Men in the West are dressed in full; women are dressed half , quarter or less

[dawny0826]

That western media generally portrays women as sexual objects and women are more likely to be judged on appearances than men are.

Which sucks.

I agree.

But, I think that there are other pieces to consider as well.

The confident woman wants to feel good about herself. She's going to wear that which is an expression of her own confidence, preference and comfort level.

There are American women who are very well educated on the trends of the (international) fashion industry. They get excited about what designers have launched for their seasonal lines, as these are the styles of clothing that you will eventually see in department stores. The runways dictate fashion trends.

Put it this way, the confident woman doesn't dwell on the "dress code", whatever the circumstances around it. She simply adapts the dress code to her own style.

 

[painted wolf]

I never denied that it doesn't mold it but it is combination of things, certainly not media itself. However the fact that it reflects and molds it is not to your argument's favor, certainly....

Which was never denied. That does not mean however that it is unequeal in sexual depiction in women again let me repost those studies it is some powerful stuff

So yes to a degree men are sexualied no denying that. However it is much more prevalent among women to the point that different connotations arise between the depiction of two sexes)Amibgious statement. No one said it isn't a perfect mirror it is just very good at reflecting those values society places an emphasis on. That has also been supported by studies I linked to.I am not ignoring the fact it is a fact that need be ignored. Because naturally advertising aims for the largest demographic those that don't fit the pattern are called outliers and aren't relevant to our discussion when looking at society as a whole. So yes while these types of people exist (such as yourself and me I am guessing) when talking about broad cultural tendencies the objectification of women is among the mainstream message of today's America.

And I am talking about the fact that "broad cultural trends" of women's objectification in the USA doesn't mean that all women in the west dress in a skimpy fashion.

We seem to be talking cross purposes and in circles.

wa:do

 

[beenie]

I would like to add that we are not comparing here trends in the West with the trends in the East.

We are making comparison of the West with the West; more precisely of the Victorian period West with the current West.

During the intervening period; women have resorted to being less dressed to attract men to them with the result, I may be wrong, cheating on sex has increased; again to the detriment of the interests of women.

Divorces and family break-ups have increased; which is socially undesirable.

Etc., etc.., and etc..

Is this situation desirable, good or it is the best now than in the past.

Do you really think a change is women's dress code is responsible for the breakdown of marriage? It's far more complicated than that, and the divorce rate in the Muslim dominated societies would be far higher if women weren't blamed and left high and dry for divorcing. It's hard to go through with a divorce if you know you'll likely be outcasted and lose your children too. Let's be real here.

I'm very glad we're out of the Victorian times; those corsets the women stuffed themselves into must have hurt!

 

[painted wolf]

Do you really think a change is women's dress code is responsible for the breakdown of marriage? It's far more complicated than that, and the divorce rate in the Muslim dominated societies would be far higher if women weren't blamed and left high and dry for divorcing. It's hard to go through with a divorce if you know you'll likely be outcasted and lose your children too. Let's be real here.

I'm very glad we're out of the Victorian times; those corsets the women stuffed themselves into must have hurt!

There must be a way they can blame everything on women's immodesty.

If only western women dressed in hijabs or burkas then we wouldn't have jaywalkers or litter. Everything would be perfect.

wa:do

 

[paarsurrey]

Do you really think a change is women's dress code is responsible for the breakdown of marriage? It's far more complicated than that, and the divorce rate in the Muslim dominated societies would be far higher if women weren't blamed and left high and dry for divorcing. It's hard to go through with a divorce if you know you'll likely be outcasted and lose your children too. Let's be real here.

I'm very glad we're out of the Victorian times; those corsets the women stuffed themselves into must have hurt!

I don't want to make comparison with the trends in the East.

We are just to search for the reasons in the West with the West.

 

[dawny0826]

As a female, I try really hard to wear modest cloths as I think it is more professional. It can be hard to find them though, most fancy dresses have big slits and low cut fronts, so you have to tailor them to get them fixed.

I think we should all start pushing for women to dress modestly, to teach women that you don't show confidence by wearing slutty cloths, that we are more than our bodies, and that you will receive more respect by dressing respectfully.

I think that this is absurd.

I have full respect for "dress code", be it dress code at school, the office, etc.

A woman can express her individuality and style, while remaining within a "dress code" that's acceptable for the circumstances and I do think that women should take responsibility for doing so.

However, that which you deem to be slutty may be deemed respectable and/or fashionable to others, in any given situation.

What's most important is how the woman feels when she puts her clothing on. I don't have much respect for the woman who wears something, knowing that it will draw attention to herself in a given setting and then proceeds to bellyache over criticism over such choices.

But confident women with good sense are a different breed, in my opinion. I think some men would do well to acknowledge that women aren't always dressing for the sake of pleasing or attracting the opposite sex.

Some women enjoy clothing because clothing is fashionable - it's a wearable art form and a manner in which to express self. Though I think that each individual should use good judgement, I think that society, American society in particular, would do well to judge women less, as there are too many stigmas attached to particular types of dress.

 

[beenie]

I don't want to make comparison with the trends in the East.

We are just to search for the reasons in the West with the West.

What? You asserted that the change in clothing is responsible for the increase in divorce rate, and I challenged you by asking how you reached that conclusion.

 

[Alceste]

What? You asserted that the change in clothing is responsible for the increase in divorce rate, and I challenged you by asking how you reached that conclusion.

Surely the receding hemline has far more to do with rising divorce rates than, say, being considered full legal persons with the right to vote, have our own autonomous careers, own property and control our reproduction. Lol. Because it's NEVER a woman's idea to get a divorce.

 

[FearGod]

What? You asserted that the change in clothing is responsible for the increase in divorce rate, and I challenged you by asking how you reached that conclusion.

i think you did misunderstand his conclusion.

He meant to say,i think,that cheating increased (infidelity) because men are attracted to other women using sexy dresses to attract them.

i think that is true to some degree,men maybe are easily attracted by sex drive,not a general concept,but to some it is very true.

 

[beenie]

i think you did misunderstand his conclusion.

He meant to say,i think,that cheating increased (infidelity) because men are attracted to other women using sexy dresses to attract them.

i think that is true to some degree,men maybe are easily attracted by sex drive,not a general concept,but to some it is very true.

If a man is going to cheat, he's going to cheat. It's a man's problem if he can't control himself over a woman in a "sexy" dress.

When are we going to make men responsible for their actions instead of hiding women behind cloth? It's ridiculous how much latitude we give these poor, horny men. Time for them to grow up.

 

[painted wolf]

Across most of "the West" divorce rates are not on average higher than in any other devolved part of the world.

The USA has the highest divorce rates (though that number fluctuates) but other nations in "the West" are no higher than say nations in "the middle east" or "the east".
For example Ireland and Italy have a lower divorce rate than Kuwait, Palestine, Jordan and Quatar.

It's not like women in the "middle east" run around in skimpy outfits, so clearly something else is going on.

wa:do

 

[FearGod]

Across most of "the West" divorce rates are not on average higher than in any other devolved part of the world.

The USA has the highest divorce rates (though that number fluctuates) but other nations in "the West" are no higher than say nations in "the middle east" or "the east".
For example Ireland and Italy have a lower divorce rate than Kuwait, Palestine, Jordan and Quatar.

It's not like women in the "middle east" run around in skimpy outfits, so clearly something else is going on.

wa:do

The map showing the top ten in divorce rate

 

[Debater Slayer]

The map showing the top ten in divorce rate

There are many factors which are involved in affecting divorce rates that aren't just limited to dress code or the amount of clothing either gender chooses to wear. If dress code becomes a big enough issue to set a divorce in motion, then there are other underlying causes which are far more complicated and aren't just solved by making men/women wear more or less clothing.

For example, kitchen knives are sold to the public without any restrictions, but the fact of the matter is that they can be used to kill someone. A murderer could buy a kitchen knife and slaughter a victim(s) with it.

However, the general assumption is that not all people are murderers — buying kitchen knives shouldn't cause them to embark on murdering sprees. If someone is ready to murder, they'll do it anyhow. We don't have to outlaw certain pieces of cutlery because they can be used to assault or hurt people.

I think of the "men cheat on their wives when they're turned on by 'immodest' women" argument the same as I think of a loaded gun: if there were no bullets in the gun to begin with, we wouldn't have to worry about pulling the trigger. So men who would be willing to cheat on their wives in this case have a willingness to do it; there's no excuse for them, no matter how much someone tries to blame other people for it. Not dress code, not how much clothing a woman puts on, nothing. It is their fault and only theirs that they were disloyal to their spouses.

 

[beenie]

FearGod, do you understand what I said earlier about women divorcing in the middle east and other Muslim-populated countries? The cultural implications for a woman to divorce over there are too much for most women to risk, so instead of divorcing, they settle for abusive, neglectful, loveless marriages. Certainly there are happy marriages all over the world, but I can guarantee you that the rate of happiness/unhappiness is probably the same everywhere.

...and dress code still has nothing to do with it.

 

[painted wolf]

The map showing the top ten in divorce rate

Thanks for proving my point... high divorce rates are not a feature of the west" alone.
The only country that is part of "the west" on this map is the USA. Though Estonia may also count as it recently joined the EU.

wa:do

 

[Bismillah]

And I am talking about the fact that "broad cultural trends" of women's objectification in the USA doesn't mean that all women in the west dress in a skimpy fashion.

No one said that "all" women dress in this way. However the point and what should be focused on is not a inconsequent minority but the largest demographic represented by, as I said earlier, "media, popular culture, and advertising is a reflection of the values that society holds, it does not retroactively mold society it mirrors it. And it indeed does mirror a depraving and unequal system of sexual exploitation."

We seem to be talking cross purposes and in circles.

Not really you seem to be downplaying and pointing at groups that have no real purpose when discussing American culture as a whole. And yes I agree with both the OP and the numerous studies that I have cited that show that American women are held to a higher sexual standard and thus are expected to model themselves after it. That is what I have a problem with.

 

[Bismillah]

high divorce rates are not a feature of the west" alone.

Here is another list with 8 of the top 10 countries with divorce rates being Western countries

Divorce rate statistics - Countries Compared - NationMaster

 

[beenie]

Here is another list with 8 of the top 10 countries with divorce rates being Western countries

Divorce rate statistics - Countries Compared - NationMaster

Bismillah, honest question: do you think the divorce rates would be higher...significantly higher...in countries like Pakistan if the stigma for a divorced woman weren't so damning? Much of the horrible treatment of divorced women comes from her own family in the form of shame.

Secondary to that, if there was a system in place to help these women and the children thrive after divorcing, do you agree that more would choose this option, rather than staying in miserable marriages?

 

[FearGod]

There are many factors which are involved in affecting divorce rates that aren't just limited to dress code or the amount of clothing either gender chooses to wear. If dress code becomes a big enough issue to set a divorce in motion, then there are other underlying causes which are far more complicated and aren't just solved by making men/women wear more or less clothing.

For example, kitchen knives are sold to the public without any restrictions, but the fact of the matter is that they can be used to kill someone. A murderer could buy a kitchen knife and slaughter a victim(s) with it.

However, the general assumption is that not all people are murderers — buying kitchen knives shouldn't cause them to embark on murdering sprees. If someone is ready to murder, they'll do it anyhow. We don't have to outlaw certain pieces of cutlery because they can be used to assault or hurt people.

I think of the "men cheat on their wives when they're turned on by 'immodest' women" argument the same as I think of a loaded gun: if there were no bullets in the gun to begin with, we wouldn't have to worry about pulling the trigger. So men who would be willing to cheat on their wives in this case have a willingness to do it; there's no excuse for them, no matter how much someone tries to blame other people for it. Not dress code, not how much clothing a woman puts on, nothing. It is their fault and only theirs that they were disloyal to their spouses.

Hi Debater Slayer,

you had asked me a honest question about my believe on evolution and i am just wondering that your question and my reply was deleted.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Hi Debater Slayer,

you had asked me a honest question about my believe on evolution and i am just wondering that your question and my reply was deleted.

It was in another thread, and both the question and your reply are still there. Nothing was deleted.