry, hurt and generally ticked off about that? I would think that any honest, sincere and genuine seeker would more than likely feel the way I just described above, especially after say 8 years of being a devoted student, let alone 25 years in the case of EOF.

Which brings me to my point. Being focused on making sure that there is an alternative viewpoint on this man and the havoc that can be caused in one's life as a potential threat to one's well-being, spiritual or otherwise as a result of participating on the MP definitely needs to be aired out for people to see.

Does that make it less spiritual to state that? - I don't think so.

I read what you said about spiritual maturity re: the subject of anger. I would suggest actually another viewpoint on the subject. If an 'anger' (of any type) persists in someone's mind then from the higher spiritual viewpoint what is being asked here is, what is the higher response to this transgression going to be? (again reiterating that anger is normal emotional response to a perceived or real threat to one's self).

Doing a quick back of the napkin analysis going after Gary physically and doing him harm to him, might make my lower / baser emotions happy / sated but it wouldn't address the issue, (his being a con-man and a charlatan) nor would it correct the issues of the past (chelas murdering one another, relationships breaking up, etc..). Challenging the veracity of this man's claim's to sainthood is certainly fair game, as Gary has stated this is a world of war, (meme's being projected violently into other's subjective consciousness - making statements that all other paths are lesser because they follow dead masters, that other paths are not the highest path, etc...) are all subtle examples of back-handed comments that make my point. All of this does seem to conveniently seems to slip right by your critical thinking capacities. Hmmm.....

Best of luck with the proselytizing, as for me I'm going to continue to challenge the veracity of this man and this thing called MP, since it had such a negative effect upon me and more than a few that I know.

 

[apophenia]

People make the mistake of associating their experiences with a particular teacher or religion.IMHO.

There is no need to equate the validity of your experience with the first person who describes something similar. Nor does having an experience after hearing instructions from someone imply that they, and their teaching, are responsible for your experience.

I have introduced many people to sitting meditation and other processes, and have noted how easy it would be to play the guru and act as if I were something special, when in fact that experience was always right there ready to happen. In fact, I have had to point that out to people who were prepared, even enthusiastic, to regard me as some kind of guru when all I did was point out something which was always their own .

I would say to Vichar, continue your meditation with or without a 'master'. Your actual experience is irrefutable. You don't need anyones approval or confirmation at this point.

I would add that the reason it is often said that a master is necessary is that the process of meditation tends to unlock and reveal deep inner processes, and this can cause the meditator to become attached to personal dramas. I know from experience that this is the role of Tibetan lamas, as they have expressed it to me. They are also well aware that their students will idolise them and place them on a pedestal, and project divine qualities onto them etc. The virtue of a school such as those of Tibetan buddhism (just for example) is that the lamas keep an eye on one another as well. A single charismatic guru acting alone can become a real problem, because they are human, and the devotion and adoration can go to their heads.

Eventually, the student works all this out. On the way, there may be times when they feel that they have been tricked into seeing an ordinary fallible human as something way more than that. This can cause the student to feel that they have been stooged. They have been ... by their own projections.

This is why Robert Fripp (musician and 'Gurdjieffian' teacher) said "First the teacher suffers the indignity of perfection, and later the indignity of imperfection".

 

[Zeeker]

Eventually, the student works all this out. On the way, there may be times when they feel that they have been tricked into seeing an ordinary fallible human as something way more than that. This can cause the student to feel that they have been stooged. They have been ... by their own projections.

Apophenia pretty much says it as it is.

Following a guru, into your future lifetimes, to reach some unattainable state beyond human perfection, because you have become convinced that they are the one-and-only “god,” must be a self-imposed delusion? Sure, a teacher can show you the way; but a true teacher will sooner or later make you stand on your own feet and walk alone (in this lifetime), without forever isolating you to their exclusive authority. You have come to believe you have entered into a spiritual bind you are unable to get out of. You are NOT in a spiritual bind! You are in a psychological bind that can be overcome by your own dedicated efforts. If you are willing to acknowledge own faculties of critical thinking and powers of observation, and can listen to them above anyone or anything else, you will begin see right through it all, and recognize your experience for what it truly is.

“I pretty much believe almost nothing of what I hear and half of what I see. Because of my occupation, logical explanations have made me accept that most of what people see as supernatural does not exist. Until I see something that cannot be explained or that I cannot reproduce, I stand by my conviction that the world is full of lots of hocus pocus bullshxx. If I see something that seems unlikely or impossible, I work backwards until I have figured it out.” – Criss Angel, mentalist/hypnotist/illusionist :clap

 

[Vichar]

Thank you all for very moderate responses. They are for the most part very reasonable, and I appreciate that.

Nor do I disagree with some of what is being said since the last time I posted. I realize that the teachings may be correct but that does not necessarily make Gary a true master. But I've said that before, and what I'm saying seems to be lost in people projecting onto me. Just because it wasn't working for you, or you (incorrectly) idolized Gary the man, is not my problem / fault. Nor does it make Gary a fraud. You didn't understand the teachings, and that's not my fault either.

End_of_faith doesn't seem to think anyone is attacking me, but she conveniently discounts her previous posts and other posts from other people. EOF, you wonder why I quoted you from the other (city-data) thread. It's to remind you to be civil, and that even in this thread you have not been. Getting off a cross? I would suggest that you are the sensitive one here, prone to lashing out at other posters (whom you have never actually met in person) with little or no provocation. Go back and read your statements and tell me again that you're not attacking anyone. If you believe that you haven't been attacking people in your previous posts, you're deceiving yourselves. Anyone reading this can just scroll back a few pages, or go to city-data to see that. Some people are actually making physical threats against Gary in this very thread. I'm always amazed by the lack of people's personal honesty with themselves.

Hearsay? You have nothing to prove your experiences except your claim here. I am simply suggesting that giving your biased opinion on someone without actual sources (other than your testimony) does not give you free license to bash a man online. You think it's fact, I think you're deceiving yourself. People give Gary money, he provides them with teachings. They study, and get profound results. That's not the definition of fraud in my book. If you don't get results, that doesn't give you license to torch him online, and it's a very loud statement about your spirituality and your level of consciousness that you think this is OK behavior, spirituality.

And I find it interesting that most of you don't spend much time talking about spirituality, but rather just bashing Gary. I actually very much appreciate apophenia's response because he's actually trying to help, giving his viewpoint in a fairly neutral manner. He talks about meditation and his own experiences, which is very much back on topic. @apophenia, thank you. I think your view is very valid. Again, just because a person is getting results does not mean the teacher is the source. The correlation of these events does not necessarily imply causation. To this I will just point out that I have spoken with several other chelas on this very topic and they have come from other paths and other experiences. They report not having the same results until they came to mp. In my case, I haven't been a part of any other spiritual path (in this lifetime), so I admit that in my own case what you say may be particularly relevant. Since my participation on the path is such a very little expenditure of financial resources, and I continue to get very life-changing results, I'm not inclined to change my behavior. I'll say it a third time, though, my own personal decision does not make your point any less valid: I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I think I have a very healthy attitude towards Gary. As long as the teachings continue to work for me, I'm going to continue with my study. I'm not recommending him for others that don't feel that way. So I find it interesting that Still_Kicking calls my words "proselytizing" when I'm actually warning those who are opposed to stay away. I don't think some people are reading very carefully.