Mithras the true Savior

[mycorrhiza]

I am here to enquire about the probability that Jesus is just simply stolen from the pagan concept of Mithras. Personally, after research all one has to do is see that Christainity came from the pagan Mithras.

Mithras offered and had all of the concepts before Christianity came about. So was Christianity simple stolen?

Does this research consist of watching Zeitgeist?

*Mithras was not born of a virgin, but rather of a rock (which would require a very loose definition of what a virgin is).
*There is no evidence supporting that Mithras had 12 apostles.
*December 25th is not connected to Mithras (nor was it originally connected to Jesus).
*As far as I know there's no belief that Mithras died and was ressurected.

Christianity has borrowed from paganism many times (like Christmas), but copying Mithras to make Jesus is not one of these. If Christians were going to make things up about Jesus, then what stops them from being original? Scientology is completely made up, yet is quite original.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am here to enquire about the probability that Jesus is just simply stolen from the pagan concept of Mithras.

"probability" ? :biglaugh:

Let me guess: you read it on the internet and therefore it's probably true?

Edited to add:

• Mithras in comparison with other belief systems
• The Roman Cult Of Mithras

... not that it will help.

 

[Shermana]

I am here to enquire about the probability that Jesus is just simply stolen from the pagan concept of Mithras. Personally, after research all one has to do is see that Christainity came from the pagan Mithras.

Mithras offered and had all of the concepts before Christianity came about. So was Christianity simple stolen?

Examples please, with sources and links, thanks. No Zeitgeist! (And if you do present Zeitgeist, I will present 10 links debunking it and proving that it's full of lies that cannot be substantiated.)

 

[SonofSonofGod]

Examples please, with sources and links, thanks. No Zeitgeist! (And if you do present Zeitgeist, I will present 10 links debunking it and proving that it's full of lies that cannot be substantiated.)

I watched Zeitgeist and while it was a good movie for most of the things it said were true. It's debunking religion section was extremely biased. The Cult of Mithras was a diversion split of from the Truth but it was not the Truth itself.

Some traditions in Christianity have no place in the lives of Christians. Jesus never said to celebrate his birthday nor to give gifts on his birthday nor was his Birthday December 25th like some claim as he was born on the Jewish New Year which always falls in September or October since the Jewish calendar always has leap years periodically which include leap months but I don't remember how exactly it works Jewish people are better at explaining that stuff then I am.

People have always tried to mix paganism and Christianity clear example is the perpetual Virgin doctrine which is 100% pagan in nature. As well as Trinity doctrine is Pagan as well as it says there are 3 parts of God yet there in reality are only two parts of God. The 'Holy Spirit' and God are one in the same and there is no difference between either God nor the Holy Spirit so separating God from the Holy Spirit is a misnomer and stems from a critical misunderstanding of who God is.

 

[Ouroboros]

I am here to enquire about the probability that Jesus is just simply stolen from the pagan concept of Mithras. Personally, after research all one has to do is see that Christainity came from the pagan Mithras.

Mithras offered and had all of the concepts before Christianity came about. So was Christianity simple stolen?

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they got ideas from a common source?

One possible with "Mithras first, Jesus second" is that (if I remember this right and not bothering to look it up ), the evidence for the Mithras cult suggests it to be later in time, like 2nd century or so. (But I could be wrong of course.)

It is also possible that Mithras was taken from an earlier "Mithra" (no "s") belief (Zoroastrianism). Mitra was some kind of judge or angel sent by Ahura Mazda. (I think). Look into that one and see what pops up.

---

Reading a little about Mithra (not Mithras), the name in vedic means something like "covenant" or "cause to bind". I'd say it sounds similar to redemption or the idea of reconnecting with God. Hmmm...

Also Mithra and Mithras were considered shepherds.

 

[Ouroboros]

Boo-hoo! How do you think we Hindus feel when no one gives us credit for having the original and true Mithras, aka MITRA?

If you were to transliterate my profile name it would read as "Maitra-Varunih" which would mean "Of Lord Shri Mitra and Lord Shri Varuna".

The Vedo-Indic compound "Mitra-Varuna" is older than Mithra (Zoroastrian, this one has an "h" after the "t") and Mithras (the Zoroastrian derived Romanic cult).

Right. I just saw some articles with the connection between Mithra (Zoroastrian) and Mithras (Roman).

Interesting stuff. Then you can confirm or correct if it's true that it could mean "covenant" or maybe even "savior"? Perhaps that's a stretch, but I'm just curious.

 

[Ouroboros]

Actually that is not correct. It was around long before Christianity, even if you don't trace it back to the ancient East .

...

Obviously the church fathers knew Mithras was before Christianity.
...

Ah. It shows that I was wrong in my first claim that Mithras was newer than Christianity. Good to know.

 

[Ouroboros]

It might be possible, but Mithra is one of the Adityas and is referred as sun god in ancient vedic texts!

Isn't there even some icons/images where Mithras has a halo?

 

[Ouroboros]

Does this research consist of watching Zeitgeist?

*Mithras was not born of a virgin, but rather of a rock (which would require a very loose definition of what a virgin is).
*There is no evidence supporting that Mithras had 12 apostles.
*December 25th is not connected to Mithras (nor was it originally connected to Jesus).
*As far as I know there's no belief that Mithras died and was ressurected.

Christianity has borrowed from paganism many times (like Christmas), but copying Mithras to make Jesus is not one of these. If Christians were going to make things up about Jesus, then what stops them from being original? Scientology is completely made up, yet is quite original.

I totally agree with that. There are many religious ideas floating around and there will be influences and borrowing all around. No religion is based solely on one other, but tends to start with some unique ideas and then the old ideas make their way in and merges, depending on background and culture of the participants.

Just look at Realians, the UFO "religion" that's grown the last 10-20 years. Quite a bit of ideas in there come from existing religions. In essence, they believe religions were inspired by aliens, so of course the past religious ideas will be re-introduced into the new religion.

 

[Riverwolf]

I watched Zeitgeist and while it was a good movie for most of the things it said were true. It's debunking religion section was extremely biased.

I understand the entire movie was pretty much bunk.

 

[Ouroboros]

I just read about that Mithraism had baptism (ritual bath) and sharing bread ("bread and cup of water") initiations. And also that Christianity and Mithraism were competing for the religious scene. They had differences and similarities, and eventually Mithraism was banned. Even if they weren't necessarily based on each other, they still had similarities that show some underlying concept of belief.

 

[Ouroboros]

I understand the entire movie was pretty much bunk.

I remember watching that movie years ago and was amazed. Then I looked into some of the claims and did a little research myself... not everything was accurate in the movie. It bugged me quite a bit. With that said though, some things are true, not everything is bunk. There are similarities between many of these religions. It doesn't mean they "borrowed from one or the other" but rather that culturally people had certain expectations and ideas of what and how a religion should be, and if they converted, some ideas wouldn't easily go away but rather be incorporated in their new belief. Our experiences and opinions do color the painting of faith we're making. Preferences won't die easily.

 

[Riverwolf]

I remember watching that movie years ago and was amazed. Then I looked into some of the claims and did a little research myself... not everything was accurate in the movie. It bugged me quite a bit. With that said though, some things are true, not everything is bunk. There are similarities between many of these religions. It doesn't mean they "borrowed from one or the other" but rather that culturally people had certain expectations and ideas of what and how a religion should be, and if they converted, some ideas wouldn't easily go away but rather be incorporated in their new belief. Our experiences and opinions do color the painting of faith we're making. Preferences won't die easily.

Well, that's just a given. But I also understand that that wasn't the movie's thesis.

Most of these bunk documentaries do contain some things that are true, but as far as I can tell, this particular film has about the same amount of credibility as Ancient Aliens.

 

[SonofSonofGod]

Actually that is not correct. It was around long before Christianity, even if you don't trace it back to the ancient East .

“The devil led the heathen to anticipate Christ with respect to several things, as the mysteries of the Eucharistetc. "And this very solemnity (says St. Justin the evil spirit introduced into the mysteries of Mithra." (Reeves, Justin, p. 86)

"Therefore some spirit or other contrived the COUNTERFEIT that His image should be bought for blood, because he knew that the human race WAS AT SOME TIME to be redeemed by the precious blood. For evil spirits counterfeit certain shadows of honor to themselves, that they may deceive those who follow Christ.” Augustine

Obviously the church fathers knew Mithras was before Christianity.


The ancient historian Plutarch mentioned Mithraism in connection with the pirates of Cilicia in Asia Minor encountering the Roman general Pompey in 67 BC.

Tertullian –Praescr, ch 40 - says that the followers of Mithra practiced baptism by water, and made a sign on the forehead of the baptized person.

He appears to have lived an incarnate life on earth, and in some unknown manner to have suffered death for the good of mankind, an image symbolizing his resurrection being employed in his ceremonies. Tertullian, Praescr, ch. 40.

*

Well I did some more research and it seems like Mithras was the Sun in ancient times. And was indeed worshiped even pre-flood (22nd century B.C.) as I believe Horus and later on in Elijah's time as Baal in the 8th Century B.C. and Even during the time of Moses during their whole Golden Calf debacle in the 13th Century B.C. So it's easy to say that the legend of Mithras or the Sun God has been around since at least 4 thousand years in some form or other.

Baal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[outhouse]

not everything is bunk.

Most of it is.

I have debated the author and she is not really honest.

She uses old sources and decieves people by making it sound in context to different dates.


Much of her sources were from the 1800's and your seeing quite a bit of fabrication on her part.

 

[Ouroboros]

Well I did some more research and it seems like Mithras was the Sun in ancient times. And was indeed worshiped even pre-flood (22nd century B.C.) as I believe Horus and later on in Elijah's time as Baal in the 8th Century B.C. and Even during the time of Moses during their whole Golden Calf debacle in the 13th Century B.C. So it's easy to say that the legend of Mithras or the Sun God has been around since at least 4 thousand years in some form or other.

Baal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry, but I have a hard time connecting Ball with Mithras.

And with the golden calf, I suspect (my own hypothesis here) that there was a "calf" god cult at some point, and perhaps Mithras depicted as slaying the ox was a symbol of replacing the calf-god. "Mithras is stronger than the ox/calf and is slaying it." So it wouldn't make them same, in my opinion.

 

[outhouse]

it seems like Mithras was the Sun in ancient times.

You have made no such case, nor can you.

 

[outhouse]

Sorry, but I have a hard time connecting Ball with Mithras.

And with the golden calf, I suspect (my own hypothesis here) that there was a "calf" god cult at some point, and perhaps Mithras depicted as slaying the ox was a symbol of replacing the calf-god. "Mithras is stronger than the ox/calf and is slaying it." So it wouldn't make them same, in my opinion.

Research El for the bull conection

 

[SonofSonofGod]

Most of it is.

I have debated the author and she is not really honest.

She uses old sources and decieves people by making it sound in context to different dates.


Much of her sources were from the 1800's and your seeing quite a bit of fabrication on her part.

The Cult of Mithras sprung during the Acts of the Apostles which was around 30-90 A.D. However the Cult of Mithras was based on the teachings of the Alexandrians which argues over Paul's teaching and said some rather bizarre stuff as is documented in the Bible.

This letter is not included in the Bible as it refers to Enoch directly and for some odd reason the book of Enoch was also cut from the Bible.

The Letter of Paul to the Alexandrians
1 Brethren, we that are under the power of the YHWH ought to keep the commandments of God. 2 Those who keep the precepts of YHWH have eternal life, and they that deny His commandments bring upon themselves ruin and guide their own path to the second death.
3 Now the precepts of YHWH are these: do not swear falsely, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not bear false witness, do not take gifts against the truth, nor be bribed for power. 4 Whoever has power and denies the truth will be denied entrance to the Kingdom of God, and will be trodden down into hell, from which he will never come forth from again.
5 We are frail and deceitful, workers of sin! 6 We do not repent daily, yet daily we commit sin upon sin! 6 In this you may know, dearly beloved brethren, that our works are judged. 7 Hearken therefore to that which is written in this book: “It will be for a memorial against us in the day of judgment.” (Enoch 96:4)
8 There will be neither witnesses nor companions, nor will judgment be given by gifts, for there is nothing better than faith, truth, chastity, fasting, and charitable giving, which covers all sins.
9 Those things which you would not have done to yourself, do not do to another.
10 Come together for the Kingdom of God, and you will receive the crown which is in Yeshua the Messiah, our Master.

 

[Riverwolf]

From what I understand, Mithra the Roman God was only peripherally related to Mitra the Vedic/Avestan God, if they were related at all except in name, so I don't regard them as the same.