Mathew takes Isaiah Chapter 7 way out of context

[sincerly]

What a petty statement. No disagreement with Gnostic lessens the fact that you are appallingly ignorant when it comes to Hebrew text and should stop pretending otherwise.

Hi Jay, What is the correct Hebrew word for "Shall Conceive" (i.e.) future tense?(transliteration please
Are you implying the "almah" ==girl, maid, damsel in the Hebrew usage as seen and placed in the writings indicated having had sexual intercourse with a male. That those designations does NOT initially indicate virginity?

 

[gnostic]

CG D, Gnostic said initially, """"I think the story of the Garden of Eden, is simply allegory"""". Therefore, all that follows is, also, allegory. Since that is his human opinion, I can not follow because What I see is real and my senses speak for the Creator GOD of all things. That which was written concerning Creation was for the admonition of those with the understanding and belief in the Creator GOD.

So, Where does one start to understand the ways the Creator GOD has lead the Beings HE created? Not with Isa.7:14, but with Gen.1:1. Not with man's speculations of where they think man came from, in a particular area, but where GOD said they migrated from and the knowledge the carried with them from that beginning.

Since there was an adversarial creature speaking contrary to the commands of GOD from those initial days following Creation, that being and his minions will continue until the close of earth's probationary period is closed. There is scripture that attests to that being so by many scriptures.

The Scriptures declare A serpent was used by the adversary and so can human beings.
Those same Scriptures declare that persons have in the past, AS NOW, claimed to be HIS people, yet will be clinging to false gods and masters and teachings.

You have understanding what I had written, do you?

You seize upon my word - "allegory" - and immediately make assumption of what I believe or don't believe.

When I used the word allegory, I mean story that have special meaning, like moral to story.

You accuse me of branding biblical stories as myths, but you have no understanding what I mean by myths.

You believe in Jesus don't you?

You should know his life better than I. And I am quite sure you have better understanding about Christianity than I do. And yet, at the same time, you are ignorant in other areas, like understanding the literature in their proper context.

Since you know Jesus and his life, then you should know that Jesus was a master myth-maker or storyteller. I am not saying myth, in the bad sense, but I am quite sure you will take negative.

I don't know how much parables he taught, but did tell stories that have morals to them. Stories to teach people, to teach his disciples and apostles. A large parts of Jesus teaching are through parables.

Parables are essentially allegories. That's what they are. Myths are allegories too, but to deny parables as allegories, is to not understand Jesus teaching at all.

While it is true that I doubt the historicity of Genesis' Adam and Eve, but I do not deny or doubt it has many deep and powerful meanings. Anyone who read Genesis can see the powers of allegory.

Only stupid and ignorant person would deny there are no meaning to Genesis.

You may have deep-seated belief, but I don't think you have unbiased understanding of what you are reading. You cannot understand the difference between reading the literature as they are, and what you think or believe you've read.

That you see Jesus everywhere in the OT, from Genesis to Malachi, is really just your belief and your interpretation. I don't see why I have to conform to your biased opinion/belief.

 

[gnostic]

Hi Jay, are you beginning to see where Gnostic is no friend, but tries to tear your GOD and beliefs(and mine) from the Truths it holds.

Despite being an agnostic, my reading of the Hebrew scriptures are actually more in line with Jewish interpretation than your interpretation with Jewish interpretation.

Just as I don't see Jesus in Genesis 3:15 ("seed of woman") or Isaiah 7:15 (with regards to almah or harah), nor do any Jews here.

I am not disputing your belief that Jesus is your messiah, I just don't Jesus have to do with anything you have quoted in the Tanakh (or OT), just as many Jews here have disagreed with your interpretations about their texts.

What you don't understand that, with me, it has nothing to do with my belief or disbelief, but how I read the passages. I based my interpretation on simply reading the passage as they stand in the chapter, eg reading Isaiah 7, from verse 1 to the last verse, verse 25, to see how verse 14 is connect with the rest of chapter. I don't see how I am misunderstanding the passage when I read the whole chapter as they were meant to be read.

You, on the other hand, is basing your interpretation on belief that Jesus has to do with a single verse from Matthew's superfluous claim.

 

[gnostic]

Hi Jay, What is the correct Hebrew word for "Shall Conceive" (i.e.) future tense?(transliteration please

What?

Now, you're asking a Jew for the correct word? I'm shocked!

No seriously. I am glad you are asking him, but my doubt is, would you accept his or other Jews words?

I get the feeling you would reject what Jayhawker would say.

Jayhawker already said harah is an adjective, and "shall conceive" are verb, not adjective.

"pregnant" is an adjective, especially with the Hebrew feminine harah.

 

[Fletch]

What?

Now, you're asking a Jew for the correct word? I'm shocked!

No seriously. I am glad you are asking him, but my doubt is, would you accept his or other Jews words?

I get the feeling you would reject what Jayhawker would say.

Jayhawker already said harah is an adjective, and "shall conceive" are verb, not adjective.

"pregnant" is an adjective, especially with the Hebrew feminine harah.

How about an example from Scripture:

Jud 13:3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive(Strong's #2029) , and bear a son.

4 Now therefore beware , I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing: 5 For, lo, thou are with child(Strong's #2030), and shall bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

The supernatural being supernaturally showed up right before the egg and sperm united.

Guess which word(#2029 or #2030) is used in Isaiah 7:14?????

Fletch

PS One would think the Christians would want the girl to be pregnant, i.e. with child. Even had the verse said "this virgin shall conceive and bear a son" it would not be too superhuman an event since it happens all the time

PSS Another example of #2029 and #2030:
2 Sam 11:5 And the woman conceived(#2029) , and sent and told David, and said , I am with child(#2030).

BTW #2030 is what is used in Isaiah 7:14

 

[gnostic]

Jud 13:3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive(Strong's #2029) , and bear a son.

4 Now therefore beware , I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing: 5 For, lo, thou are with child(Strong's #2030), and shall bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

The problem with Judges 13:3-5 is its conflicting statements in this translation.

First, in verse 3 it say that the angel says that she will conceive "thou shall conceive", which means she isn't pregnant yet. Right?

But then in verse 5, this same angel says "thou art with child", hence she is already pregnant. Right?

How can she be not pregnant yet and be pregnant at the same time?

She was either one or the other, while the angel was speaking to her, but she can't be both. Both verses can't be true.

The passage you have quoted, showed inconsistencies, from one verse to the next.

Anyway, regardless of the faulty translation, you were using, the "shall conceive" has Hebrew transliteration harit (וְהָרִ֖ית, singular, feminine imperfect (or future tense) verb) in Judges 13:3, not harah (הָרָה&#1433.

 

[CG Didymus]

Since there was an adversarial creature speaking contrary to the commands of GOD from those initial days following Creation, that being and his minions will continue until the close of earth's probationary period is closed. There is scripture that attests to that being so by many scriptures.

The Scriptures declare A serpent was used by the adversary and so can human beings.
Those same Scriptures declare that persons have in the past, AS NOW, claimed to be HIS people, yet will be clinging to false gods and masters and teachings.

Why a "probationary" period? He knows his sheep. He knows who will not believe no matter how many prophets he sends. Even if he sends his own son, he knows only a few will believe. What's the point? The unbelievers are going to burn in hell for eternity? For what? Being created stupid and ignorant of the "truth"?

The Jewish Scriptures declare a crafty serpent tricked Eve. It doesn't say God's adversary took control of the snake. Heaven, the devil and hell are Christian concepts. If all you use is Jewish writings, God and His plan for His people is a lot different than what Christians say. God didn't tell the Jews to go preach and try and save the "lost." Jews still don't try and convert me. Jews still don't come knock on my door and warn me that if I don't repent I am doomed for hell. Jews don't tell me to beware the devil is trying to trick me into following some false religion. But, what's even stranger, is that for most of the Christian era, Christians didn't even preach the "Word" --the Fundamentalist version of the word. So even those early Christians didn't have the right beliefs about Jesus. They were going to confession, paying indulgences lighting candles, and saying Hail Mary's. It's sad, but fundy Christians can't appreciate and respect other people and their religious views, because they believe those other people are wrong and deceived.

So are you right and everybody else wrong? Maybe, but I'm reading the stories in the Bible. Are they what Christians told me they are? No, they've been manipulated, twisted and taken out of context, starting right from the beginning in Matthew. Out of Egypt? Ramah weeping? Called a Nazarene? The virgin birth is only one of the things taken out of context by Matthew. If believed and followed, we all know that Christianity has the power to change lives. But, so does every other religion in the world.

 

[roger1440]

How would you know. You clearly know nothing about Hebrew.

Oy vey, you guys have some chutzpah.

 

[Fletch]

The problem with Judges 13:3-5 is its conflicting statements in this translation.

First, in verse 3 it say that the angel says that she will conceive "thou shall conceive", which means she isn't pregnant yet. Right?

Hi Gnostic,
Correct, the angel said behold NOW you are barren but shall conceive(#2029).

But then in verse 5, this same angel says "thou art with child", hence she is already pregnant. Right?

Wait you missed important separation just before this. The angel said NOW (attah) don't drink alcohol etc. FOR behold(again) you are now with child. If she were not pregnant yet, the alcohol prohibition would not be needed just now.

If she and Manoah had relations the night before and God did not fix her being barren until the angel was present, the egg and sperm would have come together right there as they were speaking.

How can she be not pregnant yet and be pregnant at the same time?

She can't.

She was either one or the other, while the angel was speaking to her, but she can't be both. Both verses can't be true.

Pregnancy does not necessarily happen during intercourse, it can happen up to 24 hours later. It would not be impossible for a supernatural being to be there at the event where she went from not being pregnant to being pregnant especially since he was bringing the news.

The passage you have quoted, showed inconsistencies, from one verse to the next.

In Judges 13 we have a BEHOLD/NOW you are barren, then we have a separation with another "NOW/BEHOLD" you are pregnant. Explain why the text gives an extra and new NOW/BEHOLD if you have a problem with the new set of conditions.

Anyway, regardless of the faulty translation, you were using, the "shall conceive" has Hebrew transliteration harit (וְהָרִ֖ית, singular, feminine imperfect (or future tense) verb) in Judges 13:3, not harah (הָרָה&#1433.

Exactly what I had in v.3(#2029)verb, I only corrected the KJV in Judges 13:5 to "with child"(#2030)noun.

Any problems with Bathsheba's use of the two words? Does it not seal what the noun הָרָה֙#2030 means?

Thanks,
Fletch

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hi Jay, What is the correct Hebrew word for "Shall Conceive" (i.e.) future tense?

tahareh

Are you implying the "almah" ==girl, maid, damsel in the Hebrew usage as seen and placed in the writings indicated having had sexual intercourse with a male.

No. And if I were to say "note the pregnant girl" the word 'girl' would not indicate having had sexual intercourse with a male.

That those designations does NOT initially indicate virginity?

almah does not indicate virginity.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Since there was an adversarial creature speaking contrary to the commands of GOD from those initial days following Creation, that being and his minions will continue until the close of earth's probationary period is closed. There is scripture that attests to that being so by many scriptures.

The Scriptures declare A serpent was used by the adversary and so can human beings.
Those same Scriptures declare that persons have in the past, AS NOW, claimed to be HIS people, yet will be clinging to false gods and masters and teachings.

Why a "probationary" period? He knows his sheep. He knows who will not believe no matter how many prophets he sends. Even if he sends his own son, he knows only a few will believe. What's the point?

Hi CG D, The point is since GOD is Loving, merciful, forgiving, Gracious, and Just that HE gives each sinner(of which, we all are) a life-time to repent and submit to the Father's Will.
Yes, HE does know each of humanity and where they stand in relationship to HIM at all times. HE knows those who are HIS, but have wrong beliefs---in relationships that have an appearance of truth, but are vanity. As Rev.18:4 states, HE is calling HIS people to "come out of her my people." Those of HIS people are identified as Rev.12:17 indicated. "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Probationary time? Evil has to run its course. From that first prophecy after the fall of mankind, Gen.3:15 and the crushing of the serpent's head, all of creation has looked for the redemption of the righteous ones and restoration of the cursed earth.

Since the "Fall", as Mal.3:17 relates, "And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him."

Rev. 10:6, "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer":

The unbelievers are going to burn in hell for eternity? For what? Being created stupid and ignorant of the "truth"?

CG D, "unbelievers " will be destroyed/returned to dust/ashes not because they were created "stupid and ignorant", but because they choose to be defiant and arrogant in the face of being told/or having the Truths of the Scriptures revealed to them.

The Jewish Scriptures declare a crafty serpent tricked Eve. It doesn't say God's adversary took control of the snake. Heaven, the devil and hell are Christian concepts. If all you use is Jewish writings, God and His plan for His people is a lot different than what Christians say. God didn't tell the Jews to go preach and try and save the "lost." Jews still don't try and convert me. Jews still don't come knock on my door and warn me that if I don't repent I am doomed for hell. Jews don't tell me to beware the devil is trying to trick me into following some false religion. But, what's even stranger, is that for most of the Christian era, Christians didn't even preach the "Word" --the Fundamentalist version of the word. So even those early Christians didn't have the right beliefs about Jesus. They were going to confession, paying indulgences lighting candles, and saying Hail Mary's. It's sad, but fundy Christians can't appreciate and respect other people and their religious views, because they believe those other people are wrong and deceived.

CG D, those "Scriptures" even at Sinai were for all peoples---there was a "mixed multitude of peoples who came out of Egypt with Abraham's descendants and were at the foot of that mountain when GOD spoke, wrote on those tablets and gave to Moses instructions to give to the people. They were to be light bearers and include into their assemblies all "sojourners, gentiles," etc., who desired to have GOD as their GOD---and that as "home -born"/equal footing/standing with the LORD GOD.
God has never been a respecter of persons. Deut.10:12-17, "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward":

So are you right and everybody else wrong? Maybe, but I'm reading the stories in the Bible. Are they what Christians told me they are? No, they've been manipulated, twisted and taken out of context, starting right from the beginning in Matthew. Out of Egypt? Ramah weeping? Called a Nazarene? The virgin birth is only one of the things taken out of context by Matthew. If believed and followed, we all know that Christianity has the power to change lives. But, so does every other religion in the world.

Didn't Joseph at the Lord's command that the baby Jesus when Herod sought to kill Jesus? Yes.
Didn't the slaughter of the infants in that vicinity of Jesus's birth by Herod's troops cause "weeping"?? Yes.
When Jesus was returned from Egypt as a lad and resided in Nazareth, wasn't he called a Nazarene? Yes.
Matthew was correct in the referring to Isa.7:14 and virgin Birth of Jesus. Mary had had no human male sex and the Angel Gabriel said who would be the agent to cause her to be pregnant with Jesus. The " Messiah and Son of the living GOD" he/Matthew had acknowledged as "are sure" before the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

 

[CG Didymus]

=sincerly;3467148]Originally Posted by sincerly The point is since GOD is Loving, merciful, forgiving, Gracious, and Just that HE gives each sinner(of which, we all are) a life-time to repent and submit to the Father's Will.
Yes, HE does know each of humanity and where they stand in relationship to HIM at all times. HE knows those who are HIS...

Probationary time? Evil has to run its course.

He knows who are His people. He created them and they believe and serve him. So why the rest of the people? Why test them and allow them to suffer? Why allow so many to think they have the right religion, but they don't?

"unbelievers " will be destroyed/returned to dust/ashes not because they were created "stupid and ignorant", but because they choose to be defiant and arrogant in the face of being told/or having the Truths of the Scriptures revealed to them.

Doesn't it say somewhere that they will suffer hellfire forever? And to not want eternal life is being stupid and ignorant. Or, the way God revealed himself is misleading and vague and people are being smart and careful on making their decision to believe in him, as revealed, or not to.

...those "Scriptures" even at Sinai were for all peoples---there was a "mixed multitude of peoples who came out of Egypt with Abraham's descendants and were at the foot of that mountain when GOD spoke, wrote on those tablets and gave to Moses instructions to give to the people. They were to be light bearers and include into their assemblies all "sojourners, gentiles," etc., who desired to have GOD as their GOD---

So again, Jews don't knock on my door and beat me over the head with their Bibles. The message to Jews and from Jews is nothing like what fundy Christians say. Now the Hebrews who left Egypt weren't they in tribes based on the sons of Israel? And didn't those tribes take the land of Canaan by force with the help of God? God told them to kill everybody in Jericho didn't he? Those were people he created also. Were they really, all of them, beyond hope? Or, were the Hebrews a nomadic warrior people and believed their God would give them victory?

Didn't Joseph at the Lord's command that the baby Jesus when Herod sought to kill Jesus? Yes.
Didn't the slaughter of the infants in that vicinity of Jesus's birth by Herod's troops cause "weeping"?? Yes.
When Jesus was returned from Egypt as a lad and resided in Nazareth, wasn't he called a Nazarene? Yes.

Matthew wasn't there. How did he know? And, if he knew the story, why didn't any other gospel writer know about it and refer to it? Luke has the family going to Jerusalem and then to Nazareth and every year the family going to the temple. Where does Egypt fit in? How does Ramah weeping equal a prophesy? And, where is the prophesy about him being called a Nazarene? It's little anomalies that make the story suspicious.

Matthew was correct in the referring to Isa.7:14 and virgin Birth of Jesus.

If it was a virgin birth that Isaiah predicted and Jesus was born of a virgin then sure, Jesus is the Messiah. But there's the problem, Isaiah didn't make a prophesy about the Messiah in Isa 7:14. The age of the child is the important part of the sign. Those things predicted would come to pass by the time the boy got old enough to choose good over evil. Did Jesus ever have to do that? No, he's God, or so you say. If fitting Christianity into Judaism is this difficult, then maybe somebody is making up stories. Or, the whole Bible is religious stories and can be interpreted many ways.

 

[gnostic]

Pregnancy does not necessarily happen during intercourse, it can happen up to 24 hours later.

I am not biology major, so my knowledge on human reproduction is sketching at best. So I will take your words for it.

It would not be impossible for a supernatural being to be there at the event where she went from not being pregnant to being pregnant especially since he was bringing the news.

But here, you are speculating.

 

[sincerly]

He knows who are His people. He created them and they believe and serve him. So why the rest of the people? Why test them and allow them to suffer? Why allow so many to think they have the right religion, but they don't?

Hi CG D, GOD tries all persons in the "fires" to expose the True "metal of belief" from the "dross of error".
Any suffering is basically from the choices one makes.
One makes decisions in the choosing of a "right religion" and those based upon the Scriptures. In the "discerning", a wrong conclusion can be arrive at when one doesn't follow the "thus saith the Lord", Instead, one listens to the wrong informer as did Eve.
Therefore, as Peter said in to all "make your calling and election sure" and that by Jesus Christ's command, "search the Scriptures".
The truth is seen in those pages. Search them rather than listen to those who are "presenting" the "traditions of men and "the commandments and decrees made by men".

Doesn't it say somewhere that they will suffer hellfire forever? And to not want eternal life is being stupid and ignorant. Or, the way God revealed himself is misleading and vague and people are being smart and careful on making their decision to believe in him, as revealed, or not to.

NO. That is not correct scripturally. Mal.4:1-3 indicates the final results of the fires is "Ashes".
As long as there is "fuel" for the worms and fire, there will be worms and fire in their areas of destruction.

So again, Jews don't knock on my door and beat me over the head with their Bibles. The message to Jews and from Jews is nothing like what fundy Christians say. Now the Hebrews who left Egypt weren't they in tribes based on the sons of Israel? And didn't those tribes take the land of Canaan by force with the help of God? God told them to kill everybody in Jericho didn't he? Those were people he created also. Were they really, all of them, beyond hope? Or, were the Hebrews a nomadic warrior people and believed their God would give them victory?

CG D, as a Gentile, do you expect those Jews who rejected their Messiah and do not think that the Laws were given to any but the Jews, and their GOD is only for them, etc, that they would come knocking upon your door?
The Followers of Jesus Christ try to show one that those same Scriptures(with Blessing and cursings) are for the whole of mankind. and for the salvation of the human family----a propitiation for all who believe, repent, and surrender to the Will of the Father.
Rahab and her family were saved from the destruction of Jericho---the believed that GOD was who he said HE was and able to bring to pass that which HE Promised. One can not fight against GOD and prevail.

Matthew wasn't there. How did he know? And, if he knew the story, why didn't any other gospel writer know about it and refer to it? Luke has the family going to Jerusalem and then to Nazareth and every year the family going to the temple. Where does Egypt fit in? How does Ramah weeping equal a prophesy? And, where is the prophesy about him being called a Nazarene? It's little anomalies that make the story suspicious.

You are still refusing to believe the record of Luke and the other Gospel writers.
Luke recorded that on the last minutes of that resurrection day that Jesus showed and opened their understanding of all the Prophecies concerning HIM which were recorded from Moses and the prophets and Psalms.

If it was a virgin birth that Isaiah predicted and Jesus was born of a virgin then sure, Jesus is the Messiah. But there's the problem, Isaiah didn't make a prophesy about the Messiah in Isa 7:14. The age of the child is the important part of the sign. Those things predicted would come to pass by the time the boy got old enough to choose good over evil. Did Jesus ever have to do that? No, he's God, or so you say. If fitting Christianity into Judaism is this difficult, then maybe somebody is making up stories. Or, the whole Bible is religious stories and can be interpreted many ways.

CG D, Since GOD is GOD, the problem isn't with the scriptures which man has determined wrong, but man's misunderstanding of the Scriptures.
Yes, man can twist the Scriptures to the point of that which is wrong has been made accepted.
I certainly have no problem understanding Jesus Christ in the light of all the Scriptures from Genesis 1:1 to the last verses of Revelation 22.

However, what anyone wants to believe concerning the Bible narrative of mankind's history is their witness which is recorded in those pages which being discounted as not being so.

 

[Fletch]

Hi CG D, GOD tries all persons in the "fires" to expose the True "metal of belief" from the "dross of error".
Any suffering is basically from the choices one makes.
One makes decisions in the choosing of a "right religion" and those based upon the Scriptures. In the "discerning", a wrong conclusion can be arrive at when one doesn't follow the "thus saith the Lord", Instead, one listens to the wrong informer as did Eve.

Hi Sincerly,
Did the serpent give Eve any false information? If so, just exactly what was it?

Therefore, as Peter said in to all "make your calling and election sure" and that by Jesus Christ's command, "search the Scriptures".
The truth is seen in those pages. Search them rather than listen to those who are "presenting" the "traditions of men and "the commandments and decrees made by men".

Here is what another NT character said:

Mat 23:2 Saying , The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe , that observe and do ; but do not ye after their works: for they say , and do not.

CG D, as a Gentile, do you expect those Jews who rejected their Messiah

I thought the Jews were supernaturally made blind.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for ; but the election hath obtained it , and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written , God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see , and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

and do not think that the Laws were given to any but the Jews, and their GOD is only for them, etc, that they would come knocking upon your door?

This is a false statement that has nothing to back it up.

Here is what Jews believe:

Isaiah 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off . 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

The Followers of Jesus Christ try to show one that those same Scriptures(with Blessing and cursings) are for the whole of mankind. and for the salvation of the human family----a propitiation for all who believe, repent, and surrender to the Will of the Father.
Rahab and her family were saved from the destruction of Jericho---the believed that GOD was who he said HE was and able to bring to pass that which HE Promised. One can not fight against GOD and prevail.

You are still refusing to believe the record of Luke and the other Gospel writers.
Luke recorded that on the last minutes of that resurrection day that Jesus showed and opened their understanding of all the Prophecies concerning HIM which were recorded from Moses and the prophets and Psalms

So Romans 11 is wrong now?

CG D, Since GOD is GOD, the problem isn't with the scriptures which man has determined wrong, but man's misunderstanding of the Scriptures.
Yes, man can twist the Scriptures to the point of that which is wrong has been made accepted.
I certainly have no problem understanding Jesus Christ in the light of all the Scriptures from Genesis 1:1 to the last verses of Revelation 22.

However, what anyone wants to believe concerning the Bible narrative of mankind's history is their witness which is recorded in those pages which being discounted as not being so.

One thing I do not understand how the servant of Isaiah 53, who made his sepuchre with the wicked, is suppose to be Jesus because this NT character made his sepulchre with the good, about as opposite as one can get.

Luke 23:50 And, behold , there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:

Fletch

 

[Fletch]

I am not biology major, so my knowledge on human reproduction is sketching at best. So I will take your words for it.

Hi Gnostic,
I may have been conservative, see this quote from babymed:

Most sperm die within minutes after ejaculation inside the vagina or outside the woman's genital tract. Once sperm enter the woman's genital tract, the cervix and uterus, most die within 1-2 days, but some can survive up to 5 days and thus the longest that sperm can survive in fertile cervical fluid or the uterus is five days. Studies have shown that most pregnancies can be attributed to intercourse that takes place within the 1-2 days before ovulation and the day of ovulation, but some pregnancies can happen after intercourse that happened up to 5 days before ovulation. Sperm do not typically survive for five days, even in fertile cervical fluid. A life span of 1-2 days is much more typical for sperm, even in fertile cervical fluid- less if there is no fertile cervical fluid. - See more at:babymed.com/info/sperm-life#sthash.irjbEUq2.dpuf]Sperm]Sperm Life

But here, you are speculating.

Would it not be logical for the angel bringing the news of healing to do the healing while present? You must agree there is a time in every pregnancy where a woman goes from being not pregnant to being pregnant.

Here is what the Christian Net Bible has:

Another option is to translate, “you are already pregnant and will have a son.” The earlier reference to her being infertile (v. 3) suggests that her conception is still future, but it is possible that the earlier statement only reflects her perspective (as far as she is concerned, she is infertile). According to this interpretation, in v. 5 the angel reveals the truth to her – actually she has recently conceived and is now pregnant (see the translation in R. G. Boling, Judges [AB], 217). Usage favors this interpretation. The predicate adjective הָרָה (harah, “[be/become] pregnant&#8221 elsewhere has a past (1 Sam 4:19) or present (Gen 16:11; 38:25; 2 Sam 11:5) translation value. (The usage in Isa 7:14 is debated, but a present translation is definitely possible there.) A final, but less likely possibility, is that she miraculously conceived during the angel’s speech, sometime between his statements recorded in vv. 3 and 5.

Interesting side note the oldest Christian Greek LXX has this:
Jud 13:3And an angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her, “See, you are barren and have not borne. And you shall conceive a son. 4So then do be careful, and do not drink wine and strong drink, and do not eat anything unclean, 5for see, you are pregnant and shall bear a son. And iron shall not come upon his head, for the boy shall be a nazir of God from the belly. And he it is who shall begin to deliver Israel from the hand of Phylistiim.” 6And the woman went inside and said to her husband, saying, “A man of God came to me, and his appearance was like the appearance of an angel of God, most awe-inspiring, and I did not ask him where he came from, and he did not tell me his name. 7And he said to me, ‘See, you are pregnant and shall bear a son. And now drink no...

At worst, we can say that neither side of the issue can use Judges 13 for what the word means, we have to look at the other occurrences for the exact meaning.
Fletch

 

[gnostic]

Would it not be logical for the angel bringing the news of healing to do the healing while present? You must agree there is a time in every pregnancy where a woman goes from being not pregnant to being pregnant.

Of course, woman go from being not pregnant to pregnant.

What I think is speculating on fletch's part that the angel appearing after Manoah and wife had sex in which the angel arrived to deliver the message that she WILL become pregnant than she IS pregnant, while the angel was speaking to her.

Judges doesn't state anything about WHEN the couple had sex...to when the angel arrived to speak to them. It is speculation.

IT take 3 to 4 second, to read from verse 3 to the end of verse 5 (the angel's dialogue). I hardly think conception and pregnancy happen like that (naturally) unless there magic-hocus-pocus involved. It could only happen in religious story.

 

[gnostic]

tahareh

How is this written in Hebrew scripts?

 

[gnostic]

To sincerly:

Jayhawker has responded to your inquiry about the transliterated Hebrew word for "to conceive" or "shall conceive". He said tahareh, which I believed to be feminine (future tense) verb.

Hi Jay, What is the correct Hebrew word for "Shall Conceive" (i.e.) future tense?(transliteration please

tahareh

What do you have to say to tahareh?

 

[Fletch]

Of course, woman go from being not pregnant to pregnant.

What I think is speculating on fletch's part that the angel appearing after Manoah and wife had sex in which the angel arrived to deliver the message that she WILL become pregnant than she IS pregnant, while the angel was speaking to her.

Judges doesn't state anything about WHEN the couple had sex...to when the angel arrived to speak to them. It is speculation.

Hi Gnostic,
The text tells me that she went from not pregnant to pregnant so you can not say that I am speculating. When do you speculate that she became pregnant if not when the text states it happened?

Even with a healthy fertile human female, she could go from being not pregnant to being pregnant during even the shortest of conversations. If the woman had sex within a couple of days, but did not ovulate until you were there, it is very possible.

What makes it really possible is that the angel was there to deliver the news that her ovulation problem was going to be fixed. If God fixed it as the news was delivered, the egg could have been fertilized within a matter of seconds since the sperm would be right there.

What is harder to do, miraculously fix a barren woman or miraculously show up right when she becomes pregnant? I would think the two are equal.

IT take 3 to 4 second, to read from verse 3 to the end of verse 5 (the angel's dialogue).

You could say that of the whole story.

...I hardly think conception and pregnancy happen like that (naturally) unless there magic-hocus-pocus involved. It could only happen in religious story.

But there indeed was "magic-hocus-pocus" involved, it was an angel of God for crying out loud. You seem to have problems with a supernatural being supernaturally showing up at the right time when doing a supernatural act.

Moving on, I did not like your other post title "a alma" since you used the indefinite article "a" instead of the definite article of "the/this". But I saw inside you had it correct.

One thing most translations get wrong is the second person singular female verb "and you shall call". Look at this bold Christian translation from the Net Bible:

...and will give birth to a son. You, young woman, will name him Immanuel.

"you" is the correct translation and they added the "young woman" to make it 100% clear. This confirms the definite mother in question was present and on the scene, not some indefinite female 700 odd years in the future.

Thanks,
Fletch