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Mithras the true Savior

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Most of it is.
Perhaps. I can't say because I haven't watched it in years now. And I think the one I saw was a first version and some things were edited out in later editions, based on what I've heard.

I have debated the author and she is not really honest.
Yeah. I don't like her. I've listened to some debates with her and meh... too pushy.

You debated her in a public setting or more private? If there's a transcript, it would be interesting to read. :) If you don't, it's okay too.

She uses old sources and decieves people by making it sound in context to different dates.
And some of the "facts" aren't correct. Very stretched interpretations. Like the virgin birth of Mithras for instance, or the 12 disciples. Mithras was born out of a rock, and there are 12 divine/heavenly symbols connected to Mithras, but not disciples.

Much of her sources were from the 1800's and your seeing quite a bit of fabrication on her part.
I noticed some of that too.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
And some of the "facts" aren't correct. Very stretched interpretations. Like the virgin birth of Mithras for instance, or the 12 disciples. Mithras was born out of a rock, and there are 12 divine/heavenly symbols connected to Mithras, but not disciples.

Which doesn't indicate direct connection, since 3 is kind of a ... "sacred" number in many traditions (if you can call it "sacred"), and traditions all over the world have numbers that are multiples of 3.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Research El for the bull conection
Not sure how I see the connection between El or Baal or golden calf and Mithras?

I found that El was symbolized by a bull. That makes sense.

Still, since Mithras is depicted slaying a bull, would the bull and Mithras be the same? Mithras is slaying himself? Is that the symbolic meaning of it?
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Which doesn't indicate direct connection, since 3 is kind of a ... "sacred" number in many traditions (if you can call it "sacred"), and traditions all over the world have numbers that are multiples of 3.
It's an underlying connection, yes. Not direct though, agree, but indirectly. A common/shared connection.

In other words, Mithras cult didn't give birth to Christian cult, but both got ideas from common sources and beliefs that predates both.

12 signs, symbols, disciples, and so on is a common motif, because of the importance of the number, for sure. It's easier to divide 12 into parts, in 3s, 4s, halves, than 10 is.

I think many cultures had a base of 12 in ancient times for that reason.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Not sure how I see the connection between El or Baal or golden calf and Mithras?

I found that El was symbolized by a bull. That makes sense.

Still, since Mithras is depicted slaying a bull, would the bull and Mithras be the same? Mithras is slaying himself? Is that the symbolic meaning of it?

There is no connection to mithras and the bull/calf of Moses

There is however a connection between Moses bull and El in my opinion. One doesnt need to look 500 years later at mithras just because they used a bull in one aspect of their mythology.
 
Not sure how I see the connection between El or Baal or golden calf and Mithras?

I found that El was symbolized by a bull. That makes sense.

Still, since Mithras is depicted slaying a bull, would the bull and Mithras be the same? Mithras is slaying himself? Is that the symbolic meaning of it?

It's all Astronomy. If you read old text Venus and Mars were visible in the Sky and they overlapped creating a visual sensation that looked like a Bull during the time of the Israelites. This apparition also had what looked like a Cosmic Wheel which looks like the Star of David. The legend goes that when the Bull disappeared from the Sky the Warrior God Mithra's slayed the Bull which then turned for the visual apparition from the Star of David to the pagan Symbol of the Star with a circle around it. It seems like almost all mythology stems from observing the Sky which is why all the ancient Gods used bolts of lightning or hammers as hammers make a thundering noise when hitting metal.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
The bull is also a pretty common motif in various religions. The Vedic God Rudra is connected with bulls. The Aurochs (an extinct species of cow) has its very own Rune. The Greeks identified the constellation Taurus.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
There is no connection to mithras and the bull/calf of Moses
That's why I said it was my personal hypothesis. It was just my own little speculation. :)

There is however a connection between Moses bull and El in my opinion. One doesnt need to look 500 years later at mithras just because they used a bull in one aspect of their mythology.

The astrological age of Taurus ended some 2,000 BCE. I wonder if the golden calf (my speculation again) could have been related.

2,000 BCE to 1-100 CE was age of Aries, and I saw somewhere that a philosopher (Porphyry) saw a connection between Aries and Mithras.

1-100 CE until now, age of pisces.

It's just how I see it, and it's hard to get rid of idea that there's a correlation.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
The bull is also a pretty common motif in various religions. The Vedic God Rudra is connected with bulls. The Aurochs (an extinct species of cow) has its very own Rune. The Greeks identified the constellation Taurus.
The Greeks might have gotten the idea from the earlier societies too. The Babylonians had the bull (steer of heaven, or something), if I understand it right.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
The Greeks might have gotten the idea from the earlier societies too. The Babylonians had the bull (steer of heaven, or something), if I understand it right.

I suspect it has something to do with the importance of cows in agriculture and animal husbandry, upon which most societies depend and from which they derive.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
Right. I just saw some articles with the connection between Mithra (Zoroastrian) and Mithras (Roman).

Interesting stuff. Then you can confirm or correct if it's true that it could mean "covenant" or maybe even "savior"? Perhaps that's a stretch, but I'm just curious.

(when you say "savior", do you mean in an Abrahamic sense?)

Namaste,

Lord Shri Mitra lauded in the Vedic texts of Hinduism bears an etymological resemblance to His counterparts: the Zoroastrian Mithra and Romanic Mithras. But, divinity-wise, Lord Shri Mitra is much different and more complex.

The Proto-Indo-Iranian Mitra was the binder of contracts; he was the one two opposing sides would invoke during treaties. The Proto-Iranic Mitra (still spelled this way) carried that feature over and just like the Vedic Mitra was a solar deity also. Then, what I would like to refer to as the "insurrection" happened. With the advent of Zoroastrianism, the polytheism of pre-Zoroastrian Iran altered into an almost monotheistic like setting. The deity in question became Mithra (notice the addition of the letter "h"). This Mithra became an Amesha Spenta (the Zoroastrian concept of "angels"), no longer a deity in his own right.

But, the Hindu Mitra still remained the same and was still a beast and awesome and wonderful! Muahahaha! On a later date, much after the revelation of the Shri Shruti Vedas, Lord Shri Mitra along with various other Vedic solar deities were conglomerated into Lord Shri Sūrya (even though Sūrya as a separate solar deity still existed). The worship of Lord Shri Mitra still takes place in India. Pretty awesome, eh? You have the Mitra Puja (also known as Mitrotsavam) along with the recitation of Lord Shri Savitur (a different form of Lord Shri Mitra) through the Maha-mantra known as the Gayatri.

The major difference is, Lord Shri Mitra, unlike the "corrupted" ones of the Zoroastrians and the Romans (which would be Mithras - with both an "h" and an "s"), is often invoked in the Shri Rig Veda alongside Lord Shri Varuna. Lord Shri Varuna is the dispeller of lawlessness, while Lord Shri Mitra dispels ignorance and unreality. They are the upholders of Satya (reality/truth) and Rta (order of that reality), respectively.

M.V.


EDIT: I don't know too much about the Romanic Mithras, but I have ordered the book recommended by Jayhawker to learn more. Sorry I couldn't be of much help when it came to the Romanic Mithras.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
The astrological age of Taurus ended some 2,000 BCE. I wonder if the golden calf (my speculation again) could have been related.
.

Not at all.

Where the astrological nonsense is perverted, is to think that all early cultures defined this the same way, and communicated this knowledge to one another. They did not.


We find the bull and El in use in Mesopotamian and Canaanite and levantine religions. This was very popular from 2000 BC to 600 BC ish, so much for any connection to astrology what so ever.



2,000 BCE to 1-100 CE was age of Aries, and I saw somewhere that a philosopher (Porphyry) saw a connection between Aries and Mithras.

1-100 CE until now, age of pisces.

It's just how I see it, and it's hard to get rid of idea that there's a correlation

Asrology was not universal, in that respect. If you started hunting down correct real information, you could see exactly how bad achyra s has perverted what is really known.

Different cultures used astrology many different ways then the what greek version your using that is all based on specualion.

Case in point, did nomadic people 12,000 years ago who startyed agriculture, know these symbols? Nope not in any concept. And if you look at 4000 years ago, they didnt exist as written. Look for the origin of these greek symbols, and that is the origin of what is being perverted that doesnt apply to all.
 

Shermana

Heretic
I watched Zeitgeist and while it was a good movie for most of the things it said were true. It's debunking religion section was extremely biased. The Cult of Mithras was a diversion split of from the Truth but it was not the Truth itself.

Some traditions in Christianity have no place in the lives of Christians. Jesus never said to celebrate his birthday nor to give gifts on his birthday nor was his Birthday December 25th like some claim as he was born on the Jewish New Year which always falls in September or October since the Jewish calendar always has leap years periodically which include leap months but I don't remember how exactly it works Jewish people are better at explaining that stuff then I am.

People have always tried to mix paganism and Christianity clear example is the perpetual Virgin doctrine which is 100% pagan in nature. As well as Trinity doctrine is Pagan as well as it says there are 3 parts of God yet there in reality are only two parts of God. The 'Holy Spirit' and God are one in the same and there is no difference between either God nor the Holy Spirit so separating God from the Holy Spirit is a misnomer and stems from a critical misunderstanding of who God is.

I most certainly agree with you on the issue that the Trinity and Holidays like Christmas are blatant heretical deviations from the original doctrine of the Nazarene sect that was invented later to please potential converts.

However, even on the economics portion, I'd say Zeitgeist is more flashy conspiracy theory than sound philosophy. I wouldn't hesitate to say its religion section is about equally credulous as the rest of it.
 
Actually that is not correct. It was around long before Christianity, even if you don't trace it back to the ancient East .

All of the archaeology for Mithras dates from 100 AD or later; and the archaeology is our best source for the cult.

All of the literary sources date from 80 AD or later. Plutarch, writing around 100 AD, says that the Cilician pirates of 68 BC worshipped Mithras. But since he is writing 168 years later, scholars tend to suspect that he got confused with Zoroastrian Mithra, who was worshipped in that area and time period in Asia Minor. After all, Mithras claimed to be the Persian god. It is the archaeology -- mainly Latin, not even Greek -- that reveals that the cult must in fact be a Roman invention.

“The devil led the heathen to anticipate Christ with respect to several things, as the mysteries of the Eucharistetc. "And this very solemnity (says St. Justin the evil spirit introduced into the mysteries of Mithra." (Reeves, Justin, p. 86)

This is a strange 'quote'. Here's what Justin says (1st Apology, ch. 66):

'For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; "and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood; "and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.'

"Therefore some spirit or other contrived the COUNTERFEIT that His image should be bought for blood, because he knew that the human race WAS AT SOME TIME to be redeemed by the precious blood. For evil spirits counterfeit certain shadows of honor to themselves, that they may deceive those who follow Christ.” Augustine

Obviously the church fathers knew Mithras was before Christianity.

Not from this.

The ancient historian Plutarch mentioned Mithraism in connection with the pirates of Cilicia in Asia Minor encountering the Roman general Pompey in 67 BC.

True: see above. But there is no archaeology in Cilicia for Mithras earlier than the imperial period, so clearly there is a problem with Plutarch's testimony.

Tertullian –Praescr, ch 40 - says that the followers of Mithra practiced baptism by water, and made a sign on the forehead of the baptized person.

The name "Mithras" in this passage may be spurious, since the passage makes more sense if it is omitted. Ritual washings were common in antiquity, and nothing may be inferred from them.

He appears to have lived an incarnate life on earth, and in some unknown manner to have suffered death for the good of mankind, an image symbolizing his resurrection being employed in his ceremonies. Tertullian, Praescr, ch. 40.

*

This is not a quotation from Tertullian, who actually says:

"The question will arise, By whom is to be interpreted the sense of the passages which make for heresies? By the devil, of course, to whom pertain those wiles which pervert the truth, and who, by the mystic rites of his idols, vies even with the essential portions of the sacraments of God. He, too, baptizes some-that is, his own believers and faithful followers; he promises the putting away of sins by a layer (of his own); and if my memory still serves me, Mithras there, (in the kingdom of Satan,) sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers; celebrates also the oblation of bread, and introduces an image of a resurrection, and before a sword wreathes a crown. What also must we say to (Satan's) limiting his chief priest to a single marriage? He, too, has his virgins; he, too, has his proficients in continence."

Mithras was a god, not a man, and was not "incarnate" and did not "die".

You can obtain all the literary and quite a lot of archaeological sources from here:

The Roman cult of Mithras

All the best,

Roger Pearse
 
Isn't there even some icons/images where Mithras has a halo?
Yes, just Google "Mithras with sun halo," then click "images."
*

Interesting: because I'm not seeing any. Sol, the sun, wearing a rayed crown ... yes. There might be some image somewhere that has Mithras wearing the sun crown. But a halo? Where?
 
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