Men and women and the Orgasm Gap

[MysticSang'ha]

Anybody who's ever paid close attention to my posts at RF open forums concerning sexuality very well might remember my contention that much of our cultural attitudes toward sex take - what I call - "male ejaculatory bias." There sometimes is a smug satisfaction when another writer shares my opinion on the matter.

OK, personal victory aside, here is an article that challenges the assumption that the only sex that "qualifies" as real sex is intercourse ending in male ejaculation.

From the link:

Instead of being driven by biology, women’s rate of orgasm relative to men is a function of social forces. For one, we often bifurcate the sexual experience in line with gender norms: men are sexual (they experience desire) and women are sexy (they inspire desire). The focus on men’s internal wants and sensations also draws our attention to his satisfaction. Thus his orgasm, but not necessarily hers, becomes a critical part of what must happen for a sexual encounter to be successful and fulfilling. This is part of why intercourse – a sexual act that is strongly correlated with orgasm for men – is the only act that almost everyone agrees counts as “real sex,” whereas activities that are more likely to produce orgasm in women are considered optional foreplay.

My thoughts are that the assumption comes from a sexual paradigm that emphasizes procreative sex as the ideal over sexual activities that bond through play, romance, or even recreation. That procreative sex where males are ultimately satisfied as the exclamation point of the experience, the "money shot", is the goal. Hence, my personal critique that our culture suffers from male ejaculatory bias.

Let's talk about this, shall we?

 

[WyattDerp]

WTF? For me as a dude, an orgasm is nice... but the female orgasm is AWESOME. It's definately the main attraction haha... even though I'm experiencing it myself, just being close to it is great ^^ And then there is this endless ability for women to have orgasms, too.. the male orgasm, in comparison, is sitting in a corner with a dunce hat, being utterly boring.

 

[bobhikes]

Anybody who's ever paid close attention to my posts at RF open forums concerning sexuality very well might remember my contention that much of our cultural attitudes toward sex take - what I call - "male ejaculatory bias." There sometimes is a smug satisfaction when another writer shares my opinion on the matter.

OK, personal victory aside, here is an article that challenges the assumption that the only sex that "qualifies" as real sex is intercourse ending in male ejaculation.

From the link:


My thoughts are that the assumption comes from a sexual paradigm that emphasizes procreative sex as the ideal over sexual activities that bond through play, romance, or even recreation. That procreative sex where males are ultimately satisfied as the exclamation point of the experience, the "money shot", is the goal. Hence, my personal critique that our culture suffers from male ejaculatory bias.

Let's talk about this, shall we?

I don't believe so, even nature has slanted the experience. For a male to produce an offspring he must have an orgasm. A woman can produce an offspring without orgasm.

Another part of the problem is that each woman gets excited differently. With woman there is more of a mental process invovled. You have to find what excites each woman. With a man one action generally results in success.

You are also generalizing it. I can and have had an orgasm from forplay alone. I am excited and enjoy forplay; however, it was far and few women that would allow foreplay until they orgasm. This can be societal but may be other things as well.

Again I may be the exception as a male but I could stay in bed all day with my partner and play and touch her however she wants. Even after orgasm I like to cuddle and in 15 minutes 30 minutes tops could be ready again and foreplay does not require that I am ready anyway.

 

[Caladan]

Instead of being driven by biology, women’s rate of orgasm relative to men is a function of social forces. For one, we often bifurcate the sexual experience in line with gender norms: men are sexual (they experience desire) and women are sexy (they inspire desire). The focus on men’s internal wants and sensations also draws our attention to his satisfaction. Thus his orgasm, but not necessarily hers, becomes a critical part of what must happen for a sexual encounter to be successful and fulfilling. This is part of why intercourse – a sexual act that is strongly correlated with orgasm for men – is the only act that almost everyone agrees counts as “real sex,” whereas activities that are more likely to produce orgasm in women are considered optional foreplay.

I pity the culture that adheres to the above. I pity the culture that it's men believe that their orgasm is the pinnacle of sex. and I pity the culture that its entire spectrum of sexual activity is the missionary position. I also pity the culture in which women don't find men sexy, but still seek to pleasure them above all.
In short, sorry Heather, but the above to me is filled with false assumptions.
As a man, I wish to satisfy my partners just the same. I certainly know that they think I'm sexy. I don't consider ejaculation or even orgasm to be the embodiment of a sexual act, which can be experienced in dozens if not hundreds of ways. In short, it sounds like the kind of American football culture we hear about in the media, which usually ends in a humiliation and abuse of a young drunk girl.

Also, I think its worthwhile to note that a man with even a basic knowledge of tantric technique can have an orgasm without ejaculating.

 

[WyattDerp]

Another part of the problem is that each woman gets excited differently. With woman there is more of a mental process invovled.

That's not a problem, that's the best thing ever.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

WTF? For me as a dude, an orgasm is nice... but the female orgasm is AWESOME. It's definately the main attraction haha... even though I'm experiencing it myself, just being close to it is great ^^ And then there is this endless ability for women to have orgasms, too.. the male orgasm, in comparison, is sitting in a corner with a dunce hat, being utterly boring.

Well, as much as I revel in the ability to produce multiple orgasms, I don't exactly think the male orgasm is boring. I think it's awesome, but the question was if male ejaculation was the defining characteristic in our culture's definition of "sex."

In other words, overall according to our society, if a man doesn't ejaculate, is the experience still "sex"? Is it less of a sexual act? The article paints a picture that as awesome as the female orgasm is (and I do acknowledge as the article does that the sexual revolution has given us much to ponder about with female pleasure as being important), we still have a way to go with the assumption that sex can end with a female orgasm, no male ejaculation, and the couple convinced they had completed and fulfilled "sex."

I don't believe so, even nature has slanted the experience. For a male to produce an offspring he must have an orgasm. A woman can produce an offspring without orgasm.

Not necessarily. I know for some researchers the jury is still out, but some studies do indicate varying levels of sperm cells present in pre-ejaculate, which means that heterosexual intercourse can result in conception without male ejaculation.

Another part of the problem is that each woman gets excited differently. With woman there is more of a mental process invovled. You have to find what excites each woman. With a man one action generally results in success.

Not in my experience. What turns one man on might disgust and horrify another. One example is biting....I've known men who become aroused at the mere thought of it while others become utterly repulsed by it.

You are also generalizing it. I can and have had an orgasm from forplay alone. I am excited and enjoy forplay; however, it was far and few women that would allow foreplay until they orgasm. This can be societal but may be other things as well.

Again I may be the exception as a male but I could stay in bed all day with my partner and play and touch her however she wants. Even after orgasm I like to cuddle and in 15 minutes 30 minutes tops could be ready again and foreplay does not require that I am ready anyway.

I might be generalizing. In fact, I certainly hope so.

I pity the culture that adheres to the above. I pity the culture that it's men believe that their orgasm is the pinnacle of sex. and I pity the culture that its entire spectrum of sexual activity is the missionary position. I also pity the culture in which women don't find men sexy, but still seek to pleasure them above all.
In short, sorry Heather, but the above to me is filled with false assumptions.
As a man, I wish to satisfy my partners just the same. I certainly know that they think I'm sexy. I don't consider ejaculation or even orgasm to be the embodiment of a sexual act, which can be experienced in dozens if not hundreds of ways. In short, it sounds like the kind of American football culture we hear about in the media, which usually ends in a humiliation and abuse of a young drunk girl.

Also, I think its worthwhile to note that a man with even a basic knowledge of tantric technique can have an orgasm without ejaculating.

Good points.

Let me offer another point from the article....college-aged women were asked their thoughts on how important their pleasure was in "hook-ups" compared to their male partners' pleasure. It was interesting to note that the majority of women felt ashamed or guilty in expecting that for casual sex that they ought to have an orgasm, while it was expected for the male to have an orgasm. All men and women felt differently when they were in loving and committed relationships, which expressed the same general sentiments as y'all have given here.

I'm wondering if it's just part of youth culture, since all males I've met at least over 30 were much more interested in ensuring his female partner enjoyed herself to the point of orgasm. Regardless of how casual the sex was or how committed the partners are to each other. But, I also tend to hang out with certain types of people anyway, so it could be confirmation bias on my part.

Oh, and major props for reminding RF that tantra trumps just about everything (IMO).

 

[bobhikes]

After thinking some more

First a sexual encounter should be good for both partners. If your needs aren't fullfilled you should let the other know.

Second unless the women mak their orgasm a priorty for sex, it will always male orgasm driven. The whole point of sex for the man is to orgasm. If he does not orgasm during a sexual encounter it is a major problem.

Third
As a man I will go on record in full support of female orgasm as long as they do. If they don't want one there is very little I can do.

Questions.
As a male I can go from no sexual urges to orgasm in under a minute with the right insipiration. Can women do the same?

Do women feel the same depression if they do not orgasm with a sexual encounter?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

After thinking some more

First a sexual encounter should be good for both partners. If your needs aren't fullfilled you should let the other know.

Second unless the women mak their orgasm a priorty for sex, it will always male orgasm driven. The whole point of sex for the man is to orgasm. If he does not orgasm during a sexual encounter it is a major problem.

Third
As a man I will go on record in full support of female orgasm as long as they do. If they don't want one there is very little I can do.

I'm not saying there definitely is one, but reading your points here might be interpreted as having the male ejaculatory bias I have presented. Saying that the whole point of sex for the male is to orgasm? Is this a personal opinion or an assumption for all males?

Questions.
As a male I can go from no sexual urges to orgasm in under a minute with the right insipiration. Can women do the same?

Can only speak for myself, but I once experienced orgasm in the middle of a coffee shop while meeting with two men over a community project we were planning. And all because I let my mind drift to a previous sexual encounter that was so intense and amazing that it literally left a lasting impression.

Time between no sexual urges and orgasm brought about by thought alone? I didn't time it, but I'm quite confident that one was less than a minute. These occurrences are not everyday, but they're not rare, either.

Do women feel the same depression if they do not orgasm with a sexual encounter?

Again, I can only speak for myself. I notice something with my mind/body when I don't orgasm. Usually it immediately precedes a sickness or a change of weather (strange, I know, but true). My body tends to prepare itself not just by de-sensitizing sexually, but with hunger and energy, too. Right before a sickness or barometric pressure change, I tend to orgasm less, be exhausted, and be less hungry.

I don't find it to be a cause for depression, though. I just generally take extra care of myself if I catch on to the connection fast enough. But no, just "try again next time" is the attitude I have if an orgasm is lacking.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Fine, hurry up and orgasm so you can go make me my friggin sandwich already.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Fine, hurry up and orgasm so you can go make me my friggin sandwich already.

Guess it's the equivalent of "Hurry up and finish so I can get some sleep."

 

[bobhikes]

I'm not saying there definitely is one, but reading your points here might be interpreted as having the male ejaculatory bias I have presented. Saying that the whole point of sex for the male is to orgasm? Is this a personal opinion or an assumption for all males?
.

I can't speak for all males either, but I believe there is a male ejaculatory bias. I believe it to be driven by females.

Sexual drive is the hardest thing for me to control. Again I may be not typical. After Orgasming I can control it better and maybe women know this and use this to their advantage. Most of my female partners have not made their orgasm a priorty. I think most females realize that if a man is given an orgasm he will come back again it is what most men want from the relationship. As a male I have never felt that women most want orgasm's from me. Maybe I am not understanding my relationships properly.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I can't speak for all males either, but I believe there is a male ejaculatory bias. I believe it to be driven by females.

I disagree. I see it driven by culture overall. Maybe you can explain further why you think it's driven by females?

Sexual drive is the hardest thing for me to control. Again I may be not typical. After Orgasming I can control it better and maybe women know this and use this to their advantage. Most of my female partners have not made their orgasm a priorty. I think most females realize that if a man is given an orgasm he will come back again it is what most men want from the relationship. As a male I have never felt that women most want orgasm's from me. Maybe I am not understanding my relationships properly.

It's possible you're simply projecting. I once had a male partner who knew himself to require two orgasms in every encounter. One right away because he felt he couldn't control it, and then because his refractory period was a matter of minutes, he had a desire for more sex to where he could last much much longer and could focus more on my pleasure. We worked out our arrangements in that manner, but not every man works that way. In fact, he's the only one I know who ever required an immediate orgasm in order to enjoy a more luxuriating sexual experience overall.

But since we both wanted to enjoy the sex we had together, that's what we worked out. We called it the "primer" to the real thing.

 

[Revoltingest]

An old Revotingistanian chestnut:
How does a guy satisfy a woman?
Meh...who cares?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Anybody who's ever paid close attention to my posts at RF open forums concerning sexuality very well might remember my contention that much of our cultural attitudes toward sex take - what I call - "male ejaculatory bias." There sometimes is a smug satisfaction when another writer shares my opinion on the matter.

OK, personal victory aside, here is an article that challenges the assumption that the only sex that "qualifies" as real sex is intercourse ending in male ejaculation.

From the link:


My thoughts are that the assumption comes from a sexual paradigm that emphasizes procreative sex as the ideal over sexual activities that bond through play, romance, or even recreation. That procreative sex where males are ultimately satisfied as the exclamation point of the experience, the "money shot", is the goal. Hence, my personal critique that our culture suffers from male ejaculatory bias.

Let's talk about this, shall we?

Good post. I agree, I think it's devastating for female sexuality when we are taught about "virginity" and penis in vagina being the main part of sex. This would make lesbian sex not really sex just foreplay.
It causes some of us not to see our orgasms as equally important because most of us can't orgasm from penis in vagina, we end up sacrificing our pleasure and convincing ourselves that we are satisfied with not having an orgasm and that we should find pleasure in pleasing our partners more than ourselves.
Masturbation and oral sex is a big part of female sexuality.

 

[bobhikes]

I disagree. I see it driven by culture overall. Maybe you can explain further why you think it's driven by females?



It's possible you're simply projecting. I once had a male partner who knew himself to require two orgasms in every encounter. One right away because he felt he couldn't control it, and then because his refractory period was a matter of minutes, he had a desire for more sex to where he could last much much longer and could focus more on my pleasure. We worked out our arrangements in that manner, but not every man works that way. In fact, he's the only one I know who ever required an immediate orgasm in order to enjoy a more luxuriating sexual experience overall.

But since we both wanted to enjoy the sex we had together, that's what we worked out. We called it the "primer" to the real thing.

I can not think like a woman, I had limited sexual partners, I like foreplay and experimenting, suggesting it to my partners. None of them made their orgasm's a priorty in sex or in the relationship.

I have spoken to many women and they are naive to how sexually driven men really are which again speaks to me that they are not as sexually driven.

I believe that sexual drive is a weakness in the male population given by nature so woman can have some control over the physically stronger partner.:sorry1:

 

[Skwim]

Anybody who's ever paid close attention to my posts at RF open forums concerning sexuality very well might remember my contention that much of our cultural attitudes toward sex take - what I call - "male ejaculatory bias." There sometimes is a smug satisfaction when another writer shares my opinion on the matter.

OK, personal victory aside, here is an article that challenges the assumption that the only sex that "qualifies" as real sex is intercourse ending in male ejaculation.

From the link:


My thoughts are that the assumption comes from a sexual paradigm that emphasizes procreative sex as the ideal over sexual activities that bond through play, romance, or even recreation. That procreative sex where males are ultimately satisfied as the exclamation point of the experience, the "money shot", is the goal. Hence, my personal critique that our culture suffers from male ejaculatory bias.

Let's talk about this, shall we?

Well, there's certainly a male centered bias, but I don't see anything pointing to "procreative sex as the ideal over sexual activities that bond through play, romance, or even recreation." To me it seems to be a simple matter of the social dominance theory coming onto play: males tend to be more dominant than females, hence their needs are better tended to.

Aside from that, I found these remarks in the article to be interesting.

"women who sleep with women have many more orgasms than heterosexual women, almost as many as men who sleep with women."
​

"Women also have no problem experiencing orgasm through masturbation and the same women who frequently have orgasms during masturbation report many fewer orgasms when they’re with a partner."

​

As for a solution to the disparity, I don't see any. For one thing, it's too well-grained in our makeup. For another, there seems to be an inherent physiological difference that may be at work. In some males ejaculation will occur before they're ready (premature ejaculation), and if such a condition plays any roll in the "when" of the male orgasm then the female involved may very well be deprived of hers.

Personally, I enjoy simultaneous orgasms far more than off-timed ones, and therefore strive toward that end.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Good post. I agree, I think it's devastating for female sexuality when we are taught about "virginity" and penis in vagina being the main part of sex. This would make lesbian sex not really sex just foreplay.
It causes some of us not to see our orgasms as equally important because most of us can't orgasm from penis in vagina, we end up sacrificing our pleasure and convincing ourselves that we are satisfied with not having an orgasm and that we should find pleasure in pleasing our partners more than ourselves.
Masturbation and oral sex is a big part of female sexuality.

Very good point!

I can not think like a woman, I had limited sexual partners, I like foreplay and experimenting, suggesting it to my partners. None of them made their orgasm's a priorty in sex or in the relationship.

I have spoken to many women and they are naive to how sexually driven men really are which again speaks to me that they are not as sexually driven.

I believe that sexual drive is a weakness in the male population given by nature so woman can have some control over the physically stronger partner.:sorry1:

Physical domination isn't too difficult with men. When threatened with an attack, males have a lot of very soft and vulnerable spots that only need to be poked or prodded that makes them submit to the physical will of a small woman like me. Eyeballs, the neck, testicles, bending fingers back, that icky spot right under the sternum, just to name a few, are ways to put a big scary mean guy down.

Granted, if big scary mean guy is proficient in hand to hand combat, he does have an advantage with my upper body, but I do what I can, even if has to mean finding ways of kicking them squarely in the knee joint and running away fast.

But I see what you mean as far as having an advantage with sexual drive. There are times when all I have to do is flash my breasts and some males will practically hand me the keys to their car.

Haven't done that in a while, though. LOL....but I remember I did that in a VIP section at a club in NYC, and a millionaire business owner offered to pay for all my living expenses as long as I was his go-to girlfriend for sex and social events. I felt like Julia Roberts in "Pretty Woman" for a second there before I said no thanks.

Never had that experience with women. You might be on to something.

Well, there's certainly a male centered bias, but I don't see anything pointing to "procreative sex as the ideal over sexual activities that bond through play, romance, or even recreation." To me it seems to be a simple matter of the social dominance theory coming onto play: males tend to be more dominant than females, hence their needs are better tended to.

I agree with the social dominance theory, but I also see male ejaculatory bias as not simply symptomatic of social dominance, but a factor in how sex, marriage, and even evolutionary biology is viewed (sorry, even scientists in our culture don't get a free pass from me ). Sex is assumed to be primarily viewed as having a baby-making purpose, and that pair-bonding is seen as a secondary drive. Many people parrot this as if it's as factual as us observing we exist on a planet we called Earth. But how do people come to the conclusion that sex is primarily for reproductive purposes? Is the assumption based on what happens to a penis?

Aside from that, I found these remarks in the article to be interesting.

"women who sleep with women have many more orgasms than heterosexual women, almost as many as men who sleep with women."
​

"Women also have no problem experiencing orgasm through masturbation and the same women who frequently have orgasms during masturbation report many fewer orgasms when they’re with a partner."​

I can vouch for the number of orgasms I've had with women as compared and contrasted with the number of orgasms I've had with men. And I personally can corroborate with the articles findings.

My guess is the overall gaps in refractory periods and the occurence of multiple orgasms in a single encounter.

​

As for a solution to the disparity, I don't see any. It's too well-grained in our makeup.

Biologically? Culturally? A mixture of both? I don't think I follow you when you say it's "well-grained in our makeup."

EDIT TO ADD: Never mind. You explained it before I replied. Thanks.

 

[dust1n]

Anybody who's ever paid close attention to my posts at RF open forums concerning sexuality very well might remember my contention that much of our cultural attitudes toward sex take - what I call - "male ejaculatory bias." There sometimes is a smug satisfaction when another writer shares my opinion on the matter.

OK, personal victory aside, here is an article that challenges the assumption that the only sex that "qualifies" as real sex is intercourse ending in male ejaculation.

From the link:


My thoughts are that the assumption comes from a sexual paradigm that emphasizes procreative sex as the ideal over sexual activities that bond through play, romance, or even recreation. That procreative sex where males are ultimately satisfied as the exclamation point of the experience, the "money shot", is the goal. Hence, my personal critique that our culture suffers from male ejaculatory bias.

Let's talk about this, shall we?

Hmm.. I didn't know exactly how I should respond or what I should get into. I can say something was insightful for me, which was from one of the short stories from DFW's collection Brief Interviews with Hideous Men, and it did a great job at articulated very well of some of my own notions gathered from my own experiences:

Namely, that they are there guys in the world. Those who put a notch on their belt for having an orgasm during sex and there are those who put a notch on their belt for every orgasm they can induce in their wo/men. From what I can remember, putting notches on your belt is the real problem and is rather elaborated on, in regards to its crumminess, to some extent. I indeed to read the whole collection sometime, as it appears a be a very large dig into male sexuality via fiction.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Hmm.. I didn't know exactly how I should respond or what I should get into. I can say something was insightful for me, which was from one of the short stories from DFW's collection Brief Interviews with Hideous Men, and it did a great job at articulated very well of some of my own notions gathered from my own experiences:

Namely, that they are there guys in the world. Those who put a notch on their belt for having an orgasm during sex and there are those who put a notch on their belt for every orgasm they can induce in their wo/men. From what I can remember, putting notches on your belt is the real problem and is rather elaborated on, in regards to its crumminess, to some extent. I indeed to read the whole collection sometime, as it appears a be a very large dig into male sexuality via fiction.

Sounds like a dig against sexual manifestations of competition overall. Keeping score. Something like that.

 

[dust1n]

Sounds like a dig against sexual manifestations of competition overall. Keeping score. Something like that.

Hmm.. I have difficultly recalling... sorry my response was weak, I'm just getting ready for yet another job interview, but let me see if I can't the, uh, 'interview,' I'm referring to in PDF online or tomorrow sometime.