Messiah (pbuh) important to come(come back) to Jews and Chritians ?

[Pegg]

Wow, I actually agree with a JW on something!

there is always something we can agree on

 

[Thana]

No, it's the prerogative of Christianity, period, for the first 1800 years or so. Christian Zionism and Dispensationalism are modern concepts. Even traditional and mainline Protestants don't believe those things.

Well you said so,
So it must be true.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well you said so,
So it must be true.

Feel free to provide evidence that proves me wrong.

 

[InChrist]

Oh, I'm not confused at all. It is when you start saying that God's Covenant still applies to a people who have rejected Him that the confusion sets in. None of Romans 11 says that the Jews who reject Christ are still considered a part of Israel. They were removed from the tree until such time as they come to faith in Christ.

The Jews who rejected Christ were branches that were cut off as Romans 11indicates, but think about what this is saying. A Jew is a Jew and an Israelite, that does not and cannot be changed anymore than I would cease to be a U.S citizen when I was saved and became a believer in Jesus Christ. It is simply saying that The Jews who were cut off are no longer fulfilling the role of representing God on the earth as they had previously, instead now the church is doing so. But this does not mean that God is finished with the nation of Israel or that the Church is now the nation of Israel or that God's literal promises to Israel are now invalidated or apply only in a spiritual sense to the church. Israel was and is a real nation, the church is the body of Christ comprised of people called out from all nations. Although, the scriptures are clear concerning one way of salvation through Christ, they also reveal that these (Israel/Church) are two separate entities and God has purposes and for each.

Paul anticipated a question that would surely arise among his Gentile readers: “I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall?” (Romans 11:1)—Gentile believers would be tempted to dismiss Israel because it appeared they would never recover. Even today, there are those who advocate supersessionism or replacement theology, which holds that the Church has completely replaced Israel and will inherit the promises to be fulfilled only in a spiritual sense. In other words, according to this view, ethnic Israel is forever excluded from the promises—the Jews will not literally inherit the Promised Land. What then would happen to Israel? What about the Old Testament prophecies that Israel as a nation would repent and be re-gathered to the land in the last days as a permanent possession (Deuteronomy 30:1–10)?

Romans 11 thus conclusively shows Gentile believers that God is not yet “done” with Israel, who has only temporarily lost the privilege of representing God as His people. Since “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable” (11:29), “all Israel will be saved” in order to fulfill God’s covenant with ethnic Israel (11:25–28), including the promise of land inheritance (Deuteronomy 30:1–10).

Read more: What does it mean that the church has been grafted in Israel’s place?
​

 

[Thana]

Feel free to provide evidence that proves me wrong.

I base my opinion from the bible, Not from Theology.
It has all the evidence needed.

Romans 11, Malachi 3:6, Romans 1:16, 1 Peter 2:8-9, Genesis 18:18, and so many many more. All distinguish between Jew and Gentile, All remind that the Jews are His Chosen people. You cannot deny that there are two convenants, But one, the first, Was given to the Jews and the Jews alone because they are His chosen people.

Nowhere does it say "Okay they're no longer my chosen people"

I'm tired of this. Deny scripture all you want, I'm out.

 

[InChrist]

I base my opinion from the bible, Not from Theology.
It has all the evidence needed.

Romans 11, Malachi 3:6, Romans 1:16, 1 Peter 2:8-9, Genesis 18:18, and so many many more. All distinguish between Jew and Gentile, All remind that the Jews are His Chosen people. You cannot deny that there are two convenants, But one, the first, Was given to the Jews and the Jews alone because they are His chosen people.

Nowhere does it say "Okay they're no longer my chosen people"

I'm tired of this. Deny scripture all you want, I'm out.

It can be frustrating, but I admire your commitment to standing upon the word of God.

 

[Godobeyer]

I base my opinion from the bible, Not from Theology.
It has all the evidence needed.

Romans 11, Malachi 3:6, Romans 1:16, 1 Peter 2:8-9, Genesis 18:18, and so many many more. All distinguish between Jew and Gentile, All remind that the Jews are His Chosen people. You cannot deny that there are two convenants, But one, the first, Was given to the Jews and the Jews alone because they are His chosen people.

Nowhere does it say "Okay they're no longer my chosen people"

I'm tired of this. Deny scripture all you want, I'm out.

there is other verses said Ishmael (pbuh) nation would be Great Nation, which is the Arabs .

Genesis 17:20
And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

Genesis 21:8-20

8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. 9 But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, 10 and she said to Abraham, “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.” 11 The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. 12 But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. 13 I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring.”
14 Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the Desert of Beersheba.
15 When the water in the skin was gone, she put the boy under one of the bushes. 16 Then she went off and sat down about a bowshot away, for she thought, “I cannot watch the boy die.” And as she sat there, she began to sob.
17 God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. 18 Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.
20 God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. 21 While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Jews who rejected Christ were branches that were cut off as Romans 11indicates, but think about what this is saying. A Jew is a Jew and an Israelite, that does not and cannot be changed anymore than I would cease to be a U.S citizen when I was saved and became a believer in Jesus Christ. It is simply saying that The Jews who were cut off are no longer fulfilling the role of representing God on the earth as they had previously, instead now the church is doing so. But this does not mean that God is finished with the nation of Israel or that the Church is now the nation of Israel or that God's literal promises to Israel are now invalidated or apply only in a spiritual sense to the church. Israel was and is a real nation, the church is the body of Christ comprised of people called out from all nations. Although, the scriptures are clear concerning one way of salvation through Christ, they also reveal that these (Israel/Church) are two separate entities and God has purposes and for each.

Paul anticipated a question that would surely arise among his Gentile readers: “I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall?” (Romans 11:1)—Gentile believers would be tempted to dismiss Israel because it appeared they would never recover. Even today, there are those who advocate supersessionism or replacement theology, which holds that the Church has completely replaced Israel and will inherit the promises to be fulfilled only in a spiritual sense. In other words, according to this view, ethnic Israel is forever excluded from the promises—the Jews will not literally inherit the Promised Land. What then would happen to Israel? What about the Old Testament prophecies that Israel as a nation would repent and be re-gathered to the land in the last days as a permanent possession (Deuteronomy 30:1–10)?

Romans 11 thus conclusively shows Gentile believers that God is not yet “done” with Israel, who has only temporarily lost the privilege of representing God as His people. Since “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable” (11:29), “all Israel will be saved” in order to fulfill God’s covenant with ethnic Israel (11:25–28), including the promise of land inheritance (Deuteronomy 30:1–10).

Read more: What does it mean that the church has been grafted in Israel’s place?
​

Dual Covenant theology is a heresy. All you are doing is misinterpreting verses and making them say what they do not mean. You are actually committing the same error as the Jews of Christ's time committed in that they were hoping for a material kingdom on Earth but Christ's Kingdom is spiritual. In the same way, you are feeding this false desire of the Jews by saying that God is still going to give them what they wish for - a material kingdom and an earthly king! No. Jesus disproved that during His first Coming. God has a habit of using material symbolism and then turning that on its head and leading us to a deeper and more fulfilling meaning. All the symbolism surrounding Israel as a nation and its religion was foreshadowing of the future Kingdom of God that is the Church, which encompasses the entire human race, including the Jews! The Jews, if they wish to be part of God's Kingdom, must join the Church and thereby truly receive the fullness of the Covenant. Then they will be grafted back onto the olive tree as Israelites. But they will remain separated until they come to faith in Christ and join with all other Christians in the unity of the Body, where there is no more Jew or Gentile. God desires the unity of His children. The Church is where this unity comes to pass. Your ancestry privileges you nothing! Not in the eyes of God!

You and Thana will probably never understand it, for obvious reasons.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I base my opinion from the bible, Not from Theology.
It has all the evidence needed.

Romans 11, Malachi 3:6, Romans 1:16, 1 Peter 2:8-9, Genesis 18:18, and so many many more. All distinguish between Jew and Gentile, All remind that the Jews are His Chosen people. You cannot deny that there are two convenants, But one, the first, Was given to the Jews and the Jews alone because they are His chosen people.

Nowhere does it say "Okay they're no longer my chosen people"

I'm tired of this. Deny scripture all you want, I'm out.

None of those verses say what you think they say. It's not enough to read scripture! You must interpret it and not take verses out of context! That's what Evangelical and "Non-Denominational" Christians usually don't get!

 

[Thana]

None of those verses say what you think they say. It's not enough to read scripture! You must interpret it and not take verses out of context! That's what Evangelical and "Non-Denominational" Christians usually don't get!

I wasn't taking them out of context, I was showing you how the bible constantly distinguishes between Jew and Gentile.

The Church is where this unity comes to pass. Your ancestry privileges you nothing! Not in the eyes of God!

For me, Whether Jews are or are not God's chosen people doesn't matter, But I believe they are because the Bible says so. I respect them but I do not believe they have any more a claim on God or His Grace than anyone else.

But it seems that it bothers you and affects your faith, Which it shouldn't.
These details are not significant enough that if you're proven wrong they rock your beliefs, So I think you need to meditate on the bible and your faith.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I wasn't taking them out of context, I was showing you how the bible constantly distinguishes between Jew and Gentile.

No, it doesn't: Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Read the cross references, too. Christ has torn down all boundaries.

For me, Whether Jews are or are not God's chosen people doesn't matter, But I believe they are because the Bible says so. I respect them but I do not believe they have any more a claim on God or His Grace than anyone else.

The Bible doesn't say that. That's the problem here.

But it seems that it bothers you and affects your faith, Which it shouldn't.
These details are not significant enough that if you're proven wrong they rock your beliefs, So I think you need to meditate on the bible and your faith.

The question of who or what is Israel is a very very important one. It directly effects the issue of salvation. The view that Jews are still Israel seems to me to be saying that Jews do not need Christ and they are still in God's favor while rejecting Him. Which is blasphemy.

 

[Thana]

No, it doesn't: Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Read the cross references, too. Christ has torn down all boundaries.

Yup, In grace, love and salvation we're all one in Jesus Christ.

The Bible doesn't say that. That's the problem here.

Oh but, It does.

Deuteronomy 7:6-7
"For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples."

The question of who or what is Israel is a very very important one. It directly effects the issue of salvation. The view that Jews are still Israel seems to me to be saying that Jews do not need Christ and they are still in God's favor while rejecting Him. Which is blasphemy.

No, not really. Israel is what it has always been.

I never said the Jews didn't need Christ or were above that. But they will always be in God's favor, Always loved by Him even when they reject Him. As we are.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yup, In grace, love and salvation we're all one in Jesus Christ.

So what does it matter if you're a Jew or not? Are you saying God is a racist?

Oh but, It does.

Deuteronomy 7:6-7
"For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples."

That's from the Old Testament. God is speaking to the Church in that verse as well, since we are Israel in the modern day.

How about from the Book of Revelation where the unbelieving Jews are referred to as the "synagogue of Satan" twice?

22Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22



Question: Can you explain Titus 1:14?

Answer: The verse reads as follows: "Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." As many of you know, Paul wrote this epistle to a young preacher named Titus (Titus 1: 1-4). Herein, Paul instructs Titus what to preach and how to live. Titus was to "...speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: (2: 1). Titus was to "avoid foolish questions, genealogies and contentions and strivings about the law..." (3: 9).​

Titus would encounter Jewish teachings. Titus is replete with warnings concerning false doctrines which were Jewish in origin and nature. Paul explained, "for there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, especially they of the circumcision" (1: 10). The keeping of genealogies was unimportant because it mattered not if one was of Jewish descent (3: 1; cf. Gal. 3: 25-29). Justification is "by His grace" Paul emphasized to Titus (3: 7). "Jewish fables" were Jewish myths and teachings. The "commandments of men" were teachings which found their origin in men as opposed to God (see Matt. 15: 9).​

Jewish fables and the commandments of men turn from the truth. Appreciate the fact that Paul is, in essence, telling Titus that truth is concrete as opposed to fluid - if we can be turned from the truth, we can possess the truth (see John 8: 32; 1 Pet. 1: 22, 23). Jewish fables and the commandments of men are inconsistent with truth; hence, they turn from it (see Matt. 15: 3-9). When men teach that all you have to do to be saved is have faith only, they are turning from the truth (Jas. 2: 24-26; Heb. 5: 8, 9). When men teach all you have to do to render acceptable worship is just be sincere, they are leading people away from the truth (John 4: 24). In actuality, every time false doctrine is taught, the impetus is away from the truth.​

Preachers today would do well to heed the instruction found in Titus.
Can you explain Titus 1:14?


That doesn't look too good for the non-believing Jews!
​

No, not really. Israel is what it has always been.

Israel is anyone who follows the teachings of God. You cannot follow God lest you accept His Son. The Jews who accepted Christ continued being a part of Israel, such as Jesus' original Jewish followers and the Apostles. The ones who rejected Him lost that position. Israel has always been - and will always be - simply the spiritual nation of God's people. Your ancestry means nothing. Even in the OT, this same concept is found and many of the Israelites were Gentile converts.

I never said the Jews didn't need Christ or were above that. But they will always be in God's favor, Always loved by Him even when they reject Him. As we are.

God loves all of His creation. There's no need to mention His love for the Jewish people since He loves us all. However, those who reject Christ are not part of the spiritual Israelite nation. They are outside of it in their refusal to obey His Son.

 

[Thana]

So what does it matter if you're a Jew or not? Are you saying God is a racist?

Nope. Through Jesus Christ we're all saved, and loved.

It doesn't matter if you're Jew or Gentile. But the Jews are still His people, The ones He made promises too, The ones He chose first. They're the reason we're saved.

That's from the Old Testament. God is speaking to the Church in that verse as well, since we are Israel in the modern day.

What does it matter if it's from the OT? The OT is just as much God's word as the NT.
The Church means nothing to me, So apparently I'm not apart of this new 'Israel' ?

How about from the Book of Revelation where the unbelieving Jews are referred to as the "synagogue of Satan" twice?

Yes, I've read that.
Are you trying to say that he was refering to all synagogues?

That doesn't look too good for the non-believing Jews!

I don't think you've been listening to me. I've never said the non-believing Jews are saved, I've never said they're better than the Gentiles or anything like that.
​

Israel is anyone who follows the teachings of God. You cannot follow God lest you accept His Son. The Jews who accepted Christ continued being a part of Israel, such as Jesus' original Jewish followers and the Apostles. The ones who rejected Him lost that position. Israel has always been - and will always be - simply the spiritual nation of God's people. Your ancestry means nothing. Even in the OT, this same concept is found and many of the Israelites were Gentile converts.

Ah the good old "If it doesn't agree with me pretend it's figurative" belief.
Israel is Israel. To turn it into the Church or some figurative 'it's in all of us' is just fancy nonsense.

God loves all of His creation. There's no need to mention His love for the Jewish people since He loves us all. However, those who reject Christ are not part of the spiritual Israelite nation. They are outside of it in their refusal to obey His Son.

I think somebody needs to read the OT again.
Read it all, Then try to tell me that there is no need to mention God's love of the Jewish people. Without His love of them, We would not have Jesus and we would not be saved.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Nope. Through Jesus Christ we're all saved, and loved.

It doesn't matter if you're Jew or Gentile. But the Jews are still His people, The ones He made promises too, The ones He chose first. They're the reason we're saved.

No, God is the reason why we're saved. You have a very strange way of reading the Bible. The Israelites as well as figures such as Adam and Eve are representations of the entire human race. The story of Israel is a metaphor for God's dealings with humanity and our struggle as a species to understand Him, draw close to Him and do His will. The promises of Israel are extended to all of humanity through what Christ accomplished.

Even Jews will tell you that God didn't choose the Jews. The Jews chose God. Likewise, it is up to all of us to choose God.

What does it matter if it's from the OT? The OT is just as much God's word as the NT.
The Church means nothing to me, So apparently I'm not apart of this new 'Israel' ?

Are you not a part of the Christian Church? Are you not a Christian? Yeah, I think that the Catholic Church is the One True Church, however, all believers in Christ are part of Israel in spirit.

Yes, I've read that.
Are you trying to say that he was refering to all synagogues?

Those verses were referring to Jews who do not accept Christ. In the NT, all those who reject the Gospel are referred to as antichrists, so that would include Jews who reject Christ.

I don't think you've been listening to me. I've never said the non-believing Jews are saved, I've never said they're better than the Gentiles or anything like that.

You could've fooled me. You're saying that Jews are God's people, Jews are the reason we're saved(!) and God apparently has a special love for Jews?!

Ah the good old "If it doesn't agree with me pretend it's figurative" belief.
Israel is Israel. To turn it into the Church or some figurative 'it's in all of us' is just fancy nonsense.

You need to take a Theology 101 class or a Biblical interpretation class because you really have no idea about how to read the Bible.

I think somebody needs to read the OT again.

Stop projecting.

Read it all, Then try to tell me that there is no need to mention God's love of the Jewish people. Without His love of them, We would not have Jesus and we would not be saved.

Yet again, you are saying that God plays favorites and crediting Jews for our salvation instead of God!

 

[Thana]

No, God is the reason why we're saved. You have a very strange way of reading the Bible. The Israelites as well as figures such as Adam and Eve are representations of the entire human race. The story of Israel is a metaphor for God's dealings with humanity and our struggle as a species to understand Him, draw close to Him and do His will. The promises of Israel are extended to all of humanity through what Christ accomplished.

I didn't realize you actually believed that those things in the bible were figurative. If I had of known I would not have bothered to debate in the first place.

Even Jews will tell you that God didn't choose the Jews. The Jews chose God. Likewise, it is up to all of us to choose God.

I very much doubt that.

Are you not a part of the Christian Church? Are you not a Christian? Yeah, I think that the Catholic Church is the One True Church, however, all believers in Christ are part of Israel in spirit.

I'm a Christian but I am not a part of the church.

​

You could've fooled me. You're saying that Jews are God's people, Jews are the reason we're saved(!) and God apparently has a special love for Jews?!

They are, It's true and He does.
Doesn't mean they're entitled to anything more than us.

You need to take a Theology 101 class or a Biblical interpretation class because you really have no idea about how to read the Bible.

I read the bible and interpret through the Spirit, I don't have it read to me and then have someone tell me how to interpret it.
Keeps me honest.

Yet again, you are saying that God plays favorites and crediting Jews for our salvation instead of God!

It's because He loved them that He included us, I credit that to God. I credit all things to God, But without the Jews we wouldn't be saved. It's right there in your bible.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Thana, we're not going to get anywhere with this. I'm not going to agree with you because I would be a heretic, then, and your position makes zero sense to me anyway. So let's just agree to disagree. My education in Biblical interpretation was obviously very different from however you like to interpret the Bible on your own.

 

[Thana]

Thana, we're not going to get anywhere with this. I'm not going to agree with you because I would be a heretic, then, and your position makes zero sense to me anyway. So let's just agree to disagree. My education in Biblical interpretation was obviously very different from however you like to interpret the Bible on your own.

Mmhmm, sure.

Although, If I could suggest one thing, Maybe try reading and interpreting the bible on your own. You might see things differently

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Mmhmm, sure.

Although, If I could suggest one thing, Maybe try reading and interpreting the bible on your own. You might see things differently

There's no such thing as interpreting the Bible on your own. We all approach it with outside influences and presumptions.

Besides, I have looked into the point of view you've espoused on this matter over the years and it never made any sense at all to me.

 

[Godobeyer]

I wasn't taking them out of context, I was showing you how the bible constantly distinguishes between Jew and Gentile.

What you mean by Gentile ?

Gentile include the Christians ?