Miracles. Scientific Proof.

[YoursTrue]

"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also."
Mark Twain

Everything is in question. But some people make choices based on how they perceive things. As I have said more than once, I used to say there is no God because (1) I couldn't figure things out, (2) religion in general has made a mess of things. I examined various religions and nothing made sense to me but yes, I believe God reached me at last and showed me the 'way.' But obviously that is not everyone's experience.

 

[YoursTrue]

Know what? You should be more specific.
Know that jabs masks are useful: Majority medical opinion.
God did not / is not going to help us:
Total cases: 597,886,573, Deaths: 6,462,388
On top of it, God sent Monkeypox and Swine Flu (in India).

How do you know that God is not going to help us? See, that's what I want to know. Are you basing your opinion on statistics? (A lot of bad things happen.)
My question is: what do you think or expect a God should do about this, since you declare God is not going to help us. Do you think God should help us and in what way?
Remember -- from the beginning -- of the Bible's account whether you believe it or not -- God let Adam and Eve figure things out (right from wrong) for themselves since Eve decided that's what she wanted and Adam went along with her to go against God. So -- we're seeing the results of the millenia of men deciding for themselves to an extent.
P.S. I don't think God sent monkeypox and swine flu. Let's not leave out other miseries perpetrated not by viruses but by man going against man and inhumane acts by men. But getting back to monkeypox, etc., God allows it now. Just as He allows other things.

 

[Tiberius]

Then why are you on a discussion board? That what happens in these forms people talk.

They often provide sources to back up their claims too.

So when you say God has made world wide announcements, it's reasonable for people to ask for supporting evidence.

 

[Tiberius]

So your bias about what is valid should become a universal truth? I'll pass but thanks for playing

Nah, don't take my word for it. Study reality itself. Reality has no bias.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Maybe He knew the consequences of man living on their own after Adam and Eve? Have you ever read Matthew chapter 24 & 25?

I may have read it, I do not remember. But Hindu scriptures are sufficient for me. Useless things do not get registered in my mind.

 

[Aupmanyav]

My goodness!
I think having an animal is ok as long as a person takes care of it capably and kindly. I am saying it's hard to get some points across, dogs can get covid but they do not feel the "need" to train other canines to do scientific research on this. Try again. I am saying that they do not have the GENETIC CAPACITY to do this. ONLY HUMANS DO.
So let's go back to chimpanzees with that small difference of genetics from humans. Chimpanzees apparently do not feel the need to do scientific research to cope with their illnesses and train other chimpanzees to help them combat an illness. Do you think they do? My, this is a hard item to talk about, since it seems very hard for some to admit or acknowledge that the 2% or less difference between humans and chimpanzees makes a VAST difference of cognitive functioning and ability.
Taking treatment does NOT mean a person does not rely upon God. Is that what you think I believe? I rely upon God and take medical treatment when I deem warranted.

"Pets can get serious illness from infection with the virus that causes COVID-19, but this is extremely rare." What You Should Know about COVID-19 and Pets | Healthy Pets, Healthy People | CDC
The aboriginal tribes of the world also do not need modern science, not just the Chimps.
Simian Immunodeficiency Virus Infection of Chimpanzees
Why, with God helping you, would you need any kind of medication? Is God's help not sufficient?

Kindly make it a habit to check information before you post a message. It is so easy to check things on internet these days.

 

[Aupmanyav]

How do you know that God is not going to help us? See, that's what I want to know. Are you basing your opinion on statistics? (A lot of bad things happen.)
My question is: what do you think or expect a God should do about this, since you declare God is not going to help us. Do you think God should help us and in what way?
Remember -- from the beginning -- of the Bible's account whether you believe it or not -- God let Adam and Eve figure things out (right from wrong) for themselves since Eve decided that's what she wanted and Adam went along with her to go against God. So -- we're seeing the results of the millenia of men deciding for themselves to an extent.
P.S. I don't think God sent monkeypox and swine flu. Let's not leave out other miseries perpetrated not by viruses but by man going against man and inhumane acts by men. But getting back to monkeypox, etc., God allows it now. Just as He allows other things.

What should I base my view on, if not statistics? Bible or Quran? I gave you the statistics. If God's help leads to this kind of scenario, than it is no better than no help.
YHWH said only three or four generations. We find people suffering for 3000 or 4000 generations. YHWH was clearly lying to Moses.
I have not mentioned the natural calamities in the world brought on by God - Fires and floods, tornadoes and typhoons, earthquakes and tsunamies, God sure delights in sending trouble to humans all the time, to believers as well as non-believers. Unfortunately, believers make the bulk of people and they suffer. It is a sadist God.

 

[questfortruth]

The word violation is not necessarily the way others

God is the lawgiver. Hence, He can change the law or make exclusions from the law. This exclusion is a miracle. For example, a stone falls on the ground, not flying into the cosmos. Latter would be a miracle. People cannot walk on water because they have weight. Jesus Christ has walked on water; this is a miracle.

 

[joelr]

Much of that is true about faith healing, although people will contest that. I believe that a good attitude can help a person overcome obstacles, possibly even physical ailments to an extent. By the way--and I don't go to faith healers--do you think bonobos and gorillas have meetings of faith healing?

I think a good attitude helps in many ways.
I suspect that along the long line of hominids we would see more "ape" like behavior in the early species and late hominids like Heidelbergensis (the last before Homo Sapiens) probably had some types of rituals and superstitions. They did bury the dead.

 

[joelr]

1. That their is fraud does not mean the real thing does not exist.

No it means fraud exists in the field. Do you have any peer-reviewed papers that provide evidence for faith healing.
The article sourced 6 papers saying faith healing is not real.

2. The wholesale dismissing of history and records is not scientific though many here try to sell it as such.

There is a lot of history that has been dismissed among the general public.
The OT is largely influenced by Mesopotamian and other cultures.

The NT is Greek/Persian theology.
Savior deities that resurrected for the benefit of followers was already old by the time the Jewish religion started their story about one.

Nothing in scripture is historical if that is what you mean.

None of it.
Starting with the beginning -

Religion, Identity and the Origins of Ancient Israel

K.L. Sparks, Baptist Pastor, Professor Eastern U.

As a rule, modern scholars do not believe that the Bible's account of early Israel's history provides a wholly accurate portrait of Israel's origins. One reason for this is that the earliest part of Israel's history in Genesis is now regarded as something other than a work of modern history. Its primary author was at best an ancient historian (if a historian at all), who lived long after the events he narrated, and who drew freely from sources that were not historical (legends and theological stories); he was more concerned with theology than with the modern quest to learn 'what actually happened' (Van Seters 1992; Sparks 2002, pp. 37-71; Maidman 2003). As a result, the stories about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph are
..."

Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text

Genesis/Enuma Elish
The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis. Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.


Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer, translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.


Both Genesis and Enuma Elsih are religious texts which detail and celebrate cultural origins: Genesis describes the origin and founding of the Jewish people under the guidance of the Lord; Enuma Elish recounts the origin and founding of Babylon under the leadership of the god Marduk. Contained in each work is a story of how the cosmos and man were created. Each work begins by describing the watery chaos and primeval darkness that once filled the universe. Then light is created to replace the darkness. Afterward, the heavens are made and in them heavenly bodies are placed. Finally, man is created.


The Epic of Atraḥasis is the fullest Mesopotamian account of the Great Flood, with Atraḥasis in the role of Noah. It was written in the seventeenth century BCE

• The supreme god Enlil's decision to extinguish mankind by a Great Flood
• Atraḥasis is warned in a dream
• Enki explains the dream to Atraḥasis (and betrays the plan)
• Construction of the Ark
• Boarding of the Ark
• Departure
• The Great Flood

 

[KWED]

I have found (having been an atheist) that only God can bring you to Him.

What was the event/circumstance where you realised that god was bringing you to him, and how did that realisation manifest itself?

 

[KWED]

Still don't get my point? hmm that's surprising. (or not.) OK, let's start again and see if you understand exactly what I'm saying.
According to what I read so far, there is a very small difference of DNA between chimpanzees and humans. Do you understand that so far? (Let's start, as the song goes, at the very beginning)
"Chimpanzees are humans closest or not, ever since researchers sequenced the chimp genome in 2005, they've recognized that people share about 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees, making them our closest residing relatives. .... People didn't evolve from chimps, as is a frequent false impression."
99% of human DNA is "shared" with chimpanzees. Isn't that something? 99% but -- not all. And, of course, people, they say, did not evolve from chimps. But chimpanzees and humans share, it is claimed, about 99% of oiur DNA, according to that report.
Chimpanzees are Humans Closest Relatives or Not - Primates Park

Yes, humans and chimps have about 99%common DNA. We know that.
Both humans and chimps evolved from a common ancestor millions of years ago.
What is the point you are trying to make regarding those facts?

 

[KWED]

To deny evidence that you don't like and then say is no evidence its not a scientific practice.

There is no evidence that anyone has ever "risen from the dead" (ie. had zero life signs for some time, and then come back to life).
Anecdotes and ancient myths are not "evidence". Simply accepting them without any supporting evidence is not scientific practice - or rational or logical practice either.

 

[KWED]

Bibliophobia??

If you are claiming that the story in the Bible of Jesus' resurrection is evidence for Jesus' resurrection, there really isn't much anyone can do for you.
Although I do have a lovely bridge you might like to buy?

 

[questfortruth]

What was the event/circumstance where you realised that god was bringing you to him, and how did that realisation manifest itself?

We are lucky that no asteroid has killed humankind. And this luck will be forever, because universe needs intelligent observer. Us. Quantum Mechanics. Hence, Spirit of Luck is God, God is Luck.

 

[KWED]

I don't know I've got a bachelors and masters degree.

Not in any science based subject

What I see here often is a cult of scienceism vs people who actually have the foggiest about how science works

Demanding evidence before accepting extraordinary claims is not "sciencism" [sic]. It is called "critical thinking". Surprised they didn't teach you that during under- and postgrad studies. Were your degrees from a mail-order, religious college?

 

[KWED]

well, according to what you seem to be saying, gorillas and chimpanzees do NOT have a need for cars to go from place to place quickly (?), they can swing capably from trees. So they have no desire to invent them, I suppose you think? They also have no desire, according to your theory, to write music or publish newspapers.

Homo sapiens did none of those things for the vast majority of their existence.
Did you have a point?

 

[KWED]

Actually no, given the extremely limited records of the time. Lets be honest if CNN and the Dem's had their way they would delete Trump from ever being president from every history book. People tend to not want information around they dislike.

Why do you think that Josephus and Tacitus were anti-Jesus? If they were, surely they just wouldn't have mentioned him at all. Josephus had an interest in the afterlife and reincarnation, so he would have been more likely to mention the resurrection.
And your point about non-Republican records deleting Trump is typical cry-baby stuff one would expect from him. A nonsense argument with no foundation. CNN do have their way on what they report, and they still report on events during Trumps presidency.

BTW John was a first hand witness to the events. Most other writers of the NT were 2nd hand, but not all

It is not established that the Gospel of John was written by the "disciple John". It is generally accepted that all four had anonymous authors.

 

[KWED]

Congratulations you can fail to function well like others

You are really struggling now.

 

[KWED]

I did something similar but not in college because I did not believe in God when I was in college. So I believed whatever they taught me about evolution because I thought at the time they really "knew." I learned later of the dismissal by publishers of those with whom they did not agree or would be popular.

Wait.
Are you claiming that you have discovered that evolution is a hoax?!
Do explain, and win your Nobel Prize.