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May I ask of our Muslim Friends.
- Thread starter Colabomb
- Start date
Is Islam generally Iconoclastic, or only more conservative Branches?
Does the Koran forbid the use of Images to aid in (but not recieve) worship?
Just curiousity
Hi Colabomb, I think th Islam DIR is the most suitable place for this question so all the Muslims can see it and answer it right a way.
You can post your questions in the Islam Forum in the link below:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/
nawab
Active Member
No, it doesnt we do not have a concept of a a vision of god, because anything that we can imagine is not Allah/God almighty.
Moreover, The quran cannot be included icons, because the quran is not our creation but Allahs.
Idoltry was a pagen beleif in which the people felt secure looking at something. which got indoctrined into Christian beleifs later.
Moreover, The quran cannot be included icons, because the quran is not our creation but Allahs.
Idoltry was a pagen beleif in which the people felt secure looking at something. which got indoctrined into Christian beleifs later.
K.Venugopal
Immobile Wanderer
What about the black stone in Mecca?
nawab
Active Member
What about the black stone, the black stone is not an idol it does not have a face like yours or like your picture.
Black stone is just like any gem which is decorated on the Kaaba and Historians tell us even before Islam the Black stone was never worshipped even by the pagens/idol worshippers
Black stone is just like any gem which is decorated on the Kaaba and Historians tell us even before Islam the Black stone was never worshipped even by the pagens/idol worshippers
K.Venugopal
Immobile Wanderer
I am aware that Muslims worship only Allah. What prompted me to bring in the black stone was your statement, "...Islam ... don't give any space for the use of an icon, image, sculpture...etc".
nawab
Active Member
Yes brother, I did said that and i stick to it i have told you that it is not an icon nor image or a sculpture it is an ordinary stone not sacred we do not worship the stone.
The purpose of the stone is not the same as the purpose of a statue of Jesus/Mary in a church or Shiva/Ganesh/Durga in a hindu temple. I hope it is clear
Bythe way we dont use it for worship we say that it is a decoration on the Kaaba, we just kiss the stone but we dont have a concept that the Stone is holy in a sense that it will do harm or for good fortune or luck.
The purpose of the stone is not the same as the purpose of a statue of Jesus/Mary in a church or Shiva/Ganesh/Durga in a hindu temple. I hope it is clear
Bythe way we dont use it for worship we say that it is a decoration on the Kaaba, we just kiss the stone but we dont have a concept that the Stone is holy in a sense that it will do harm or for good fortune or luck.
K.Venugopal
Immobile Wanderer
I quote the following from Wikipedia:
"According to Islamic tradition, the Stone fell from Heaven during the time of Adam and Eve, when it was a pure and dazzling white, but has since turned black because of the sins it has absorbed over the years[2]. It was later removed and hidden in the hill of Abu Qubays near Mecca. When Abraham rebuilt the Kaaba, the Archangel Gabriel brought the stone out of hiding and gave it to him.[6] Muhammad is said to have played a key part in the history of the Black Stone. In 602, before the first of his prophetic revelations, he was present in Mecca during the rebuilding of the Kaaba. The Black Stone had been temporarily removed while a new structure was being constructed. A story found in Ibn Ishaq's Sirah Rasul Allah (as reconstructed and translated by Guillaume) shows Muhammad settling a quarrel between Meccan clans as to which clan should set the Black Stone in place. His solution was to have all the clan elders raise the cornerstone on a cloak, and then Muhammad set the stone into its final place with his own hands."
Is the Black Stone a mere ordinary stone? Can any stone that absorbs sins be an ordinary stone?
K.Venugopal
Immobile Wanderer
Actually, this is also the understanding of Hindu idol worshippers. Since Hindus believe all existence is divine, the Hindu idol-worshipper concentrates on the specific to celebrate the totality.
K.Venugopal
Immobile Wanderer
Of course, I understand and respect the Christian belief about God, though I am unable to understand the Christian insistence that Jesus is the only way of salvation (or Jesus way is the only way of salvation). However, I personally see Jesus as a metaphor for spirituality and therefore I am very comfortable with Jesus and the Bible.
nawab
Active Member
Yet even this story is agreed by most islamic scholars, that doesnt prove that it is used as worship or as a salvation. Everything white due time turns into black plus you every years millions of pillgrims go there for Hajj (Holy Pillgrimage in Mecca) we have to kiss the stone as a part of the rites as the stone according to Islamic traditions will bear witness for us, who have performed the Hajj
As you say the stone is from Heaven, if any ordinary stick could turn into a Snake.
why cant anything happen by God Will, i dont understand, anyway the story of the Black Stone, is not mentioned in the Quran. So, we dont put much emphasis on it.
the Prophet told us any person who have performed the Pillgrim will have his sins earased. It is an ordinary stone, which will bear witness for us, and absorbes our sins by God Almightys command. The Law of Science in the world does not apply on God Almighty. We cannot explain his mights even in the most expressive language.
By the way, brother we dont focus much on Miracles.
As you say the stone is from Heaven, if any ordinary stick could turn into a Snake.
why cant anything happen by God Will, i dont understand, anyway the story of the Black Stone, is not mentioned in the Quran. So, we dont put much emphasis on it.
the Prophet told us any person who have performed the Pillgrim will have his sins earased. It is an ordinary stone, which will bear witness for us, and absorbes our sins by God Almightys command. The Law of Science in the world does not apply on God Almighty. We cannot explain his mights even in the most expressive language.
By the way, brother we dont focus much on Miracles.
K.Venugopal
Immobile Wanderer
A stone bearing witness? Why do you still keep saying it is an ordinary stone?
nawab
Active Member
Because for us Muslims it is not a big thing that we have to be amused but it seems that maybe do not know the Strenght of God almighty thats why you feel different. It is an ordinary stone.
e.g. a small seed so tiny that you can hold with 2 fingers grows so tall, this is also a miracle but you dont find it extra ordinary do you.
e.g. a small seed so tiny that you can hold with 2 fingers grows so tall, this is also a miracle but you dont find it extra ordinary do you.
K.Venugopal
Immobile Wanderer
If you believe the following are facts, then you have to concede that the Black Stone is an extraordinary stone.
A pure and dazzling white stone falls from heaven during the time of Adam and Eve, which eventually turns black as it absorbs man’s sins over the years, is later removed and hidden and when Abraham rebuilds the Kaaba, the Archangel Gabriel (no less) brings the very stone out of “hiding”, then again Mohammad reinstalls the stone (not any stone but THE stone) in the Kaaba and kisses it. Today that stone is the epicenter of Islamic consciousness – signifying the direction to send prayers to Allah.
A stone with such a colourful history and central to Islamic rituals is certainly no ordinary stone. The power of Allah has made this stone a special stone. Why deny it is a big thing in Islam?
nawab
Active Member
look, brother you have mentioned 2 things, 1st the stone is the direction of prayer, the real direction is the Masjid al Haram where the Kabaa (Black Cube) is located. that is our Kibla (direcection) I hope this part is clear, the stone is not. Remember the stone is only in one of the four sides but people perform prayers around the cube.
Moreover, I said, if you feel it is an extra ordinary stone, from the way you are thinking i agree with you, but see brother in Islam we admire the painter not the painting. the stone was also created, Allah creates but is not created so, we dont feel any created things are extra ordinary. our creator is far superior. for him to create a million Jesus is just like that and to create a million of these kind of stones is just like that. We are too much used to miracles, in this world there are alot of amazing things, for more information i suggest you can study from Harun Yahya videos about Islamic Creationism, I hope my explaination was clear enough.
Moreover, I said, if you feel it is an extra ordinary stone, from the way you are thinking i agree with you, but see brother in Islam we admire the painter not the painting. the stone was also created, Allah creates but is not created so, we dont feel any created things are extra ordinary. our creator is far superior. for him to create a million Jesus is just like that and to create a million of these kind of stones is just like that. We are too much used to miracles, in this world there are alot of amazing things, for more information i suggest you can study from Harun Yahya videos about Islamic Creationism, I hope my explaination was clear enough.
Thats actually exactly how we see Christian iconography. We use the created to meditate on the creator.