Messiah (pbuh) important to come(come back) to Jews and Chritians ?

[Sleeppy]

It must be horrible to know that the religion on which your religion is based upon has no armageddon battle in it and only has peace and happiness at the "end".

lol its not even the end. For all we know we might live 100.000 years until Hashem decides to resurrect the dead.

Daniel 12

`And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book. `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever. And thou, O Daniel, hide the things, and seal the book till the time of the end, many do go to and fro, and knowledge is multiplied.' And I have looked -- I, Daniel -- and lo, two others are standing, one here at the edge of the flood, and one there at the edge of the flood, and he saith to the one clothed in linen, who [is] upon the waters of the flood, `Till when [is] the end of these wonders?' And I hear the one clothed in linen, who [is] upon the waters of the flood, and he doth lift up his right hand and his left unto the heavens, and sweareth by Him who is living to the age, that, `After a time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people, finished are all these.' And I have heard, and I do not understand, and I say, `O my lord, what [is] the latter end of these?' And he saith, `Go, Daniel; for hidden and sealed [are] the things till the time of the end; purify themselves, yea, make themselves white, yea, refined are many: and the wicked have done wickedly, and none of the wicked understand, and those acting wisely do understand; and from the time of the turning aside of the perpetual [sacrifice], and to the giving out of the desolating abomination, [are] days a thousand, two hundred, and ninety. O the blessedness of him who is waiting earnestly, and doth come to the days, a thousand, three hundred, thirty and five. And thou, go on to the end, then thou dost rest, and dost stand in thy lot at the end of the days.'

Let's quit pretending. The prophecies speak of many wars and desolations before the time of the end.. Some of these prophecies even speak of the annihilation of entire peoples. Judaism directly influenced Christian theology. Every single Christian idea can be found in the Tanakh.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

How do i offend Christianity by recalling the Christian Armageddon rather simplistic and comparing it to the Jewish messianic era?

My post wasnt even aimed at you. It was aimed at SF because he seemed unable to understand how the rebuilding of the Temple wouldnt be a problem in the Jewish messianic era, while its rather easy. Far easier than finding a way to destroy all those weapons.

Not all Jews believe that the Temple is only to be built after the Messiah comes. It's like how the Zionist Jews just went and took Israel on their own terms and anti-Zionist Jews think that only God Himself has the right to end the exile.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Er, that's the interpretation for almost all of Christianity except for a minority. You also don't have to apologize for it. I'm not.

You mean the thing about antichrist pretending to be a messiah? That could mean several things but not what pop fiction likes to portray it to mean. Also Church fathers did not always agree with each other, are not the last word and antichrist is a word not a person. Its that which successfully opposes people coming together Catholic-ally, so to say that antichrist can masquerade as a false messiah is both complex and possible just not in a physical sense. Antichrist cannot have feet and walk around. The entire problem of fighting anti christ is that you cannot grasp it with your hand. It has very little to do with somebody standing in a temple pretending to be somebody else.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You mean the thing about antichrist pretending to be a messiah? That could mean several things but not what pop fiction likes to portray it to mean. Also Church fathers did not always agree with each other, are not the last word and antichrist is a word not a person. Its that which successfully opposes people coming together Catholic-ally, so to say that antichrist can masquerade as a false messiah is both complex and possible just not in a physical sense. Antichrist cannot have feet and walk around. The entire problem of fighting anti christ is that you cannot grasp it with your hand. It has very little to do with somebody standing in a temple pretending to be somebody else.

The idea that the Antichrist is a system or type of person is one way of looking at it, but not the only way. It is perfectly valid to say that there will be one person who we can apply that title to as the archetype of that concept.

 

[Flankerl]

Daniel 12



Let's quit pretending. The prophecies speak of many wars and desolations before the time of the end.. Some of these prophecies even speak of the annihilation of entire peoples. Judaism directly influenced Christian theology. Every single Christian idea can be found in the Tanakh.

Daniel isnt prophecy. Sorry about that.

Not all Jews believe that the Temple is only to be built after the Messiah comes. It's like how the Zionist Jews just went and took Israel on their own terms and anti-Zionist Jews think that only God Himself has the right to end the exile.

Oh my that took you long. Was beginning to wonder how long it would take.

And no the Jews who think that we have to rebuild the Temple without the Moshiach are a tiny minority.

I'm just pointing out that Rabbinical Judaism is not the Judaism of the ancient Israelites but was just one school that emerged in the 1st century BC. Many people don't seem to realize that. So my religion is not descended from yours. I am not one of those "Judeo-Christian" types.

Thats just like your opinion. As if they just made everything up and that their beliefs arent much older.

Well, please - root out that heresy. It would be nice to have some reminders that the extremist loonies don't represent Judaism in general. It's quite easy to forget at times when your most public and largest Jewish religious organization are extremist loonies.

Chabad arent loonies just because the Rebbe had weird ideas as in fact do most old people at a certain age.

And who will be part of the World to Come?

All righteous people. Jews and Gentiles alike. Sorry about that.

Tikkun Olam isnt just to create a world only inhabited by Jews.

 

[Sleeppy]

Daniel isnt prophecy. Sorry about that.

I thought you'd say that. So in other words, Daniel's 'writings' of the end days are lies, or meaningless dreams? Ok. Maybe these are also liars..

Ezekiel 28. Ezekiel 30. Ezekiel 38. Zechariah 12. Zechariah 14. Hosea 5. Isaiah 17. Isaiah 19. Deuteronomy 20. Joshua 13. 2 Samuel 7. Jeremiah 33.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The idea that the Antichrist is a system or type of person is one way of looking at it, but not the only way. It is perfectly valid to say that there will be one person who we can apply that title to as the archetype of that concept.

Ok, but you can't encapsulate it into one person to get rid of it, especially not by killing that person. Besides the majority of Christianity is hardly the blank check that we could wish for right now. It is not very healthy at the moment.

 

[Godobeyer]

So then why didn't G-d give Muhammad a Torah?

what a question !!!

that's God wish .

God gave him Quran instead of Torah , Torah gave to Moses before .

 

[xkatz]

what a question !!!

that's God wish .

God gave him Quran instead of Torah , Torah gave to Moses before .

But then it's not same religion, just very similar ideas.

 

[metis]

Thank you for that list. I notice there is a lot of play in how each these could be read in English, Metis. For example Isaiah 2:4 doesn't specifically mention either a king or any individual person. Isaiah 11:1 doesn't say king or messiah either. Isaiah 52:7 mentions neither king nor messiah.

I cannot find 'King' or 'Messiah' in any of these. It is an interpolation.

This is why context becomes so terribly important, but it also leaves us with at least some uncertainty as to whom is actually being referred to in a particular narrative. In our scriptures, symbolism and comparisons, including the use of flashbacks, are heavily used much of the time, and only context can help to pin-point exactly whom was being referred to.

 

[metis]

Christianity is not descended from Phariseeism, as Rabbinical Judaism is. The Pharisees were the opponents of Christ.

Jesus was operating from a Pharisee tradition, as was Paul, but they were a movement more than just a single group. Jesus appears to be much more aligned with the more liberal Pharisee element if we can rely on the gospels at all. Therefore, Jesus' attack on the Pharisees was essentially an internal "family" argument, and they can be quite bitter, and the element he especially seems to have opposed were the mainline Pharisees that relied heavily on the "oral law" and "building a fence around the Torah" ("laws made by men").

 

[Godobeyer]

in our liturgy and tradition that land has always been referred to as Eretz Yisrael

so why some Jews here (in RF) deny this , and they accuse me that i am ignornce man and it's just about tallit .

and if the Moshiach comes, bringing the final redemption, then the Temple will stand and not be destroyed

final redemption from what ?

So when the Messiah (pbuh) comes , the Temple will stand .
not the temple stand then Messiah (pbuh) come ?

I am not here to discuss what happened with the prophets, this is about the concept of messiah, Christianity vs Judaism

it's seem that you discussed other subjects in this thread , but you ignored/don't feel ?

check out your previous post #77 :

when I say Israel it has nothing to do with the current nation-state, rather the geographical area which has always held the name Israel within judaism

the guarantee we have is the belief that G-d will not allow it to happen, period.

and while we both believe in One G-d, Judaism and Islam do not view G-d the same, otherwise Muhammed would have been a convert to Judaism instead of forming a new religion.

so you discussed many subjects in this thread like : the Israeli state and Islam vs Judaism God view .

perhaps with the coming of Moshiach we will do away with this replacement theology as well

Messiah (pbuh) will come to Jews or to all the world ?

 

[Godobeyer]

But then it's not same religion, just very similar ideas.

EDITED Error type and addition :



Adam (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh) or Noah (pbuh) had not the same God so the same religion as Isaac (pbuh) and Moses ...etc ?

God religion is one religion , God send the same message to Jews and Christians and Muslims

as you know we the muslims believe that the Jews and Christians edited the message of God , so God sent many Prophet to Jews .

 

[xkatz]

Adam (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh) or Noah (pbuh) had not the same God so the same religion as Isaac (pbuh) and Moses ...etc ?

God religion is one religion , God send the same message to Jews and Christians and Muslims

as you know we the muslims believe that the Jews and Christians edited the message of God , so God sent many Prophet to Jews .

Yes, but if Muslims believe such, why didn't G-d just give everyone a Quran to begin with? Why would He bother with sending a Torah if He knew the message would be distorted? It seems to contradict G-d's omniscience.

Also, I would argue that while fundamentally all religions believe in the one G-d, they have somewhat different messages, beliefs, and practices.

 

[Godobeyer]

Yes, but if Muslims believe such, why didn't G-d just give everyone a Quran to begin with?

that's what only God knows .

God sent many prophets and many books .

Why would He bother with sending a Torah if He knew the message would be distorted? It seems to contradict G-d's omniscience.

that's what only God wishes , since there , why He sent Prophet to jews , if HE Know, they (the prophets) would be killed by Jews in the first place ?

Also, I would argue that while fundamentally all religions believe in the one G-d, they have somewhat different messages, beliefs, and practices.

Good, before you start argue me

I have notice about (G-d).
I find it a dirty respect manner to put (-) inside "our" Lord label in English !!!?
why you did not do the same , by put (-) instead of (o) in these words too ? :Moshiach ,Torah , Moses , Yehoshua ....etc.

I call it dirty respect , because there is no close express to it , except that sense.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Jesus was operating from a Pharisee tradition, as was Paul, but they were a movement more than just a single group. Jesus appears to be much more aligned with the more liberal Pharisee element if we can rely on the gospels at all. Therefore, Jesus' attack on the Pharisees was essentially an internal "family" argument, and they can be quite bitter, and the element he especially seems to have opposed were the mainline Pharisees that relied heavily on the "oral law" and "building a fence around the Torah" ("laws made by men").

Nonsense. Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus identified as a Pharisee and His movement is always distinguished from them. Paul was a Pharisee until he converted. You cannot be a Pharisee and a follower of Christ.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Oh my that took you long. Was beginning to wonder how long it would take.

And no the Jews who think that we have to rebuild the Temple without the Moshiach are a tiny minority.

And hopefully their numbers stay small. But I wonder how many "Christian" Zionists support rebuilding the Temple.

Thats just like your opinion. As if they just made everything up and that their beliefs arent much older.

It is not my "opinion". It is fact. Go do some research.

Chabad arent loonies just because the Rebbe had weird ideas as in fact do most old people at a certain age.

Lol, you obviously don't know what they believe, or maybe you do and it's telling that you're making excuses for them. They're racist, anti-Christian loons.

All righteous people. Jews and Gentiles alike. Sorry about that.

Tikkun Olam isnt just to create a world only inhabited by Jews.

And how does a Gentile become righteous?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Ok, but you can't encapsulate it into one person to get rid of it, especially not by killing that person. Besides the majority of Christianity is hardly the blank check that we could wish for right now. It is not very healthy at the moment.

I believe that Antichrist is a type of person, a system and an ultimate person to come in the future. That person will be destroyed at the end. Yes, Christianity is in a bad state right now due to us lacking backbones, rising anti-religious sentiment, apathy, corruption, out of control capitalism and consumerism, political correctness, a failure to educate and inspire the young in spiritual matters, etc. It's really sad.

 

[metis]

Nonsense. Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus identified as a Pharisee and His movement is always distinguished from them. Paul was a Pharisee until he converted. You cannot be a Pharisee and a follower of Christ.

It helps if one actually knows what the Pharisees in general were coming from versus the other groups: Pharisees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jesus was operating from a liberal Pharisee tradition, and that is for certain if the gospels are at all accurate. He used a commentary approach, went to synagogues, believed in heaven and hell, believed in righteousness over ritual, etc.-- all of which were found within that tradition but not necessarily in the others, or at least to the same extent.

And Paul upon arrest identifies himself as a Pharisee, so it would be pretty much illogical for him to admire Jesus' teachings if Jesus wasn't operating within that same general tradition.

The problem with many today is that they ignore the Judaism of Jesus' day and draw false conclusions, and my experience is that a great many of them simply have never spent much time studying Jewish theology.

One might also even check out this website written by Jews for Jesus: http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/v06-n03/jesusthepharisee

 

[Brickjectivity]

A book on Jesus, Pharisees etc. is The Jews in the Time of Jesus by Stephen Wylen. Its mass produced and can be found in libraries in Ohio and most other states. You can find it in your library using worldcat.org.