Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
The early church fathers themselves tell us Mithras worship was in place before Christianity.
And it traces back to the ancient East - as does the origins of the Hebrew people according to ancient historians.
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Mithras the true Savior
- Thread starter yoda89
- Start date
The early church fathers themselves tell us Mithras worship was in place before Christianity.
And it traces back to the ancient East - as does the origins of the Hebrew people according to ancient historians.
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outhouse
Atheistically
outhouse
Atheistically
Mithraic mysteries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Beginnings of Roman Mithraism[edit source | edit]
The origins and spread of the Mysteries have been intensely debated among scholars and there are radically differing views on these issues.[109] According to Clauss mysteries of Mithras were not practiced until the 1st century AD.[110] According to Ulansey, the earliest evidence for the Mithraic mysteries places their appearance in the middle of the 1st century BC: the historian Plutarch says that in 67 BC the pirates of Cilicia (a province on the southeastern coast of Asia Minor) were practicing "secret rites" of Mithras.[111] However, according to Daniels, whether any of this relates to the origins of the mysteries is unclear.[112] The unique underground temples or Mithraea appear suddenly in the archaeology in the last quarter of the 1st century AD.[113]
Earliest archaeology[edit source | edit]
Inscriptions and monuments related to the Mithraic Mysteries are catalogued in a two volume work by Maarten J. Vermaseren, the Corpus Inscriptionum et Monumentorum Religionis Mithriacae (or CIMRM).[114] The earliest monument showing Mithras slaying the bull is thought to be CIMRM 593, found in Rome. There is no date, but the inscription tells us that it was dedicated by a certain Alcimus, steward of T. Claudius Livianus. Vermaseren and Gordon believe that this Livianus is a certain Livianus who was commander of the Praetorian guard in 101 AD, which would give an earliest date of 98-99 AD.[115]
Votive altar from Alba Iulia in present-day Romania, dedicated to Invicto Mythrae in fulfillment of a vow (votum)
Five small terracotta plaques of a figure holding a knife over a bull have been excavated near Kerch in the Crimea, dated by Beskow and Clauss to the second half of the 1st century BC,[116] and by Beck to 50 BC-50 AD. These may be the earliest tauroctonies, if they are accepted to be a depiction of Mithras.[117] The bull-slaying figure wears a Phrygian cap, but is described by Beck and Beskow as otherwise unlike standard depictions of the tauroctony. Another reason for not connecting these artifacts with the Mithraic Mysteries is that the first of these plaques was found in a woman's tomb.[118]
An altar or block from near SS. Pietro e Marcellino on the Esquiline in Rome was inscribed with a bilingual inscription by an Imperial freedman named T. Flavius Hyginus, probably between 80-100 AD. It is dedicated to Sol Invictus Mithras.[119]
CIMRM 2268 is a broken base or altar from Novae/Steklen in Moesia Inferior, dated 100 AD, showing Cautes and Cautopates.
Other early archaeology includes the Greek inscription from Venosia by Sagaris actor probably from 100150 AD; the Sidon cippus dedicated by Theodotus priest of Mithras to Asclepius, 140-141 AD; and the earliest military inscription, by C. Sacidius Barbarus, centurion of XV Apollinaris, from the bank of the Danube at Carnuntum, probably before 114 AD.[120]
According to C.M.Daniels, the Carnuntum inscription is the earliest Mithraic dedication from the Danube region, which along with Italy is one of the two regions where Mithraism first struck root.[121] The earliest dateable Mithraeum outside Rome dates from 148 AD.[122] The Mithraeum at Caesarea Maritima is the only one in Palestine and the date is inferred.[123]
Beginnings of Roman Mithraism[edit source | edit]
The origins and spread of the Mysteries have been intensely debated among scholars and there are radically differing views on these issues.[109] According to Clauss mysteries of Mithras were not practiced until the 1st century AD.[110] According to Ulansey, the earliest evidence for the Mithraic mysteries places their appearance in the middle of the 1st century BC: the historian Plutarch says that in 67 BC the pirates of Cilicia (a province on the southeastern coast of Asia Minor) were practicing "secret rites" of Mithras.[111] However, according to Daniels, whether any of this relates to the origins of the mysteries is unclear.[112] The unique underground temples or Mithraea appear suddenly in the archaeology in the last quarter of the 1st century AD.[113]
Earliest archaeology[edit source | edit]
Inscriptions and monuments related to the Mithraic Mysteries are catalogued in a two volume work by Maarten J. Vermaseren, the Corpus Inscriptionum et Monumentorum Religionis Mithriacae (or CIMRM).[114] The earliest monument showing Mithras slaying the bull is thought to be CIMRM 593, found in Rome. There is no date, but the inscription tells us that it was dedicated by a certain Alcimus, steward of T. Claudius Livianus. Vermaseren and Gordon believe that this Livianus is a certain Livianus who was commander of the Praetorian guard in 101 AD, which would give an earliest date of 98-99 AD.[115]
Votive altar from Alba Iulia in present-day Romania, dedicated to Invicto Mythrae in fulfillment of a vow (votum)
Five small terracotta plaques of a figure holding a knife over a bull have been excavated near Kerch in the Crimea, dated by Beskow and Clauss to the second half of the 1st century BC,[116] and by Beck to 50 BC-50 AD. These may be the earliest tauroctonies, if they are accepted to be a depiction of Mithras.[117] The bull-slaying figure wears a Phrygian cap, but is described by Beck and Beskow as otherwise unlike standard depictions of the tauroctony. Another reason for not connecting these artifacts with the Mithraic Mysteries is that the first of these plaques was found in a woman's tomb.[118]
An altar or block from near SS. Pietro e Marcellino on the Esquiline in Rome was inscribed with a bilingual inscription by an Imperial freedman named T. Flavius Hyginus, probably between 80-100 AD. It is dedicated to Sol Invictus Mithras.[119]
CIMRM 2268 is a broken base or altar from Novae/Steklen in Moesia Inferior, dated 100 AD, showing Cautes and Cautopates.
Other early archaeology includes the Greek inscription from Venosia by Sagaris actor probably from 100150 AD; the Sidon cippus dedicated by Theodotus priest of Mithras to Asclepius, 140-141 AD; and the earliest military inscription, by C. Sacidius Barbarus, centurion of XV Apollinaris, from the bank of the Danube at Carnuntum, probably before 114 AD.[120]
According to C.M.Daniels, the Carnuntum inscription is the earliest Mithraic dedication from the Danube region, which along with Italy is one of the two regions where Mithraism first struck root.[121] The earliest dateable Mithraeum outside Rome dates from 148 AD.[122] The Mithraeum at Caesarea Maritima is the only one in Palestine and the date is inferred.[123]
outhouse
Atheistically
Neither copied one another.
There are very few similarities, and those that are perverted are minor in context to the whole religion.
Poeticus
| abhyAvartin |
It is easy to understand that one may come to that conclusion, but upon more in-depth research, one can conclude (academically) safely that Zoroastrian's Mithra comes from the Proto-Indo-Iranic -Mitra (to bind).
The Vedic Mitra and the Proto-Iranic (Pre-Zoroastrian Iran) Mitra come from that Proto-Indo-Iranic -Mitra.
The Romanic Mithras, on the other hand, comes from Zoroastrian Mithra.
Mitra = Vedic Hindu, Proto-Indo-Iranian, Proto-Iranian
Mithra = Zoroastrian (post-proto-Iranian)
Mithras = Romanic
EDIT: Some of the attributes given to Mithras by the Romans of the Mithraic Cult and some of the attributes given to Mithra by the Zoroastrians would have enraged the Vedic Seers of Ancient Hinduism as well as the Pre-Avestan (or I should say "pre-Gathic") Priests of Pre-Zoroastrian Iran. For example, the trait attributed to Mithras (as well as Mithra) about killing a bull would have made the Vedic Seers go bonkers: it would have been very "sacrilegious" for that would have been insulting the Vedic deity known as Lord Shri Pushan - the Mighty Bull. Thus, here lies one of the more vivid differences between Hinduism's Lord Shri Mitra and Mithra (and Mithras). Etymologically they are related, but conceptually and religiously they are miles and miles apart. The Hindu belief of Satya, which Lord Shri Mitra embodies and personifies (as per [according to] Shri Shruti Rig Veda), is non-evident (lacking) in Mithras of the Mithraic (Roman) Cult as well as in Mithra of Zoroastrianism.
EDIT#2: Lord Shri Mitra in the Shri Shruti Rig Veda is sometimes referred to as an Asura (not to be confused with Classical Sanskritic Asura) as well as a Maha-Aditya: a great solar deity - he was one of many Sun Gods of early Hinduism, after all. This reference establishes Lord Shri Mitra as one of the older set of Hindu Gods, along with Lord Shri Varuna, Lord Shri Agni, and Lord Shri Pushan.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
The Sun halo is the origin of the halo.
Even the Hebrew are originally a sun cult, and many of the verses in the Tanakh show this.
The spiked sun halo is shown to this day in Eastern Orthodox Christian art.
"Several lines of evidence, both archaeological and biblical, bear witness to a close relationship between Yahweh and the sun. The nature of that association is such that often a 'solar' character was presumed for Yahweh. Indeed, at many points the sun actually represented Yahweh as a kind of 'icon.' Thus, in at least the vast majority of cases, biblical passages which refer to sun worship in Israel do not refer to a foreign phenomenon borrowed by idolatrous Israelites, but to a Yahwistic phenomenon which Deuteronomistic theology came to look upon as idolatrous.... an association between Yahweh and the sun was not limited to one or two obscure contexts, but was remarkably well integrated into the religion of ancient Israel." - Taylor, Glen, Yahweh and the Sun: Biblical and Archaeological Evidence for Sun Worship in Ancient Israel
Jer 8:1-2 "At that time, says the LORD, the bones of the kings of Judah, the bones of its princes, the bones of the priests, the bones of the prophets, and the bones of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be brought out of their tombs; And they shall spread them before the sun, and the moon, and all the host of heaven, whom they have loved, and whom they have served, and after whom they have walked, and whom they have sought, and whom they have worshipped: they shall not be gathered, nor be buried; they shall be for dung upon the face of the earth."
Psalms 84:11 For a Sun and Shield is YHVH Elohiym; beauty and splendor gives he YHVH, and does not withhold prosperity from those who walk in integrity.
THE PRACTICAL BIBLE DICTIONARY, SUN; The greater light, Gen. 1:15-18. WORSHIPPED by idolatrous HEBREWS, 2 Kgs 21:3,5; 23:5.
Unger's Bible Encyclopedia has an article on this Hebrew sun worship. Etc.
Mal. 4:2 - But unto you who fear my name shall the "SUN" of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings;
Wings is 3671 kanaph - edge, extremity, pinnacle, to project down, corner (corner of altar-horn-ray) In other words the SUN's healing RAYS, not wings!
I studied archaeology - and many zodiacs with the Sun God and his solar halo, in his Solar chariot in the center, have been uncovered in ancient Hebrew Temples.
Just Google - Jewish Temple Zodiac - and choose images - to see pictures of some of these.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Read my post up above.
Now it makes sense.
outhouse
Atheistically
Doesn't say a thing about Mithras
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
LOL. Way up above. But here is more of one of the quotes with sentences from above and below it to show it is saying Mithra/Mithras was before Jesus. Read 6.
Impure spirits knew that Jesus Christ would come, they had heard of His coming from the angels, they had heard of it from the prophets, and they expected him.
They expected that He would come, but they were ignorant of the time .
And this is a great thing to see in the whole world, the lion vanquished by the blood of the Lamb: members of Christ delivered from the teeth of the lions, and joined to the body of Christ.
Therefore SOME SPIRIT or other contrived the COUNTERFIT that HIS IMAGE should be bought for BLOOD, because he knew that the human race WAS AT SOME TIME to be redeemed BY the precious BLOOD. For evil spirits counterfeit certain shadows of honor to themselves, that they may DECEIVE those who follow Christ. So much so, my brethren, that those who seduce by means of amulets, by incantations, by the devices of the enemy, MINGLE the name of CHRIST with their incantations: because they are not now able to seduce Christians, so as to give them poison they add some honey, that by means of the sweet the bitter may be concealed, and be drunk to ruin. So much so, that I know that the priest of that PILLEATUS was sometimes in the habit of saying, PILLEATUS HIMSELF also is a CHRISTIAN. Why so, brethren, unless that they were not able otherwise to seduce Christians?
Do not, then, SEEK CHRIST ELSEWHERE than where Christ wished HIMSELF TO BE PREACHED TO YOU;
(the above sentence proves they are talking about Christ/Christos Mithras/Pilleatus.)
Interestingly further down, he also mentions Jesus and the anointed stone HUMMMMM!
You think it might be because Mithras is the anointed from the stone?
He also talks about Jesus and the lamb there are carvings of Mithras with a lamb.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701007.htm
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sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Completely different soteriology.
outhouse
Atheistically
sacrificial lambs were popular in Judaism long before mithras
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
Lambs were popular for sacrifice by many cultures.
However, the point here is to show that the church fathers themselves said Mithras
Worship was BEFORE Christianity.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
LOL! Most religions have other religion's ideas mixed in.
In this case the Church Fathers themselves (see up above) say that Mithras was before Christianity.
That the evil spirits knowing Jesus would come "at some time" with the blood of the lamb - had the "counterfeit" with the blood and lamb, and even the title Christos in place ahead of time.
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How on earth does that follow? "Usque adeo ut ego noverim aliquot tempore illius Pilleati sacerdotem solere dicere, 'Et ipse Pilleatus christianus est.'"
"Even to such an extent that I have known Pilleatus' priest was wont to say now and then 'Even Pilleatus is a Christian".
The point is that this Pilleatus is supposed to be a pagan yet Augustine is asserting that so closely are the pagans borrowing from Christianity that even the priest of this Pilleatus, the one who would know best his religious practices, would often or sometimes declare "Even Pilleatus is a Christian". You seem to have confused the genitive construction "Pilleati sacerdotem" ("of Pilleatus priest" = "priest of Pilleatus" = "Pilleatus' priest). It isn't that the Priest of Pilleatus the way one might be a priest of Jove or priest of Delphi or even a priest of the muses. Rather, it is possessive: Pilleatus' priest, i.e., the priest of whatever temple, shrine, or holy place (or god) that Pilleatus would go and perform whatever cultic practices/traditions were designated appropriate there.
He's a person, not a god.
No. Because our depictions of Mithras are of him coming out of rock, of the type one would find in a cave or cliff face or some similar uncut/unquarried and unhewn/unshaped rock. In other words, he is depicted or sculpted to appear to be coming out of the natural non-quarried material. But the word Augustine uses is lapis. It can refer to everything from a precious stone to a missile (i.e., a projectile that one might use a sling or some other tool or device to fling at an enemy during battle). That's because the basic sense is a piece of rock that has been deliberately removed from whatever quarry or ground it was found, and shaped or used for a purpose.
We have no imagery of Mithras coming out of such a stone, but out of uncut/unshaped rock itself.
He was also born 300 years after Mark was written and ~250 after our evidence for Mithras (the Hellenistic/mystery religion deity). Any evidence from antiquity is useful in some way, but in this case we have nothing that can inform us about the origins of Christianity some 300+ years before Augustine is writing nor anything that can tell us what practices of that time were widespread among pagans. Luckily, we have many other sources beyond Augustine, so we need not rely on carvings to tell inform us concerning Christian practices and how they had evolved since the first century, and there isn't any evidence for a pre-first century Mithras (not to be confused with the non-mystery religion Persian deity, who was entirely different).
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
I get a kick out of this. The church fathers themselves tell us Mithras was first - tell us he had something to do with blood and lamb - which they considered must be because evil spirits knew AHEAD that Jesus would be associated with such, and they even tell us that he was called Christos - Anointed One - which is what the priest is saying - not that he is an actual Christian.
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That's your evidence. There is no mention of Mithras, but for some unknown reason you decide Pilleatus is Mithras.
Where is the mention of Mithras? You keep talking about it only to use bright colors and bolded all caps text to highlight absolutely nothing relevant.
If you wish to believe that there is a secret code hidden in the patristic writings that only you can see, or whatever, fine. But if you wish to discuss Mithras in a debate forum, then quoting passages that never mention Mithras just so you can interpret them any way you wish is not the way to do so.
Where does anything you've quoted say any of this stuff? And what does the blood and the lamb have to do with Mithras, where we find images of bulls being slaughtered not lambs.
1) I quoted the text for you. You point to me and tell me where the Latin word for the Greek word for the Hebrew word for anointed is.
2) The Greek word had been used without being at all special since Homer. It had to do with bathing and cleaning in Greek, and only in Hebrew did it have significance. When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek, Christos was used to translate messiah. It's a Jewish notion, completely alien to Greek and Latin until we start having Jewish and then Christian texts written in Greek.
3) Christos is the transliteration of the Greek Χριστος, but Augustine didn't write in Greek. He wrote in Latin. The Latin for Christ is Christus.
"Et ipse Pilleatus christianus est"
That's what Augustine wrote. It's the basis for the translation you so colorfully highlighted and put in such large letters. There is no word "Christos" there. There is no word Christus. Tell me, what is the Latin word for "Christian"?