Master Path - Gary Olsen

[Vichar]

I feel as though a lot of the discussion thus far has been somewhat besides the point. For my part, I tried to answer questions earnestly and in doing so, I allowed myself to get drawn down by-ways which are somewhat less relevant. For example, there's all this discussion about the MasterPath introductory materials. As a chela, I can give them away for free. If someone wants to buy one without having a chela give it to them, I think they are $20. There's not much else to say on the matter, unless that person has the malicious intent of trying to make me look like a liar or misinformed or some other such thing. It is the hallmark of the mind to try and make complex what is very simple spiritually.

Still-Kicking: your specific responses don't quite seem to match the sections you are quoting. Or at very least, you're only addressing what you want to address.

For example, in Paragraph #1, all Gary is saying is that the vast majority of his chelas are still with the path and very happy to be so. I can attest to this. I see the same people again and again at seminars. It's pretty clear from this forum that the facts are never quite accepted by biased individuals. I mentioned this earlier and it was dismissed. Yet, anyone that has been near the path knows that hardly anyone ever leaves the path. There are thousands of chelas now, and I only know of a handful that have left the path. Either we're all really confused, or the very small minority lacked the spiritual discipline to stay the course. In most cases, their ego was offended / hurt by an implication that their own mind was steering them wrong, they wanted to hear they were already realized, or they simply were not willing to put in the proper time into their exercises; spirituality wasn't the most important thing in their lives.

In Paragraph #2, it's also pretty obvious what Gary is saying. I for one believe that there is such a thing as spiritual maturity. If you don't agree, then nothing I say after that sentence will have meaning for you.

It's a little like emotional maturity. An emotionally mature person knows why it's not a good idea to go around insulting others to make themselves look better. The immature person won't understand the mature person's arguments regarding this matter. That's just the way of it, and the same holds true of spiritual maturity.

Spiritually mature people know what love feels like. Not emotional love, or finding an ideal mate, but spiritual love, where you love the spirit itself, and each person is a manifestation of that spirit. Individual, wonderful, and unique, yes, but still part of that same spirit. Any path, belief system, statement, or forum post carries with it a vibration that we can detect.

Gary and his students have never held anything but the highest vibrations in individuals I've had the pleasure of meeting personally. No one is disputing your right to believe what you want to. So if you've met him and he's not for you, this is good too. Go find what speaks to the inner you better. (Maybe you believe as the person above me that it can be contacted on your own.) Do what feels right for you.

But the truth is in the vibration of your forum posts. It's in the tone of what you're saying. A spiritually mature person can easily see where the love is. The truth is never the truth unless it is spoken in love. If you look through this thread, everyone attacking the master is at times angry, upset, or expressing some other form of negative emotion. After my first post here, I was immediately attacked and called a liar. When I calmly pointed this out, I was met with denial and disingenuousness. Sure, we can all come to a forum and post our opinions. To some, it will seem that you are attacking the master and I'm defending him. On an intellectual level, that is true.

On a vibrational level, the spiritually mature person will be able to easily distinguish the intent of each writer. (Some will simply dismiss this as more egotistical nonsense by a person on the MasterPath--I've already seen posts to that effect earlier in this thread.) That spiritually mature person will easily detect that I simply want to answer earnest questions that might help them make a very personal decision for themselves. I'm not attacking anyone, and I really do want everyone to follow the path that's right for them.

After all those words, Still_Kicking, I wonder what you got out of all that. Do you realize that in your attempt to discredit the master, you are actually helping his cause? The vibration of your post does this. Ironically, one of the passages you quoted shows the master saying this very thing: "Therefore, if a seeker can perceive the predominant tone and vibration behind any statement, this will easily reveal whether the individual’s expressed criticism holds either a destructive or constructive purpose."

I'll answer this same question: What am I getting out of posting here? I'm here to represent the truth. Only those with the eyes to see it and the ears to hear will be interested in listening to me. Anyone else will be turned off, turned away, or come at me swinging. That suits me just fine. I want the best for everyone, and I've learned the hard way that for some people, including a past me, Life and all its challenges are the best teacher until one reaches that point where one is tired of their own loud ego / mind. That's when a real Living master will appear--when he actually has a hope of reaching you through your tendency to make an enemy of other people, lack of spiritual discipline, self-loathing, and very appropriate fear of pseudo-gurus who are just trying to take advantage of you.

 

[Vichar]

I was going to add this to the original post, but I saw it was already too long. Let's address the plagiarism accusations. People seem to think that they can own an idea ("intellectual property") and we have laws against that. Gary is teaching the eternal truths. If he copies texts that he found to resonate with him, what is a student to think? You can think, he was copying down teachings so I can study from something, or you can think, wow, this guy is trying to pass off another person's work as his own. Which is the truth? The truth is very easy to see for someone who is simply interested in furthering their own spiritual journey. The idea that you can own an idea is only for people who are clinging to material wealth, or are still laboring under the illusion that the mind can come up with something original on its own (without spirit). The great works that speak to us come from a wellspring of inner truth that no one owns but is rather the spiritual birthright of everyone.

I find it laughable people are quibbling over who owned those written words. All this demonstrates is that those people are still looking at the letter of things and not the spirit of things. Words just point the way, but the truth can only be realized, caught in a flash of spiritual insight. The words themselves only mean what we choose for them to mean, and no one can simply "tell" you the truth. A master points the way, which Gary himself reiterates again and again during his seminars. If anything, he attempts to de-emphasize his role in your unfoldment, stressing your own participation.

OK, now here comes the counter that, if the Master isn't interested in material wealth, why is he charging membership dues or money for his books?

First, the dues are a way of demonstrating sincerity. But this is not a satisfying answer to many. Then I'll just be practical. If you can find a way to write, print, and publish books while supporting the staff that is helping you for free, then maybe you can come here and post criticism about how spirituality should be "free". It's utter nonsense; maybe you're independently wealthy but the rest of us realize that the money is simply a unit of exchange. The master is in the same physical plane as we are in order to reach us at our current level of consciousness--why are you looking for him to pull off "miracles" and circumvent financial pragmatism? A true master should shun miracles, and thereby show us that self-realization is something that we ourselves can achieve. Psuedo-gurus running around and demonstrating miracles should be avoided--they are basically saying, "Look how great I am, follow me!" You want your master to help you understand how great you are, and to guide you to the inner master inside of you.

Gary is charging a modest, practical amount for the books and seminars. I've volunteered my own time to help out a seminars, and I have seen first-hand exactly how tight the financials are. It's a model of efficiency I haven't seen anywhere else in my professional career. Anyone can dig up the financial information for themselves--masterpath is non-profit. If you carefully sift through this thread, you will see all claims to the contrary are simply unfounded hear-say or speculation.

 

[Vichar]

as a MasterPath chela, as to Why you are not allowed to let a prospective member look at the first discourse (or any other discourse for that matter), before they decide to sign up? I would like to know.

One reason, which should be obvious from this thread, is that it's not a good idea to make the works public. People simply won't understand them, and people have a tendency to react to things they don't understand with torches and pitchforks.

Some people would simply grab the contents of said works, quote them in long threads, and pick them apart using the reasoning available to them at their level of consciousness. To be honest, if they really wanted to they could probably get their hands on them to do this anyway. But at least all of us would know that person didn't do it with the path's endorsement, and that their opinions and interpretations were strictly their own.

A more subtle reason, one sincere seekers will instantly resonate with and everyone else will poo-poo on, is just that nothing in life is free, and you should run the other way if you see something that claims to be "free". Is love free? Not the ordinary person's notion of Love. A mate in the physical world is usually interested in either financial security or sex, or emotional co-dependence. (Spiritual relationships do exist, are very rare, and are outside the scope of the previous statement.) Should education be "free"? No, schools and libraries are supported by taxes, so none of that is free. At its core, money is just an invention that tries to provide a medium through which to make a fair exchange of goods and services. If you give someone a sandwich because they are hungry, and keep doing this, eventually they might stop working. Why should they, if the food, shelter, or whatever else they need is simply free? You really don't want things to be free, as this would promote laziness and inequity in our society. This is just for the physical plane--let's think about spiritual terms now.

Should spirituality be "free"? No. Why do you even think people are given a human body at all? We are down in a physical life to learn. It's like homework. What would be the point of giving you exercises to do if someone else just gave you the answers? What would you learn? Spirituality, or more specifically spiritual unfoldment, is not free. You eventually pay for it with things much more dear to you than simply money. A truly sincere student, the only kind that achieves success, eventually comes to realize that they have to give up every mistaken notion, every false idea, and every false idol they have worshiped. Material wealth is only one of the most coarse among these false idols.

The money is just a very small part of this. It just shows that you value something more than the money itself. You're willing to sacrifice a tiny bit of your current value system, unclench your very tight fist on your established belief system. If you're not willing to do this, then the master and the teachings won't have any value for you, and you should go seek out something that doesn't require you to re-examine what you currently believe.

But isn't that the whole definition of enlightenment? What is self-realization if not realizing what we truly are (spirit)? Any sincere seeker is looking to change their perceptions this way, and eventually is only too glad to let go of their previous value system, one which hasn't served them very well.

There's another reason, one that's a little more practical. The works should be read in a certain order. They challenge one's current belief system, and if this is introduced too quickly to a student even their own relative sincerity won't keep them from bolting in the opposite direction. People don't understand that they aren't being asked to give up their spouse, their house, and their job. They are being asked to give up their attachment to them. So the student needs to be slowly and methodically shown which of their current notions (usually all of them) are false, and what is true. Therefore, advanced students are not allowed to show their study materials to starting students. Not that they would, anyway. As advanced students, these reasons are quite obvious to them. The path is a transforming experience, and there really isn't any turning back. You can at best delay the journey for a lifetime by flipping out and running away, but good luck running away from God forever. You'll keep starting awake and in those moments of lucidity you'll wonder what you're still doing sitting in a tiny sandbox when an entire vista is opening before you.

 

[bigbadgirl]

The "master-path" seems like a really good way to earn money. How does one get in on this scam?

 

[Still_Kicking]

Vichar - clearly you are a follower of Gary Olsen, a died in the wool one too? (rhetorical) Wow where do I begin? hmmmm.....

Yes of course I chose to respond to what I wanted to, why respond to something that is NOT relevant to what has been said about former chelas who have left the MP. Or to the issues that are pertinent. That to me is a pointless statement that leads no where of merit or to reasonable discourse on the issues.

The reason why many do not leave the MP is out of fear, fear of losing the perceived connection to god, their own spiritual state, or any other # of things that Gary has stated would happen to chelas if they left the MP. All of them in the negative. You should re-read or even ask again what Gary says about those who leave the MP, what will befall them/you if you should leave the MP. This is a clear fear tactic that he uses, not one of love, clearly and definitively so. That right there should be a clear enough point for anyone who is investigating the MP or has become suspicious of it. A refusal to see that is merely minimizing and rationalizing what Gary has said.

And this is despite what more than a few have come to know as factual and truthful about what has been said here and on other forums about MP and Gary. That should point out to those who would care to see, that this could very well be a sign of brainwashing.

"Spiritual maturity"....really? that is what you've come up with? What defines that? Or by your statements you claim to be one of the spiritually mature? and the rest of us who disagree with the MP and the promotion of it as mere claptrap as being spiritually immature? I for one do not buy that you have it, I only see your attempt to defend it.

And it is claptrap, as was ripped off from Darwin Gros and the Scientology folks, for which he was challenged on. The latter being based off of a drug induced fervor of its founder when describing how he entered into the higher realms. You really should do your homework Vichar because this stuff is simply just foolishness.

Spiritual maturity is definitely not defined by seeing it one way versus another when one of the the people in the debate is an adherent, is blinded by following this narcissistic confidence man. Gary is telling what is known as a "Big Lie" look it up on Wikipedia if you don't know what that is. Let alone all of the other omissions of facts that he has been caught up in from earlier on. I would not trust a single word this man says, yet you do. Fair enough, but do not be so arrogant as to assume that you know what my vibration is. You DO NOT know, and only assume to do so because I am not in agreement with you, that is simply a fallacy. And you have no such powers of observation.

Just because I, or anyone else for that matter, expresses anger does not mean a single thing that you attempt to attribute to me or anyone else is true about our vibrations. In my case I know a boundary was crossed, not only with me, but with a # of others, and when I see boundaries crossed, I have the spiritual right and obligation to say no, and call BS when I see it. That if anything is spiritual maturity, not a lower vibration but a recognition that something is being violated and I do most certainly have an inalienable right to confront it and challenge the (false) beliefs of the MP. Particularly in light of the dysfunctional nature I have seen it wreck on families.

The truth is what the truth is, it needs no tone to be valid. In fact I will quote Wei Wu Wei who said "in order to be effective truth must penetrate like an arrow - and that is likely to hurt". I do not believe as you presuppose that truth not stated in love is not truth, is yet another stupid and inane thing that is presented by the MP as some sort of guiding wisdom. That's utter BS.

What did I get out of it? Simply presenting an alternative viewpoint on the MP and the liar and confidence man that runs it. You might say I am truth teller, just not one of those mealy mouthed ones that allegedly call themselves a teller of truth from the MP. You say you are speaker of the truth, hmmmm.....in fact I have not found a single thing that Gary has said has any bearing on the truth, unless you chose to believe it.

Like I've said before in other forums on this subject, a believed truth, is nothing more than a belief wrapped in denial, and that is called a faith. Something else that I do not have for or share about Gary Olsen or the MP.

So it all comes down to what you believe versus what I believe right? I believe you are being snowed by this man. I believe this man is a pseudo guru and a dangerous one too since all he spreads is stupidity and ignorance and all of this just to line his own pockets so that he can live in his nice little enclave with his olive trees and pretend that he is a spiritual man of importance. Which I know he is not.

Nothing you can say or write will change that fact for me. I do believe all of what I have written here to be a TRUTH.

Try to be a little more tolerant of us former chelas who spent time on the MP and saw behind the curtain to understand what has gone on and came to another conclusion other than your own. It comes across as simply judgmental and intolerant.

 

[Vichar]

The reason why many do not leave the MP is out of fear, fear of losing the perceived connection to god, their own spiritual state, or any other # of things that Gary has stated would happen to chelas if they left the MP. All of them in the negative. You should re-read or even ask again what Gary says about those who leave the MP, what will befall them/you if you should leave the MP. This is a clear fear tactic that he uses, not one of love, clearly and definitively so. That right there should be a clear enough point for anyone who is investigating the MP or has become suspicious of it. A refusal to see that is merely minimizing and rationalizing what Gary has said.

I actually am friends with an ex-chela. She seems to be doing fine, and does not harbor the resentment and anger that you clearly do. Also, you and other ex-chelas in this thread seem to gloss over the point about why we stay. I and other chelas are not "afraid to leave". We stay because we love what we are experiencing in our consciousness. Afraid to leave? My friend clearly wasn't afraid to leave. She did, and I still have the utmost respect for her, and we are still friends. I have no reason to believe in this "scare tactic"; I don't think she was subjected to it.

And this is despite what more than a few have come to know as factual and truthful about what has been said here and on other forums about MP and Gary. That should point out to those who would care to see, that this could very well be a sign of brainwashing.

You don't seem to understand that when you make a slanderous remark about someone publicly, the burden is on you to prove what you have said. So far, I see no proof given anywhere in this thread by anyone that impugns Gary's character, just a lot of hear-say. When I ask for evidence, all I get back are personal attacks and more unproven claims.

"Spiritual maturity"....really? that is what you've come up with? What defines that? Or by your statements you claim to be one of the spiritually mature? and the rest of us who disagree with the MP and the promotion of it as mere claptrap as being spiritually immature? I for one do not buy that you have it, I only see your attempt to defend it.

It doesn't matter to me if you think I'm spiritually mature or not. I'm just trying to get you to look at your own words. I asked another person in this thread and I'll as you: do you think it's a good idea to attack a path, or an individual you don't even know? Since I came on this thread to state my opinion, I've received insults and attacks. I still can't believe that the ex-chelas in this thread won't admit that attacking a path, any path, is just flat out wrong. And make no mistake, unless you come up with some substantial proof backing up your claims about Gary, it's just slander. Do you think it's a spiritual thing, slandering someone, even if you used to be their student? And I did not say you were spiritually immature. I'm just asking if you think the kinds of attacks you are making are.

And it is claptrap, as was ripped off from Darwin Gros and the Scientology folks, for which he was challenged on. The latter being based off of a drug induced fervor of its founder when describing how he entered into the higher realms. You really should do your homework Vichar because this stuff is simply just foolishness.

I freely admit to knowing next to nothing about Darwin Gros or Scientology. You will have to help me out by telling me how that bears upon this discussion. So far as I know, Scientology has nothing to do with Light and Sound teachings, even if they share some terms in common when expressed in the English language.

Spiritual maturity is definitely not defined by seeing it one way versus another when one of the the people in the debate is an adherent, is blinded by following this narcissistic confidence man. Gary is telling what is known as a "Big Lie" look it up on Wikipedia if you don't know what that is. Let alone all of the other omissions of facts that he has been caught up in from earlier on. I would not trust a single word this man says, yet you do. Fair enough, but do not be so arrogant as to assume that you know what my vibration is. You DO NOT know, and only assume to do so because I am not in agreement with you, that is simply a fallacy. And you have no such powers of observation.

I find it interesting that you feel attacking me is the only way you can make your point. And I wasn't saying that you were one way or another, just that your tone reveals that you are still hurt over your separation with the path. The best course of action in my opinion would be to find something that does resonate with you and stop dwelling on something that so clearly upsets you.

Just because I, or anyone else for that matter, expresses anger does not mean a single thing that you attempt to attribute to me or anyone else is true about our vibrations. In my case I know a boundary was crossed, not only with me, but with a # of others, and when I see boundaries crossed, I have the spiritual right and obligation to say no, and call BS when I see it. That if anything is spiritual maturity, not a lower vibration but a recognition that something is being violated and I do most certainly have an inalienable right to confront it and challenge the (false) beliefs of the MP. Particularly in light of the dysfunctional nature I have seen it wreck on families.

I haven't seen any "dysnfunctional nature wrecked [by MP] on families". Another claim of yours. You can be angry if you want to be. All I am saying is that the anger is very clear in your tone, and it undermines your case. If you think being angry is a good idea spiritually, then that's your right to believe that. I wonder though, what you think you are getting out of it. If you want to hurt Gary, being angry isn't going to help. It just hurts you. I'm not asking you to feel any other way, but advice I would give to a stranger would be that healing takes place after anger is released. If Gary did wrong you, wouldn't it be a good idea to prevent it from further harming your life?

The truth is what the truth is, it needs no tone to be valid. In fact I will quote Wei Wu Wei who said "in order to be effective truth must penetrate like an arrow - and that is likely to hurt". I do not believe as you presuppose that truth not stated in love is not truth, is yet another stupid and inane thing that is presented by the MP as some sort of guiding wisdom. That's utter BS.

Actually, I disagree. The truth is only the truth if spoken in love. I can easily use the truth to hurt someone. This should be obvious. If it's not, I can use an example. Say my portly friend asks me if she looks fat. If I say yes, and my intent is to hurt her, it might be the truth by your definition but it certainly is not the spiritual truth.

So it all comes down to what you believe versus what I believe right? I believe you are being snowed by this man. I believe this man is a pseudo guru and a dangerous one too since all he spreads is stupidity and ignorance and all of this just to line his own pockets so that he can live in his nice little enclave with his olive trees and pretend that he is a spiritual man of importance. Which I know he is not.

Nothing you can say or write will change that fact for me. I do believe all of what I have written here to be a TRUTH.

Say I'm being duped by Gary. It's interesting that instead of having pity for me, you lump me in with him and attack me. I've never received a single penny from the path, nor would I want to. All the benefit I've received has been in my consciousness. Yet you seem to believe that it's a good idea to come out guns blazing against me, as if I'm your enemy somehow. But I do not view you as my enemy. When I expressed sympathy for the other angry ex-chela, that person immediately asked me to save my pity for myself. And I do feel sorry for you. Life is precious, and so is the current moment (the only moment). I've experienced some pretty unpleasant effects from being angry. I've offended people, made poor decisions, and messed up my life when I was angry. I've also seen how harboring resentment is a form of personal slavery, and I'm the one holding my own chains. Instead of wondering if others are somehow doing something wrong towards me, I focus my time and attention on moving towards self and god realization. It seems a waste of time to me now to campaign against anything in the lower worlds, when I now realize it's all just a big classroom, with adversity designed to teach me important lessons. I might as well yell at my teacher for giving me homework. That's just my opinion, and I hope you aren't offended by it or think I'm being judgmental. I'm just describing what works for me.

Oh, and you know Gary is not a man of spiritual importance. How do you know, exactly? So far all I see are claims you haven't provided proof for. Olive trees? Really? So it's spiritually wrong to own olive trees (if indeed he does), but it's right to smear a spiritual path?

Try to be a little more tolerant of us former chelas who spent time on the MP and saw behind the curtain to understand what has gone on and came to another conclusion other than your own. It comes across as simply judgmental and intolerant.

Tolerant? I don't see how what I'm saying comes across as intolerant. We agree to disagree. If anything, if you read our posts again you'll see that you're attacking me directly while I'm just addressing your claims.

 

[Still_Kicking]

Well that's great, you're friends with one ex-chela and that makes you an expert on the rest of us who left? (clearly rhetorical)

There you go again, thinking that you actually know what someone is projecting about or what it actually is, and is also an attempt at misdirection away from the negative experiences that more than a few have had and why they left the MP.
How about the chela who murdered his live-in lover and fellow chela?
How about the multiple families who have broken up over the MP?
How about the multiple loving relationships that disintegrated over some perceived conflicting issue stemming from the MP?

If you doubt the veracity of the impact on others was of a negative nature then I suggest that you check out the city-data thread on the subject of Gary Olsen and the MP. DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE you comment back, not unless of course you are incredibly obtuse.

It does give me the right to attack a man who is a liar and thief, again do your homework, go to the city-data website and re-read the whole thread and educate yourself. Your choice to be blind about it, but don't ask the rest of the world to join you in this dangerous man's delusion of self-importance as god realized.

#1 I don't think it's slander when I am telling the truth as I see it about this man and what he promotes as utter BS. I see it as truth telling.

#2 Why is it "flat out wrong to attack a path" that from what I've seen does nothing but promote stupidity and ignorance? Who made those rules up? In fact it was Martin Luther who attacked the indulgences and a # of other issues within the catholic church, his former path, was that wrong too? Or would you have preferred people follow that "path" blindly in spite of its corruption?

#3 A spiritual thing about slandering someone? I am not slandering someone, I am attacking Gary Olsen and his claims about who he is, and the utter nonsense of the MP. That is not slander, that is providing an alternative viewpoint on what he presents as a truth. I do not buy it. You are clearly confused as to the difference.

I freely admit to knowing next to nothing about Darwin Gros or Scientology. You will have to help me out by telling me how that bears upon this discussion. So far as I know, Scientology has nothing to do with Light and Sound teachings, even if they share some terms in common when expressed in the English language.

Then I suggest you, again read the city-data thread about Gary. As well as do your own homework on Darwin Gros and Scientology, or did you really investigate what the MP was all about in the beginning and want someone else to do the work for you? Is that being lazy?

Let me be abundantly clear, I am not attacking you personally, but the thinking that you are presenting here as some sort of truth.

And yet you presume to tell me how I should live my life, by "finding something that I can resonate with and stop dwelling on something that clearly upsets me". Thanks but I am going to do as I please and I am definitely going to haunt every single MP chela that purports to present this false idolatry and crap as some sort of truth. Because I am a truth teller of what I have personally witnessed and what others have told me and written to me about this man and what they have experienced while being on the MP. You in fact are trying by your efforts here to squash free speech, and also attempting to deny my personal truth. As I understand it that is against MP doctrine and policy. Convenient to follow some MP spiritual truths and not others, or is that hypocritical?

I haven't seen any "dysnfunctional nature wrecked [by MP] on families". Another claim of yours. You can be angry if you want to be. All I am saying is that the anger is very clear in your tone, and it undermines your case. If you think being angry is a good idea spiritually, then that's your right to believe that. I wonder though, what you think you are getting out of it. If you want to hurt Gary, being angry isn't going to help. It just hurts you. I'm not asking you to feel any other way, but advice I would give to a stranger would be that healing takes place after anger is released. If Gary did wrong you, wouldn't it be a good idea to prevent it from further harming your life?

Just because you haven't seen the dysfunction, doesn't mean it isn't there, in fact I would go as far as to say, that you can't because you chose not to.

Your statement about my "anger" was an attempt to "redirect" me using MP parlance, and I can assure you that manipulation tactic doesn't work with me, because I see it as misdirection, and not in the least bit spiritual, all to avoid discussing the truth.

My anger does not hurt me, that is utter BS, it is an authentic expression of my true self and what I stated previously that a boundary was violated, and became a necessary and appropriate response towards the one who has done the violating. - Wow you chelas sure do not have any idea about emotions and what their uses are for do you?

Actually, I disagree. The truth is only the truth if spoken in love. I can easily use the truth to hurt someone. This should be obvious. If it's not, I can use an example. Say my portly friend asks me if she looks fat. If I say yes, and my intent is to hurt her, it might be the truth by your definition but it certainly is not the spiritual truth.

A spiritual truth? Really that's what you are reaching for on this? So if you chose to not tell your friend that she was fat, when in fact she was fat, did you actually serve her by denying the truth, or only further serve your own version of what truth is? Facts are facts, denying them by lies of omission do not make them any less true. Now if you said it to hurt her, then that just makes you mean spirited in the context of the conversation, but it does not make her being fat any less true. You can disagree all you want, but this to me is just another example of the compromised thinking that passes for some sort of higher spiritual viewpoint offered up by Gary Olsen, when it is just plain old foolishness, if not outright stupidity. Common sense really has flown the coop when this stuff actually starts getting believed.

Say you're being sincere for a moment, and I'm being duped by Gary. It's interesting that instead of having pity for me, you lump me in with him and attack me, attack my character, and seem defensive towards me. I've never received a single penny from the path, nor would I want to. All the benefit I've received has been inside, in my consciousness. Yet, just like the other ex-chela you seem to believe that it's a good idea to come out guns blazing against me, as if I'm your enemy somehow. Simply because I don't agree with you and I'm not afraid to state that. But I do not view you as my enemy. When I expressed sympathy for the other angry ex-chela, that person immediately asked me to "spare" my pity for myself.

Yeah let's assume that I am sincere, since I think I am. But I am going to reiterate, this isn't an attack on you personally, but the thinking that you present as a truth, and I know it's source is Gary Olsen and the BS that he peddles as spiritual truth when it is not. Or are you your thoughts? If you are your thoughts then it is an attack on you, but by now I would've guessed by now that you would have figured out that they (your thoughts) are not you.

Oh, and it's interesting that after chiding me for speaking about spirtual maturity, you go on to type that you know Gary is not a man of spiritual importance. Without evidence one claim is only about as good as another, yes?

If Gary was who he says he is, (a master of masters). there would not be near as many people who were actual chelas on the city-data thread and on other internet sites like this one, who would take issue with him as they do, now would they?

Tolerant? I don't see how what I'm saying comes across as intolerant. We agree to disagree. If anything, if you read our posts again you'll see that you're attacking me directly while I'm just addressing your claims. I think you are reading the "judgmental" into my words, because you're still angry towards Gary, so anyone that supports his point of view must be, what, evil? Untruthful? It's odd that you're the one calling me judgmental.

Agree to disagree? Hmmm... you still promote Gary's way of presenting things and that the MP is somehow a spiritual high point for people that is worthy of being embraced and followed. I KNOW that it is not. That is my experience and my personal truth.

Are you evil and untruthful? I don't know, but I do know parroting from the MP when I see it, and that is clearly what you are doing here.

Judgement is another thing you should read up on, here a dictionary definition for you. "the cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions". Which one can only arrive at when one has enough facts to know what is truth and what is mere opinion. Yes I judged Gary and the MP to be utter nonsense, dangerous even.

 

[Nakosis]

Don't fall for this scam...Gary Olsen is a liar and a plagiarist. MasterPath is simply his little money making venture. He's a self-proclaimed 'living Master' with zero credibility and lifts his rambling material from Eckankar and the time he spent there back in the day, before starting his MasterPath spinoff.

The only 'enlightenment' will be out of your pocketbook...I wonder, did Buddha charge a monthly fee? Does the Dalai Lama?

Check out the CityData Religion/Philosopy forum...there is some juicy content there about Olsen from ex-members, and a lot of rambling non-sensical stuff from blind devotees.

Enjoy, and best wishes.

Good point. I suspect any true spiritual master would not be seeking a profit.

 

[no-body]

I'm into a lot of new age woo but even I can tell this is nothing but a scam from miles away.

"Not ready for the material" ? Please, if it was really the truth you would just be able to say it. Sounds like scientologies pyramid scheme reason for not releasing its material "you have to be made ready" what a bunch of bullocks.

 

[Falvlun]

Anyone else come into here thinking it was going to be a Farside cartoon?

Makes mental note: Gary Larson not Gary Olsen.

 

[Vichar]

If you doubt the veracity of the impact on others was of a negative nature then I suggest that you check out the city-data thread on the subject of Gary Olsen and the MP. DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE you comment back, not unless of course you are incredibly obtuse.

Actually I read the city-data thread. It contains the same kinds of claims without any proof that this thread does. I'm sorry but even wikipedia has higher standards for citing references than you do. If you reference hear-say in another thread to back up your hear-say, it does not lend you any additional credibility. Citing the words of other angry chelas does not make your angry words any more credible. I'll give you a quote from that city-data thread to illustrate the sort of attitude a reader can look forward to while reading it:

Allan,

You are a fool. Yes, you are blinded by your own blowhard mental certitude and the imaginary belief that Mr. Olsen is in possession of spiritual truth, or that he represents Sant Mat.

You are not here to ‘discuss’ anything with anyone. You are here to do what MasterPath does so well: trash and demean the viewpoint of everyone else in order to elevate yours/theirs. You don’t have the good sense that God gave a goose.

I began MP willing to believe it was a path of truth, love, and wisdom. I ended MP seeing Gary Olsen for the man he is: an arrogant control-freak caught in the illusion of his own grandiose pseudo-spirituality. It seems you resonate with that level of consciousness. You prove that water seeks its own level. Continue reveling in your self-delusion, and projecting it onto others as though you see truth and they do not. You don’t “GET IT” Allan.

People like you are most helpful to men like Gary. I know that you are clueless. And while you praise your own spewing of nonsensical ************ as evidence of critical thinking skills, you seem far more focused and intent on deflecting critical thinking in others, and it appears that you are the ONLY one on this forum who can’t see straight.

Your research is flimsy at best. Your motivations are self-serving. And your rational mind is non-existent. You exude the irrational lunacy of a person who defends a belief system that cannot be substantiated on anything other than what you have been spoon-fed. And you, my friend, will be the last to see it.

FYI: I haven’t even bothered to read most of what you have written. A quick perusal suffices. Your rebuttals to everyone sound like a record stuck on a one-dimensional note of discordant repetition.

And by the way, I’m not here looking for support. News Flash for you Allan: NOT necessary or a requirement to be a paying member of the MP cult to know truth, you moron. You clearly lack the depth of inner commune you so self-righteously proselytize on the outer. You exhibit signs of having no self-awareness whatsoever. You repeatedly show that it isn’t a thoughtful discussion you wish to engage with people, it’s the Allan show: lambast everyone on this forum with Allan’s insatiable need to be RIGHT. Which makes you the most wrong!

And just so you know: it isn’t anger that moves me. In fact, this forum has brought me a great deal of laughter. It has been a blast for me to read thoughts expressed by the participants that are rational, clever, witty, and profound. And I’m not referring to you.

Word to the wise, Allan: In your misguided attempt to ‘set the record straight’ for people, what you are really doing is revealing just how brainwashed and lost you are.

Put simply, your attitude towards me is just as inappropriate as the above quoted chela's words are towards Allan from that other thread. It's mean-spirited, and not even close to coming from a spiritual source. I don't expect you to understand, given your reaction to my comment about the truth being the truth only if it's spoken in love.

I guess I didn't really have any expectations of you understanding what I had to say, but I had to try. However, someone more interested in spirituality than you are will easily vibe out what I was getting at. You're so focused on the words, the outer shapes of things. You nurture your hate and anger as if they really mean something to you:

Your statement about my "anger" was an attempt to "redirect" me using MP parlance, and I can assure you that manipulation tactic doesn't work with me, because I see it as misdirection, and not in the least bit spiritual, all to avoid discussing the truth.

My anger does not hurt me, that is utter BS, it is an authentic expression of my true self and what I stated previously that a boundary was violated, and became a necessary and appropriate response towards the one who has done the violating. - Wow you chelas sure do not have any idea about emotions and what their uses are for do you?

You call it "your truth", and yet, even psychologists recognize that holding onto hate and anger is an unhealthy thing to do. And this is to say nothing about what it is doing to you spiritually. This is what I was getting at about spiritual maturity. A human being goes through phases. First it's just about survival. Then it's about trying to act like a human being, treating everyone fairly and equally, trying to do what's right. Then you eventually hit a spiritual phase where you truly see everyone as being part of the same spirit--you begin to love everyone.

What you're doing is just trying to separate yourself from that. You want to see some people as bad, as if you need something to attack. You don't seem to realize that you're being tricked into giving your attention to something negative. Here's another way of looking at it: if you think anyone is your enemy, you've already left spirituality and entered a state of consciousness that involves separation.

Most kids in school think that if someone throws a punch at you, you should punch them back. Only the truly spiritual among us would be able to love someone that they thought wronged them. That's what I'm trying to get through to you. I'm a chela, yes, but I'm not kissing Gary's robe or anything. Am I "parroting" MP just because I happen to agree with the teachings? I followed the instructions in the MP books to the letter, day after day, and soon I started experiencing things I'd never experienced in my life before. It's a very real phenomenon that I find hard to describe, including a Sound that's not like anything I've ever heard out in the physical world. It's like a massive wave of sound, that fills one's being and overwhelms you.

In my outer life, I've found a calm and peace that I'd not had before. I find that I don't want to seek revenge against people, and I begin to understand what drives people to do the nasty things they do. It's because they're hurting inside and don't know any better; I can't really hold them accountable in that way because they have no idea what they are doing. More importantly, I've found the wisdom to forgive myself for mistakes I've made in my own life and learn from them as the lessons they are.

If you want to keep focusing on masterpath to fuel your anger and hate, you have every right to do so. I'm not trying to shut you up or curtail your right to free speech. Say whatever you like. I'm trying to show you that you're only hurting yourself with your attitudes, but it doesn't seem like you're able to hear me. All I can do is wish you the best and hope that you find what you're looking for.

 

[Vichar]

I'm into a lot of new age woo but even I can tell this is nothing but a scam from miles away.

"Not ready for the material" ? Please, if it was really the truth you would just be able to say it. Sounds like scientologies pyramid scheme reason for not releasing its material "you have to be made ready" what a bunch of bullocks.

What does it matter? I can say the truth until I'm blue in the face and unless a person is ready to hear it, they won't recognize it.

Case in point. I told the above person that holding onto hate and anger is not spiritual. Will this be recognized as the spiritual truth? I rather doubt it.

I also believe that the truth is not the truth unless it's spoken in love. Lawyers manipulate the "truth" all the time, using "true" words to prove something that's false to the jury. People twist words to manipulate. "Factual" truth and spiritual truth just aren't the same thing. Only a spiritually mature individual even cares about spiritual truth. Even the greenest spiritual seeker, if they are sincere, suspects that physical world is an illusion. Not that it isn't real, but it's not what we perceive it to be. That's why we get mad about car accidents, obnoxious bosses, and other outer world hassles. We've bought into the illusion and completely disregard the lessons in life. It's pretty much the same thing as sleeping in class or skipping class altogther. Only sincere students that pay attention to class (life lessons) will "get it".

So I can say things like, "everyone is part of the same spirit." But people can just parrot those words without really understanding them, as they continue to say nasty things about other people, plot revenge, and basically focus their attention on anything and everything other than God and Spirit.

So tell me again that everyone is ready to hear the spiritual truth. Most of the world seems to be chasing after material wealth, fame, or attachment of one kind or another. Maybe they want to write the next big novel or invent the next great tech gadget. The spiritual people have seen it all, done it all, and have found these paltry trinkets wanting. They aren't fulfilling to spiritual people. These people are the ones that want to learn more about God, and are willing to hear something that goes against their upbringing. You want to talk about brainwashing? The stuff you learn from society is the best example of brainwashing you'll ever find. All high school (for example) teaches you is that there are bullies and catty people in the world, and they are as common as dirt.

Still think that everyone is ready to hear the truth? Here's some truth for you, if you think you are ready to hear it. If you put your attention on something, it gets larger in your life. So if you focus your attention on how people have wronged you, you just invite more of that into your life. Instead, consider focusing your attention inwards. What the spiritual seeker is really looking for is inside. Does the masterpath have a monopoly on spiritual truth? Of course not, and anyone that tries to tell you that Gary said that didn't understand him or is just flat out lying. The true path is inside everyone, and all Gary does is help you filter out the lies that are a product of a lifetime's worth of indoctrination. He's a guide, nothing more. Gary says all the time, in every talk practically, that's he's not the true master. The true master is the inner master, and Gary just wants to introduce you to that inner master. But the ex-chelas attacking me in this thread just conveniently ignore that point. It's like they heard some of the words, but weren't paying any attention to what they were really being taught.

Truth is inside. Put your attention inside. Embrace an attitude of serenity and desire for God. Be willing to give up tight-fisted attachments to lower desires, like anger, hatred, prejudice, whatever else you're in to. All spiritual attainment comes through concentration. That is the truth.

 

[end_of_faith]

....Let's address the plagiarism accusations. People seem to think that they can own an idea ("intellectual property") and we have laws against that. Gary is teaching the eternal truths. If he copies texts that he found to resonate with him, what is a student to think? You can think, he was copying down teachings so I can study from something, or you can think, wow, this guy is trying to pass off another person's work as his own. Which is the truth? The truth is very easy to see for someone who is simply interested in furthering their own spiritual journey. The idea that you can own an idea is only for people who are clinging to material wealth, or are still laboring under the illusion that the mind can come up with something original on its own (without spirit). The great works that speak to us come from a wellspring of inner truth that no one owns but is rather the spiritual birthright of everyone.

I find it laughable people are quibbling over who owned those written words. All this demonstrates is that those people are still looking at the letter of things and not the spirit of things....

Perhaps you should rethink your expression regarding "intellectual property." You state that "people seem to think they can own an idea [IT] and we have laws against that." We have laws "for" intellectual property not against it.

I find your argument regarding plagiarism laughable. I just read about a chef that was fired from a network show for plagiarizing a recipe - the chef changed the measurements of a few key ingredients which is pretty much what your master did in his, as you put it: "copies texts that he found to resonate with him."

It seems the ethical standards for a chef are higher and more stringent than for a man claiming to be a Saint.

No one is quibbling over who owns the written words. We are stating that your master is a plagiarist, meaning he is incapable of writing from his own "realization" hence his "realization of inner truth" is at best seriously dubious and questionable.

Additionally, I find the hypocrisy of your pro-plagiarism argument to be very much in line with your master's path. You defend the plagiarism with pseudo-spiritual rationalizations and yet, the MP claimed "copyright infringement" when a MP seeker video was posted on youtube.

So, it appears (to me) that the conclusion of your reasoning is copyright infringement law is "spiritual" when MP is protecting it's "intellectual property." But when questions arise about the plagiarism of MP writings it is defined as an illusion of the mind by those who don't understand the "wellspring of eternal truth that no one owns but is the spiritual birthright of everyone."

As far as the rationale of: "The idea that you can own an idea is only for people clinging to material wealth"...well, your master has become a very wealthy man selling the wares of other authors work. So, I guess you should apply your projection of "truth" to the one you call "guru."

 

[end_of_faith]

I'll give you a quote from that city-data thread to illustrate the sort of attitude a reader can look forward to while reading it:

Put simply, your attitude towards me is just as inappropriate as the above quoted chela's words are towards Allan from that other thread. It's mean-spirited, and not even close to coming from a spiritual source. I don't expect you to understand, given your reaction to my comment about the truth being the truth only if it's spoken in love.

152 pages and that's the quote you chose. Yes, that was an undeniable moment of inspiration in articulating exactly what I experienced.

Yet, you speak of words written in 2006 in the present tense so they must be alive for you right now. You also refer to the post as "chela's words"....I am not a student or "chela" of MP or Gary Olsen.

Please do not presume to know the source from where those words came. You don't know. It wasn't "mean-spirited" but I also don't expect you to understand.

But hey, thanks for sharing the post. I hadn't read it since 2006 so it was kinda interesting experience. I stand by it. The only thing I would change is calling Allan a moron.

I thought about drudging up some of the more colorful posts by Allan, like the one where he told a former MP student to go crawl back under the rock he came from...but I don't know....re-entering the mental/psychic labyrinth of what love & truth is according to your master and his path has long since died for me. In its place is something authentic, real, and lasting.

 

[Vichar]

Perhaps you should rethink your expression regarding "intellectual property." You state that "people seem to think they can own an idea [IT] and we have laws against that." We have laws "for" intellectual property not against it.

I find your argument regarding plagiarism laughable. I just read about a chef that was fired from a network show for plagiarizing a recipe - the chef changed the measurements of a few key ingredients which is pretty much what your master did in his, as you put it: "copies texts that he found to resonate with him."

It seems the ethical standards for a chef are higher and more stringent than for a man claiming to be a Saint.

No one is quibbling over who owns the written words. We are stating that your master is a plagiarist, meaning he is incapable of writing from his own "realization" hence his "realization of inner truth" is at best seriously dubious and questionable.

Additionally, I find the hypocrisy of your pro-plagiarism argument to be very much in line with your master's path. You defend the plagiarism with pseudo-spiritual rationalizations and yet, the MP claimed "copyright infringement" when a MP seeker video was posted on youtube.

So, it appears (to me) that the conclusion of your reasoning is copyright infringement law is "spiritual" when MP is protecting it's "intellectual property." But when questions arise about the plagiarism of MP writings it is defined as an illusion of the mind by those who don't understand the "wellspring of eternal truth that no one owns but is the spiritual birthright of everyone."

As far as the rationale of: "The idea that you can own an idea is only for people clinging to material wealth"...well, your master has become a very wealthy man selling the wares of other authors work. So, I guess you should apply your projection of "truth" to the one you call "guru."

After all the discussion since that post, and all you focus on is the plagiarism. You are really hung up on it. You don't understand that the lower worlds are a mental construct, merely an illusion, and that there aren't any original ideas in the illusion. But I can predict that you won't understand that statement, so there's no point I suppose for me to go further in that direction. At any rate, Gary has since understood the law and corrected the works accordingly. He probably didn't realize he was doing anything wrong, and when it was pointed out to him he corrected it. But you expect more, for some reason. Your idea of perfection is a human ideal. Perfect action, by your standards. What if Gary is just a human being like the rest of us, that makes human mistakes. I don't really care about his human mistakes--for example, he makes grammatical errors in speaking all the time. What I care about is the effectiveness of his teachings in my consciousness. And the effects for me are profound.

Also, you seem convinced that Gary has become a "very wealthy man". I don't see how you can say that, given his salary a while back was about 70,000 / year. We've already discussed this, but you're obviously still stuck on the point. Just about all my co-workers easily make that or more every year, yet I wouldn't consider any of them wealthy. They went to college, studied hard, and got jobs that require specialized knowledge in engineering. It's always the same points that you make, and they are all outer, temporal points. Why don't you ever talk about spirituality in this thread, end_of_faith? Why don't you ever make positive statements? The path has a lot of real value for a lot of people. I would say that you lacked the discipline to get results, but that's probably not even true. What's more likely and amazing to me is that you've probably had lots of spiritual experiences on the path, but now that you're off of it you probably have rationalized that these experiences had nothing to do with Gary.

Oh, and it's funny how you didn't address my point that Gary is always telling his chelas that he's not the true master. He just wants to introduce us to the real master, inside. Conveniently ignored it, just like you conveniently ignore anything that doesn't directly support your crusade to discredit him.

Still, it's always the same points with you. Money and plagiarism. Even children know that money can't buy your way into heaven. So why do you keep bringing it up? You don't want to concede that it takes money to print works and run seminars. I'd like to hear your suggestion for how to make these things happen without money. Should he wave his hand and the works just print themselves? Should he give talks out in the middle of the desert to reduce costs? What are you proposing, really?

Whether he's wealthy or not, what does it matter to me? Are wealthy people somehow less spiritual than poor ones? What I care about is what is happening in my consciousness as the result of doing the spiritual exercises. I've said this many times. It's more than worth what I'm putting into it, both the money and the effort. Nothing in my life has had a greater return on investment than my efforts on the path, certainly not my cell phone bill which costs more per month. Your statement about chelas dying penniless is obvious rhetoric. Some chelas are penniless because they either refuse to work or cannot find jobs, which is a karmic determination. Neither of which is Gary's fault.

I've already mentioned how conservative the masterpath office is. My friend that volunteers there has observed chelas being careful to retain envelopes after making a mistake with the postage. A single envelope! I've been as patient as I possibly can throughout this thread, but I'm starting to think it's a poor idea not to address your fallacies in logic or your blatant speculations without any actual evidence cited. Everything I observe first hand is at such odds with your claims, I can only conclude that you there's nothing you won't stoop to saying if you think it stands a chance of discrediting Gary.

The two of you have shown me that you are willing to exaggerate and spread rumors without citing actual evidence. You pick and choose what you want to see and hear, and simply ignore anything that doesn't support the reality you don't want to accept. I volunteer at the seminars, I see and speak with the other chelas, and yes, I have some degree of contact with Gary and some of his staff. They give off loving vibrations while here in this thread, you and still-kicking give off hateful, angry vibrations. You deploy as your rhetorical tools sarcasm and disdain. I just quoted you above spewing vitrol at allan at city-data, who was merely stating his fairly neutral opinion about the path (he was at the time, by his claim, still checking out the path but liked what he saw). You replied to him with incredible rudeness and insensitivity, completely out of control and attacking him directly even though he was not really affiliated with the path. But you don't care about that, do you? Like still-kicking, you have to attack us because you have to quickly squash any talk that contradicts what you think you know about Gary or his chelas. Still-kicking claims I'm trying to quash his freedom of speech. But the truth is, with every hateful, angry word, he merely confirms what I'm saying. Why would I want him to stop talking, if he's making my argument for me? Neither of you are credible--your words are clearly colored by your anger over feeling that you've been tricked by Gary.

So many years later, are still holding onto bitterness. When will you see that I'm not against you? When will you see that you're the only one standing between you and spirit? Finally, do you really think that people can't sense the relative vibrations in our posts? I could type "Mary had a little lamb" and it wouldn't matter. It's clear I have no hidden agenda because I'm not receiving any money from the path. Not a single cent. Why would I bother to type here? I get a lot out of it, because in channeling I benefit directly from spirit. But it's also for for you. And anyone that is interested in finding spirit within themselves will instantly be able to tell the difference between your motivation (bitter resentment) and mine (desire to help). To be quite aboveboard, if our discussion even qualifies as an argument, I have no interest in winning it. If there's even a ridiculously long shot that something I say has meaning for you many years from now, it would have been worthwhile to put up with your misguided attempts to discredit Gary, who has in my opinion done a great deal to help a great many people.

 

[Vichar]

152 pages and that's the quote you chose. Yes, that was an undeniable moment of inspiration in articulating exactly what I experienced.

Yet, you speak of words written in 2006 in the present tense so they must be alive for you right now. You also refer to the post as "chela's words"....I am not a student or "chela" of MP or Gary Olsen.

Please do not presume to know the source from where those words came. You don't know. It wasn't "mean-spirited" but I also don't expect you to understand.

But hey, thanks for sharing the post. I hadn't read it since 2006 so it was kinda interesting experience. I stand by it. The only thing I would change is calling Allan a moron.

I thought about drudging up some of the more colorful posts by Allan, like the one where he told a former MP student to go crawl back under the rock he came from...but I don't know....re-entering the mental/psychic labyrinth of what love & truth is according to your master and his path has long since died for me. In its place is something authentic, real, and lasting.

I could have chosen any of a number of other posts in that thread and it would have shown the same thing. You attacked him as a person, and not his ideas.

Allan did say what you said, but the vast majority of his posts were fairly neutral. In particular, he gave a very good list of what to look for in a true master.

In the interests of fairness, I'll repost Allan's exact words preceding your post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Rhodes
Perpetual misuse by the ignorant does not change the meaning.
We'll I disagree, Im sure you wont like this, but sheit happens, things change.
Words take on new meaning, loose old one, all the time.

So while I understand your desire to conserve the word, or you desire to try and make me look silly, which ever is highest in you, I also disagree with your premise.

In my technical life I work with meta-data - data about data. I thought of metaphysics as sorta physics about physics

But lets see if your claim that meta physics must be about physics holds up.

Which dictionary, source materials shall we use?

Quote:
Metaphysics investigates principles of reality transcending those of any particular science. - wikipedia
investigates
reality
transcending
physics

Quote:
The prefix meta- ("beyond") was attached to the chapters in Aristotle's work that physically followed after the chapters on "physics", in posthumously edited collections. Aristotle himself did not call these works Metaphysics.
Oh My God!! The word was a physical description of chapters in a book, it was used for those thoughts that came physically in book after, beyon, the chapters on physics.

How frigged awesome. I didnt know that. But unfortunetly it doesnt make your case, these were definitely thoughts/philosophy in addition to, outside of, physics.

Quote:
Before the development of modern science, scientific questions were addressed as a part of metaphysics known as "natural philosophy"; the term "science" itself meant "knowledge" of epistemological origin. The scientific method, however, made natural philosophy an empirical and experimental activity unlike the rest of philosophy, and by the end of the eighteenth century it had begun to be called "science" in order to distinguish it from philosophy. Thereafter, metaphysics became the philosophical enquiry of a non-empirical character into the nature of existence. Thus the original situation of metaphysics being integral with (Aristotelian) physics and science, has, in the West, become reversed so that scientists often consider metaphysics antithetical to the empirical sciences.
Ok, the bolding is mine, but this wikipedia entry seems to disagree with your, that meta-physics, at least in the west, is not just about physics, but actually beyond physics.

Dont you think?
Are you from a Eastern, non-Western country/schooling? Perhaps that can explain the difference - an I am not the ignorant **** you make me out to be



Anyway, the Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has an interesting article as well

Metaphysics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Quote:
Ancient and Medieval philosophers might have said that metaphysics was, like chemistry or astrology, to be defined by its subject matter: metaphysics was the “science” that studied “being as such” or “the first causes of things” or “things that do not change.” It is no longer possible to define metaphysics that way....
So what can I say, every place I look your wrong and I'm right!

ok, that was over the top, but the sources don't seem to support your rigid definition, apparently the words meaning has already been corrupted and its hard thing to define.

Ok, so given this might be cultural differences, given that crediable sources find the word hard to define, does that still mean I am a new age idiot because I use it the way I do?

thanks for having me think about this

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/reli...er-path-anybody-familiar-9.html#ixzz1mdbgm7F5

I'm actually understating the case a bit. You can see he's responding to other direct attacks. Meanwhile, you congratulate others for making those same direct attacks on him. The real irony is that you accuse him of "lambasting" everyone else in the forum. Classic case of projection. You and others in the thread are the ones flinging insults.

You can suggest to Still-Kicking that if he wants to cite another thread as a reference, it better be a credible source. I only quoted from that thread because it's full of the same stuff that's in this thread: Angry, unsubstantiated claims. Still waiting on some hard evidence. But wait, you don't think the burden of proof is on you, just like Still Kicking, right? Because if you say it, and it paints Gary in a negative light, it must be true? Still Kicking, your argument is circular. You say that it's not slander because clearly, what you're saying is true. Once again, because you say it, it's true right? You can say whatever nasty things you want to about someone, without offering any concrete proof? I'm sorry, it wouldn't fly in any court of law, which you two seem quite caught up on. To say nothing about the spiritual implications. I'll repeat yet again. It's spiritually wrong to denigrate others, attempt to make them feel badly, or say things that aren't true.

 

[no-body]

What does it matter? I can say the truth until I'm blue in the face and unless a person is ready to hear it, they won't recognize it.

...

Truth is inside. Put your attention inside. Embrace an attitude of serenity and desire for God. Be willing to give up tight-fisted attachments to lower desires, like anger, hatred, prejudice, whatever else you're in to. All spiritual attainment comes through concentration. That is the truth.

I can literally find these same teachings by picking up any thousands of work in the philosopher/spirituality section of the library or even look it up online for free.

By "gurus" and teachers who have never felt the need to start movements or groups in their name because they realize what an ego game that is, yet they where still able to make money and prosper with their teachings.

 

[Vichar]

I can literally find these same teachings by picking up any thousands of work in the philosopher/spirituality section of the library or even look it up online for free.

By "gurus" and teachers who have never felt the need to start movements or groups in their name because they realize what an ego game that is, yet they where still able to make money and prosper with their teachings.

Actually, I find this to be a good sign. Truth is universal. At no point does Gary say he's got a monopoly on it. He cites past masters and acknowledges them. The value of a true outer master is that he provides a focus for the attention. People can sit around and contemplate their whole lives and never experience more than flashes of light. Perhaps you agree that whatever you put your attention on, you move towards. Gary provides a focus. Once a student reaches that point (meeting with inner master) the outer master has served his purpose and there's no more need for him.

I'm think Gary started masterpath so that he could operate in a non-profit manner. It's not an ego thing--he cautions against worshipping him as a man. He only asks for respect as a teacher--he repeats this at every seminar now. Masterpath is a non-profit organization. You can look it up. Yes, and here comes the tax-free comments again. Yes, a non-profit is tax free... because there are no profits to tax. You have a big problem with someone charging you for books, but even the books in the library are not "free". You pay taxes for municipal services like public libraries. Students receive weekly discourses in the mail. I wonder why people would want to receive such things for free--doesn't it cost money to pay people to print copies, stuff envelopes, and send them out?

I want to make abundantly clear (again), that I am not trying to convince anyone to be on the masterpath! I want everyone to find the teaching that appeals to them most. That's what will have the most value. If you feel that going to a library and letting the books there be your teacher, please do so! However, to just say Gary is out to cheat people of their money is completely false. His teachings not only work for me, but for thousands of people. Yes, I know that the very next response to this is that we are all deluded. 46 pages of this thread have made it abundantly clear that some people think Gary is a "fraud". A fraud is someone that offers something to you in exchange for something else, but the thing they offer you turns out to not be real or of any value. The teachings have immense value for me, because nothing else I've ever read or done or attempted has given me the results I'm experiencing.

So, if I am experiencing great unfoldment in consciousness, Gary is not a fraud for me. He's legit for the vast majority of his students, no matter what a very small minority believes. I haven't read more than a handful of distinct posters in this thread claiming to be ex-chelas. We've already discussed how not everyone is ready for the path, and that sparked a whole other round of indignation.

Forget masterpath for a moment. Look around you. The vast majority of the people I see don't even really want God. They want a job that pays more, a bigger house. They want an ideal mate (whatever that means to them), maybe children, attention from others, people to tell them they are great. They don't really want spirit or God. So that's what's meant by being ready.

 

[Nakosis]

Actually, I find this to be a good sign. Truth is universal. At no point does Gary say he's got a monopoly on it. He cites past masters and acknowledges them. The value of a true outer master is that he provides a focus for the attention. People can sit around and contemplate their whole lives and never experience more than flashes of light. Perhaps you agree that whatever you put your attention on, you move towards. Gary provides a focus. Once a student reaches that point (meeting with inner master) the outer master has served his purpose and there's no more need for him.

What is meant by the path of sound?

 

[Vichar]

What is meant by the path of sound?

Hi Nakosis. This is a great question. All of creation springs forth from the nameless creator as a stream of spirit. It's not a stream of physical water like a river is a stream; I imagine it as a wave moving outwards in all directions, although that is not quite accurate either.

Creation is divided into planes. As human beings, we are most familiar with the physical plane. Above that plane there is an astral (emotional) plane, a mental plane, and a causal plane. These comprise the lower division, or the world of energy, matter, space, and time. There are other planes, and once again I'm at a loss to explain what a plane actually is. My best attempt is an analogy with matter, which has phases like solid, liquid, gas. The phases of matter are distinguished by rapidity of vibration, or the frequency of vibration. Something melts because of increased thermodynamic energy makes the molecules vibrate faster (more frequently). Planes are a little like that, in that they are superimposed on each other but composed of finer degrees of vibration as you go "up" in frequency. Keep in mind that I'm just a student, so my explanations must necessarily come from my limited understanding. Please be patient with me while I try to put this in words. As a human being we're composed of parts. We have a body (physical), emotions (astral), thoughts (mental), and spirit (spiritual). The goal of spirituality is to (re-)discover the spiritual self and reunite it with the overall spirit (audible life stream, or "path of sound").

The sound is a manifestation of spirit, as I said earlier. Physical sound, what we are used to, is a vibration of the molecules around us. Our ear can pick up the movement of air molecules, and that's what we experience as sound. The sound referred to in the light and sound teachings is not a physical sound. It's a direct manifestation of the spirit itself, the same stuff our soul is made from (and will return to). So I think of the path of sound as a stream of spirit that descends through the planes until it reaches the astral plane but no further. To return to spirit (and god), one must focus one's attention (concentrate the attention) until one reaches this stream of sound, whereupon the sound, moving back upward through the planes, lifts your consciousness along with it, much like a leaf in a stream of water.

That's the best I can do in a short space. I realize it's not a very accurate explanation--it's much clearer when one starts experiencing the sound. I feel like I'm trying to describe the taste of chocolate but I can't simply just give you a piece for you to taste yourself. Let's say that the sound is the spiritual essence of things (for now).