How would you know. You clearly know nothing about Hebrew.
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Mathew takes Isaiah Chapter 7 way out of context
- Thread starter CG Didymus
- Start date
sincerly
Well-Known Member
You simply haven't a clue ...
I haven't rejected the Messiah who Daniel said would come 2000 years ago. And Isaiah said the people would reject HIM.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
AH! But, Others do know Hebrew and are truthful in the interpretation.
Jay, what is sad/unbelievable is that you support one who claims openly to hold the Creator GOD that you hold dear as a myth.
And that no female (maid, damsel) can be considered a virgin even when the context considers a rendering of that state true. Deut.22:15-23, gives the harsh rewards for sexual deceit.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly
Your twisting of the Hebrew ...
An apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
There are many sources of knowledge for all understandings and knowledge.
Your twisting of the Hebrew ...
An apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
There are many sources of knowledge for all understandings and knowledge.
gnostic
The Lost One
sincerly said:
Is heaven "land"?
Is that what heaven is?
Genesis with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and with the other books of Moses (Exodus, Numbers, etc) and the Book of Joshua, all indicated that the Promised Land was physical territory, not a spiritual abode called heaven. This Promised Land was Canaan, a land that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were promised as part of God's covenant, land that were promised to their descendants.
The promised land had nothing to do with heaven.
Show me that heaven were promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in Genesis? Show me in Exodus or other related books that an afterlife in heaven was promised to their descendants?
I would like to see how you would twist the books of Torah or Pentateuch. I am quite sure I would find quite entertaining.
CMike
Well-Known Member
No he didn't.
The messiah will be very popluar. He will be the uniform king of Israel.
He will lead to all nations worshipping one G-D and bring all the jews to Israel.
That is a far cry from being "rejected".
Exekiel 37
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Again: you know nothing, nothing, about Hebrew and have zero basis for venturing a guess, much less rendering a judgment, about what a particular verse says or means. For you to suggest otherwise is either delusional or irresponsible.
CMike
Well-Known Member
Can you write this in a coherent manner please?
sincerly
Well-Known Member
sincerly said:
Gnostic, "Our Father which art in heaven" is only the brief(first 1000 years of eternity) stopping place before inhabiting the earth made new----permanently.
Hi Gnostic, The Scriptural narrative which began with Genesis:1 continues to Revelation 22:21 The Life of Adam and Eve(mankind) was shortened temporarily by disobedience. They were created to have eternal life upon this planet--we call earth. This planet earth, will eventually have a renewal and so will those who have made the proper preparations---all as has been prophesied within the pages of those books.
Yes, Abraham and his descendants were promised land in a strategic location for the Giving of HIS message to all the world who would listen and obey.
However, Abraham, et al., as Job, all knew that after death and the Resurrection that a "better land" would be theirs.(Ours)
I'm sorry that you find it just a myth.---But that's your choice.
gnostic
The Lost One
sincerly said:
No, but you don't seem understand the concept of the Hebrew languages.
Is Hebrew your primary language or second language? Can you speak, read and write Hebrew fluently?
If not, are you professional philologist, expert in the Hebrew written language?
Do you really know the written and oral Hebrew language better than Jayhawker Soule, Levite, poisonshady313 or CMike?
You seemed to think you know Hebrew scriptures better than the Jews here.
Have you read the Masoretic Text, as written in the original text?
sincerly said:
Once again, you're splitting hairs, sincerly.
Most of the transliterations for this verse that I've seen, including Isaiah 7:14, used the transliterate harah, not hareh.
Isaiah 7:14 said:
And harah has been used in Genesis 16:11, Exodus 21:22 and Jeremiah 31:8, in which they all used the transliterations harah, and has been translated "with child", in KJV, except in Isaiah 7:14.
As far as I can see, the harah in Isaiah 7:14 is not different to that of Genesis 16:11, Exodus 21:22 and Jeremiah 31:8.
And seeing how similar Isaiah 7:14 to Genesis 16:11, I would have to say that KJV translation to Isaiah 7:14 to be incorrect. Isaiah's harah is no different from Genesis' harah.
But as I have told you repeatedly, you have to read 7:14 with 15, 16 & 17, to get the full context of the sign. And 7:14 also have to be read with chapter 7 in its entirety, to get the full picture (or full context) of what the sign is about.
All you have done, is either distorted all the verses in Isaiah 7 or ignored the large part of Isaiah 7.
Isaiah 7:15-17 is what connect the event in 7:1 to the Immanuel in 7:14.
You keep saying that Ahaz is bad or corrupted so the sign is not to Ahaz but to the House of David, but that still doesn't discount that Isaiah was directly addressing God's message or sign to Ahaz, who is of the David's lineage.
The real sign is about the child (Immanuel) who reached certain age (to eat honey and curds, but before he know how to choose right from wrong, hence 7:15-16, cf with 8:3-4), when hostilities between the alliance of Israel and Aram and Judah cease, because of the King of Assyria would come deport the people of these Two Kings (7:16-17) and plunder their wealth (8:4).
It make sense that the child Immanuel has to be contemporary to Isaiah and Ahaz, otherwise the sign (7:14-17) cannot be fulfilled.
sincerly said:
That's utter bull manure!
Christians have spent 3 centuries debating over which books to include in . Revelation nearly didn't make to list of canonical work.
And before Jesus was even born, when they translated the Hebrew scriptures into Greek (the Septuagint bible or what you would call the Old Testament Bible), it included 10 extra works, the deuterocanonical books or the OT Apocrypha.
If you truly accept Matthew's version (Matthew 1:23) of Isaiah 7:14, then basically the deuterocanonical books should be accepted as part of your bible, since Matthew's quote is based on the Greek translation, not that book of the original language.
sincerly said:
Once again, you have distorted your bible.
Nothing in Genesis 2 & 3 say that Adam and Eve have had "eternal life". They never had eternal life, so they couldn't have lost eternal life. The only way they could have eternal life, if they ate the fruit from the Tree of Life. And they didn't eat from that Tree.
And because they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of good and bad, they were barred from eating the fruit of Tree of Life, by being driven out of the Garden of Eden.
Another thing is that God stated that they should die if they ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. When they did eat the forbidden fruit in Genesis 3, they didn't die.
Genesis 2:17 said:
"for in the day", mean that they would die on that very same day.
Most Christians would have try to distort Genesis 2:17 by saying that did die that day, but a spiritual death, not a physical death.
But that's total malarkey, or splitting hairs.
Nothing in Genesis 1 to 3 say that were created with spiritual bodies. The only spirit in that book was God, not his creation. And nothing in Genesis 1 to 3, say anything about afterlife.
Probably not. :no:
gnostic
The Lost One
My point to sincerly is that Adam & Eve never had eternal life in the first place (because they never ate from the Tree of Life), nor did they on that day for eating the wrong and prohibited fruit.Jayhawker Soule said:
Had they not eat the forbidden fruits and had they had still not eaten from the tree of life too, they may have been allowed to stay in the garden, and live their long life from toiling for food, a life without suffering, but they still would die. They just would have die without pain, suffering and toil. This only a possibility if they did eat the fruits from both Trees.
Eating the wrong fruits changed all that. Adam & Eve may not have die that day, they would have to toil for food, women would have to suffer during childbirth, and they would all suffer till the they die.
I think the story of the Garden of Eden, is simply allegory with meanings and many messages; an explanation to why things happen.
Most people would say it is allegory of free will, and how disobeying god have consequences or punishments. But I think it has many more meanings.
It is allegory to explain why people die. It is allegory to explain why woman suffer pains when trying to give birth. To explain why people have to look for food and toil for food (like farming, hunting or gathering). To explain why there is no easy life.
And Adam and Eve didn't lose eternal life, they were barred from having eternal life. It was not so much a choice between mortality or immortality, but between a life with suffering and a life without suffering.
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gnostic
The Lost One
muffled said:
That's ridiculous.
Isaiah was addressing Ahaz with the sign, and he was of the house of David.
Let look at your quote again.
muffled on Isaiah 7:13-14 said:
Noticed all the bold and red words that I've highlighted - "ye" and "you". That's "ye" and "you" is Ahaz. Who else could it be?
Not only did Ahaz refuse to ask for a sign, the sign was given to regardless of whether Ahaz want it or not.
And Isaiah 7:13 isn't the only time that Isaiah 7 had addressed Ahaz as the "house of David":
Isaiah 7:2 said:
There were no other king from the house of David, when Aram became ally to Ephraim (Israel).
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
It amazes me why this story has to be the only true story about how all life and creation began. Why are all other creation stories myth, but this one is God's Word? But now to get back to Matthew, if Isaiah was a prophet and what he said was God's Word, why did Matthew have to change it? Why didn't God tell Isaiah to make things perfectly clear? And no Sincerly, things are not perfectly clear. One verse out of context doesn't make a prophesy. I see nothing but honesty coming from Gnostic and the Jewish posters. Christians have forced their way into the Jewish Bible, added on their portion of "God's Word" and made a new and different religion. Which is fine. Others have done the same thing to Jesus and Christianity. So how are we going to arrive at the truth? By going back to the start and seeing what Isaiah said in the first place?
Even that doesn't work. Everybody can and does twist the Scriptures to say and mean whatever they want. Other people with their religions have added on to the Bible. They say all of the Bible is true, but since their Scriptures are newer, they are better, their prophet interpreted the old Scriptures the "true" way. And in some ways, that's good, because it has brought other people into a religion that has helped them. In a lot of ways it's terrible, because then we have another religion that thinks it's the only one right and starts fighting with the old ones. Why? Because the old ones say the new ones took the Scriptures out of context.
Gnostic you're inspirational. Sincerly, you're fine with your version of Christianity, but it's sad that your religion teaches that all that don't believe are going to hell. Which maybe true, but it might not. Because that is yet another thing that the Hebrew Bible didn't teach. So where did it come from? Where did God/men being born of virgins come from? That's what is scary. Christianity has more in common with Pagan religions than Judaism.
Not all opinions are created equal, but informed opinions are better than most and your understanding of the plain meaning of the text strikes me as woefully uninformed.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly
Matt.16:15-17, "He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. "
The group was asked and Peter answered.
John put it this way.(6:68-69), "Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God".
Hi Gnostic, Your "I see" acknowledges that Jesus is both the promised Messiah and the son of GOD. The Scriptures attest to that prophesied event and the fulfillment of it.
The Reason for the coming of Jesus(sent by the Father)at that time was not to be "God with us", but to be the "Saviour of the world"= Jesus. To be the propitiation for each and all who would see their need for cleansing and appropriate that appointed and sanctified method given for such. (1Pet.1:18-23; 1John 2:2; 4:10)
Matt.16:15-17, "He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. "
The group was asked and Peter answered.
John put it this way.(6:68-69), "Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God".
Hi Gnostic, Your "I see" acknowledges that Jesus is both the promised Messiah and the son of GOD. The Scriptures attest to that prophesied event and the fulfillment of it.
The Reason for the coming of Jesus(sent by the Father)at that time was not to be "God with us", but to be the "Saviour of the world"= Jesus. To be the propitiation for each and all who would see their need for cleansing and appropriate that appointed and sanctified method given for such. (1Pet.1:18-23; 1John 2:2; 4:10)
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi Jay, are you beginning to see where Gnostic is no friend, but tries to tear your GOD and beliefs(and mine) from the Truths it holds.
What a petty statement. No disagreement with Gnostic lessens the fact that you are appallingly ignorant when it comes to Hebrew text and should stop pretending otherwise.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by gnostic
I think the story of the Garden of Eden, is simply allegory with meanings and many messages; an explanation to why things happen.
Most people would say it is allegory of free will, and how disobeying god have consequences or punishments. But I think it has many more meanings.
It is allegory to explain why people die. It is allegory to explain why woman suffer pains when trying to give birth. To explain why people have to look for food and toil for food (like farming, hunting or gathering). To explain why there is no easy life.
Hi CG D, What amazes me is that the scriptures are right on target. Almost 2000 years ago, Paul wrote(2Tim.4:1-4), " I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." Fables is another designation for myths.
CG D, Four words are translated into English as "Hell" . (H)Sheol=hell--31times; Grave, 31 times; Pit,3 times. (It refers to the place of the dead.)
Sheol is the equivalent to the Greek=Hades.
The Greek--Gehenna=Hell is from the valley of hinnom where all the refuse from Jerusalem along with the bodies of animals was discarded/consumed(by fire or worms).
The Greek--Tartarus=hell(used only in 2Pet.2:4)(t=and referred to the Angels who are reserved until the judgment.
ALL die and go into the grave/pit/etc.(hell) to await their resurrection.
CG D, Gnostic said initially, """"I think the story of the Garden of Eden, is simply allegory"""". Therefore, all that follows is, also, allegory. Since that is his human opinion, I can not follow because What I see is real and my senses speak for the Creator GOD of all things. That which was written concerning Creation was for the admonition of those with the understanding and belief in the Creator GOD.
So, Where does one start to understand the ways the Creator GOD has lead the Beings HE created? Not with Isa.7:14, but with Gen.1:1. Not with man's speculations of where they think man came from, in a particular area, but where GOD said they migrated from and the knowledge the carried with them from that beginning.
Since there was an adversarial creature speaking contrary to the commands of GOD from those initial days following Creation, that being and his minions will continue until the close of earth's probationary period is closed. There is scripture that attests to that being so by many scriptures.
The Scriptures declare A serpent was used by the adversary and so can human beings.
Those same Scriptures declare that persons have in the past, AS NOW, claimed to be HIS people, yet will be clinging to false gods and masters and teachings.
I think the story of the Garden of Eden, is simply allegory with meanings and many messages; an explanation to why things happen.
Most people would say it is allegory of free will, and how disobeying god have consequences or punishments. But I think it has many more meanings.
It is allegory to explain why people die. It is allegory to explain why woman suffer pains when trying to give birth. To explain why people have to look for food and toil for food (like farming, hunting or gathering). To explain why there is no easy life.
Hi CG D, What amazes me is that the scriptures are right on target. Almost 2000 years ago, Paul wrote(2Tim.4:1-4), " I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." Fables is another designation for myths.
CG D, Four words are translated into English as "Hell" . (H)Sheol=hell--31times; Grave, 31 times; Pit,3 times. (It refers to the place of the dead.)
Sheol is the equivalent to the Greek=Hades.
The Greek--Gehenna=Hell is from the valley of hinnom where all the refuse from Jerusalem along with the bodies of animals was discarded/consumed(by fire or worms).
The Greek--Tartarus=hell(used only in 2Pet.2:4)(t=and referred to the Angels who are reserved until the judgment.
ALL die and go into the grave/pit/etc.(hell) to await their resurrection.
CG D, Gnostic said initially, """"I think the story of the Garden of Eden, is simply allegory"""". Therefore, all that follows is, also, allegory. Since that is his human opinion, I can not follow because What I see is real and my senses speak for the Creator GOD of all things. That which was written concerning Creation was for the admonition of those with the understanding and belief in the Creator GOD.
So, Where does one start to understand the ways the Creator GOD has lead the Beings HE created? Not with Isa.7:14, but with Gen.1:1. Not with man's speculations of where they think man came from, in a particular area, but where GOD said they migrated from and the knowledge the carried with them from that beginning.
Since there was an adversarial creature speaking contrary to the commands of GOD from those initial days following Creation, that being and his minions will continue until the close of earth's probationary period is closed. There is scripture that attests to that being so by many scriptures.
The Scriptures declare A serpent was used by the adversary and so can human beings.
Those same Scriptures declare that persons have in the past, AS NOW, claimed to be HIS people, yet will be clinging to false gods and masters and teachings.