Modern man like footprints found, evolution theory in doubt.

[ChristineM]

Which isn't it?

Verse numbers attributed to god please. Your personal claims don't cut it.

 

[dad1]

You are forgetting where I say that some of the names can be verified by the tombs built for these rulers.

So what? Having some names of some people who lived does not mean they lived when you think based on radioactive isotope ratios.

And my point was regarding to human rulers, who were born, lived, reigned, and lastly died and buried. I was talking about spirits or gods, dad1.

You must wear it. When YOU offer a king list that lists spirits as rulers, they are part of the list. The unknown scribbler who may have been a kitchen worker for all we know, doodling on the rear side of an actual document --who was the unknown author of the king list is not reliable. Not for dates. Even if he or she did list some actual real people in his scrawling list.

Yes, the Turin contained some names of mythical gods, spirits and kings, 2 columns of these, but the rest of the King List contained historical rulers that you compare to the inscriptions found at burial sites (mastabas, pyramids, mortuary temples, etc) of various necropolis locations (Umm el-Qa’ab (near Abydos), Saqqara, Dahshur, Abusir, Giza, Valley of the Kings, etc).

What are you now suggesting, that we toss out whole columns in your list as garbage but keep the rest!?

Even if other rulers who were real are on the list does that mean that some may not have lived at the same time as each other? The list is admitted to be unreliable for dates, you are aware of this?

Now, I am not concern with the mythical names of spirits or deities in the Turin King List, because from column 3 and onwards we have a list of names, written in hieratic, of kings from the 1st dynasty to the 17th dynasty; “human” kings.

You claim the unknown scribbler mentions in the document written on the reverse side of an actual document SAID that the first rulers listed were fake or unreal??!

The 1st name of “human” king was Menes, the 1st king of the 1st dynasty, written as transliteration as “Meni”. Most Egyptologists think that this Menes is the same person as Narmer. Whether he goes by the name Menes or Narmer, he was one who united two kingdoms (Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt) into a single state.

Why do the think this precisely, because they need to? Show the support.

His burial chamber was found in the necropolis Umm el-Qa’ab, near Abydos, a capital of Egypt at that time. His name as Narmer is found in column 3 on the Turin papyrus, next to the burial chamber of his son, Hor-Aha, in the Turin list as “Teti”.

You are certain it is the same guy?

Other 1st dynasty rulers, and a couple of 2nd dynasty kings, their tombs have been found in Umm El-Qa’ab too, and their names match those on the Turin King List, and on the Abydos King List, each name in cartouche of hieroglyphs.

If I find a paper today with the name David or Mohamed on it does that mean it is King David or the one who wrote the Koran? What proof do you have that the date when the names were put in the tomb was when you say?

That the names and order of names, between 2 different king lists, is another verification of the kings’ existence as the historical figures.

So Menes isn’t a spirit.

Just because two kings may actually have existed does not verify the complete list, nor does it date anything.

The Turin King List may contain some names of mythological figures, such as gods and spirits, but if you look at the Genesis genealogy (5 and 11, plus that of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and of course Jacob’s sons, since none of them have evidences that match anything related to historical and archaeological timeline, then all you got is a myth.

For instance, there is the cave of Machpelah, which Abraham used as tomb for Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob and Leah, but a building was built during Herod’s time, with further additions by Muslim rulers over time. But there are no inscriptions whatsoever, dating back to early 2nd millennium BCE, to indicate who were buried there, if any.

God is the God of the Living. Not some Crypt keeper. The way we know about Abraham is not by ghoulishly digging up dead men's bones! That is a practice of the religion of the dead...science!

More recent entry into the “cave” in 1967, and later in 1981. The last entry, found chambers, one square in shape, the innermost chamber, oval in shape. All they found were some broken pottery and a wine jug, revealed no bones.

Maybe they never snuck around to every nook and cranny of the death chambers?

At least with the King Lists, we know know the chronological orders of the successive kings match up the timeline of those tombs archaeologists have managed to uncover or discover.

One minute you deny whole columns on the silly list, the next you claim the list represents a successive order? Have you any evidence to show that in no case did any person real or imagined live at the same time as other people on the list? After all, we saw in the US I think it was 5 former presidents in the same room recently. In the bible, they had a bunch of different Herods apparently, some were sort of minor kings over a little region.


Let's face it they admit the list is not reliable for dating. The real way the times are dated is same state past religion. Exclusively.

 

[dad1]

Verse numbers attributed to god please. Your personal claims don't cut it.

There is a whole edition devoted to direct words of God, with red letters in the New Testament and blue letters in the Old testament. You kidding?

 

[ChristineM]

There is a whole edition devoted to direct words of God, with red letters in the New Testament and blue letters in the Old testament. You kidding?

Provide examples of verses directly attributed to god and stop ***** footing around as though you have been caught out and don't have an answer.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Easy to do. The assumption of the same physics and nature in the past is used to model the past. Yet you cannot show us there was a same nature in the past.

That's not a demonstration of anything.

In science, it is as above.

This doesn't even make sense. Do you even have any idea what my beliefs are?

Jesus proved that.

Please demonstrate how.

 

[gnostic]

God is the God of the Living. Not some Crypt keeper. The way we know about Abraham is not by ghoulishly digging up dead men's bones! That is a practice of the religion of the dead...science!

You don’t even know the history and customs of Christianity.

Christianity have history and the habit of displaying dead saints, including body parts, which they venerated.

So your accusations of scientists digging up bodies, are not done by scientists alone. And at least scientists don’t worship or pray to the remains, so who are the ghoulish ones.

And you are forgetting that Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo, as well as other Italian masters, were well known for studying dead bodies. And they were all devout Christians.

You are being selective about what scientists do, but ignoring what Christians have been doing for centuries.

So what? Having some names of some people who lived does not mean they lived when you think based on radioactive isotope ratios.

Are you really that blindly biased that you cannot see connect the tombs, with their names within, match that of those listed in the King List?

That’s what it is called “archaeological evidence”.

Minus the spirits and deities in the Turin List, the order of the kings from 1st dynasty to 17th dynasty are accurate in term to the age of each tomb, hence more evidences.

Just because two kings may actually have existed does not verify the complete list, nor does it date anything.

I only mentioned 2 of the kings, as examples of the earliest kings in the 1st dynasty. There are lot more names in the lists, you know. You are completely ignoring the other tombs in Egypt.

Those 2 names are just a couple of examples of the earliest kings.

Both the Turin King List and the Abydos King List listed 8 kings of the 1st dynasty. All 1st dynasty 8 tombs of these kings are accounted for, buried at Umm El-Qa’ab.

Most of the rulers 3rd, 5th and 6th dynasties listed in the 2 king lists, have pyramids constructed at Saqqara, with their names inscribed. Some kings don’t have pyramids because their reigns were too short. While others only have mastabas built, to serve as tombs.

The 4th dynasty have their pyramids built in Dahshur and in Giza. Sneferu, the founder of this dynasty, had 3 pyramids built at Dahshur.

While his son, Khufu, who built the great pyramid at Giza, and his sons and successors - Djedefre and Khafre - were named in both king lists, but due to brief reign, Djedefre has no pyramid, but there is a statue of his head. Menkaure, Khafre’s son, built the 3rd large pyramid at Giza. The 3 small pyramids were built for the wives of Menkaure, and therefore referred to as Queen Pyramids.

And there are lot more, such as the dynasties of the Middle Kingdom.

All these sites are date-able.

Have you bother to investigate any of names of real human kings in that King List? Have you bother to find out about the tombs where they were buried?

No, it is obvious you didn't, and that make you sounds "ignorant".

 

[Tiberius]

Ah, I see dad has come here after being banned from Christian Forums, and he's peddling the same old nonsense he had there.

 

[dad1]

Provide examples of verses directly attributed to god and stop ***** footing around as though you have been caught out and don't have an answer.

Anything Jesus said was God speaking. How about the ten commandments written by the finger of God in the OT?

 

[dad1]

That's not a demonstration of anything.

Demonstrating there is no proof for the premise used in scientific models is a demo for sure actually.

This doesn't even make sense. Do you even have any idea what my beliefs are?

The beliefs of science are at issue here, one assumes you share those? Or are you here to renounce them or something? Focus.

Please demonstrate how.

Jesus rose from the dead. That shows He is God.

 

[dad1]

Ah, I see dad has come here after being banned from Christian Forums, and he's peddling the same old nonsense he had there.

I don't think this is the thread to discuss biased moderation. I actually got tired of the religious hypocrites there. Something is rotten in Denmark when a supposedly Christian site favors blasphemers and rude demons over honest debate. What, you thought I was paid to have to stay there?

 

[dad1]

Christianity have history and the habit of displaying dead saints, including body parts, which they venerated.]

Nope. Name one saint Jesus showed the bones of, or Peter or Paul etc etc etc? Jesus raises dead bones.

So your accusations of scientists digging up bodies, are not done by scientists alone. And at least scientists don’t worship or pray to the remains, so who are the ghoulish ones.

Defend the grave digging ghouls all you like.

And you are forgetting that Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo, as well as other Italian masters, were well known for studying dead bodies. And they were all devout Christians.

They should have spent less time sniffing paint and playing with men, and more time bible reading maybe.

Are you really that blindly biased that you cannot see connect the tombs, with their names within, match that of those listed in the King List?

Some do of course. But you forgot to prove that every name on the list was a real flesh and blood person who ruled in every case at different times than any other king on the list. That is what you need to do for starters.

That’s what it is called “archaeological evidence”.

I agree. There is a few names the unknown scribbler got right as far as a name of a king goes.

Even there, some names are assumed to be other names!

"The first king of the First Dynasty was the archaeologically attested Narmer. The name Meni, “He who endures,” is probably a descriptive epithet for the long lost name of the legendary king who united the Two Lands.1"
Turin King list in detail


Then we have the Gods, demigods and spirits listed as the first kings!!!!!



Then there are the ones they can't even read!

"
Aha Gardiner II 12

The Dual King, Ity ░
nsw-bit ity [...]

Only the first two signs are readable, while the position of the t-sign leave room for another sign below it, where the papyrus breaks off. The scant traces of the missing sign make it impossible to read."

--same link

Then there are the missing fragments of which you have no info!

"There are a number of fragments that cannot be placed with certainty, or had their position changed over time, as more thorough examinations of the papyrus were undertaken." --same link

Minus the spirits and deities in the Turin List, the order of the kings from 1st dynasty to 17th dynasty are accurate in term to the age of each tomb, hence more evidences.

Great show us the age of each tomb!?

I only mentioned 2 of the kings, as examples of the earliest kings in the 1st dynasty. There are lot more names in the lists, you know. You are completely ignoring the other tombs in Egypt.

Those 2 names are just a couple of examples of the earliest kings.

Now we need to be sure they are the right names and no other kings with the same names lived, and that the kings in all cases ruled at different times rather than just in different fiefdoms, and that we somehow know the true dates and life spans..etc etc.

Both the Turin King List and the Abydos King List listed 8 kings of the 1st dynasty. All 1st dynasty 8 tombs of these kings are accounted for, buried at Umm El-Qa’ab.

Let's cut the nonsense here, the dates are based on same state past dating.

"The date of this period is subject to scholarly debate about the Egyptian chronology. It falls within the early Bronze Age and is variously estimated to have begun anywhere between the 34th and the 30th centuries bc. In a 2013 study based on radiocarbon dates, the beginning of the First Dynasty—the accession of Hor-Aha—was placed at 3100 bc give or take a century (3218–3035, with 95% confidence).[2]"

wiki

While his son, Khufu, who built the great pyramid at Giza, and his sons and successors - Djedefre and Khafre - were named in both king lists, but due to brief reign, Djedefre has no pyramid, but there is a statue of his head. Menkaure, Khafre’s son, built the 3rd large pyramid at Giza. The 3 small pyramids were built for the wives of Menkaure, and therefore referred to as Queen Pyramids.

That brings to mind another question...was there some record of pre flood kings in those early days after the flood!!!!? If so, could some of the kings be pre flood?

All these sites are date-able.

Now that is your big problem. Let's see you do it!!!!!

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Demonstrating there is no proof for the premise used in scientific models is a demo for sure actually.

It is not a demonstration that the laws were different.

The beliefs of science are at issue here, one assumes you share those? Or are you here to renounce them or something? Focus.

"The beliefs of science"? What beliefs? Scientists have a myriad of beliefs.

Jesus rose from the dead. That shows He is God.

And you witnessed this event firsthand?

 

[Altfish]

Jesus rose from the dead. That shows He is God.

Resurrection is common, are all of them god(s)?

12 Amazing Real-Life Resurrection Stories

 

[ChristineM]

Anything Jesus said was God speaking. How about the ten commandments written by the finger of God in the OT?

And your evidence JC actually existed as described in the nt is?

As i have already stated, I've seen his father's gravestone. according to Hebrew law (and they were there at the time, the NT compilers weren't) jcs father was a roman soldier. Is you god an ex roman soldier?

Has anyone any evidence of the tablets containing the 10 commandments existing. Certainly not the Hebrews who are said this magic happened to. In fact Hebrew writing gives it as 13 commandments in the text. And looking deeper there are as many as 613.

Sorry, the bible is not a credible source when there is so much contradictory evidence that actually exists

 

[Darkstorn]

honest debate

This made me chuckle a bit. You actually think what you're doing is "honest debate." I say it's neither honest or a proper debate; you hold your subjective opinion of things to be analogous to fact, and don't even attempt to prove your case using logic. It's not a debate at all. You just want to be heard.

 

[dad1]

It is not a demonstration that the laws were different.

If you deny the demonstrated record of the bible, fine. There is no demonstrated record of science knowin what nature existed on earth in the past. Your one option becomes remaining ignorant of the matter.

"The beliefs of science"? What beliefs? Scientists have a myriad of beliefs.

The belief they base all modesl of the past on, that is that the nature and laws were the same as now.

And you witnessed this event firsthand?

Blessed are they that believe having not seen. We heard. We heard from a plethora of virtuous people who gave their lives to seal in blood that the record was true. We also have the means to test it by trying it today. It works.

 

[dad1]

Resurrection is common, are all of them god(s)?

12 Amazing Real-Life Resurrection Stories

Maybe pray to them then. See how that works. Oh, and hopefully the supposed resurectees have hundreds of exact predictions about their lives written and preserved for many centuries also. Add to that hundreds of people who witnessed it and died to verify it was true.

We wait.

 

[dad1]

And your evidence JC actually existed as described in the nt is?

As i have already stated, I've seen his father's gravestone. according to Hebrew law (and they were there at the time, the NT compilers weren't) jcs father was a roman soldier. Is you god an ex roman soldier?

Has anyone any evidence of the tablets containing the 10 commandments existing. Certainly not the Hebrews who are said this magic happened to. In fact Hebrew writing gives it as 13 commandments in the text. And looking deeper there are as many as 613.

Sorry, the bible is not a credible source when there is so much contradictory evidence that actually exists

Did you buy a bridge too?

 

[dad1]

This made me chuckle a bit. You actually think what you're doing is "honest debate." I say it's neither honest or a proper debate; you hold your subjective opinion of things to be analogous to fact, and don't even attempt to prove your case using logic. It's not a debate at all. You just want to be heard.

Then honestly prove there was this claimed same nature on earth in the past. Simple.
You can't. Honestly.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Then honestly prove there was this claimed same nature on earth in the past. Simple.
You can't. Honestly.

I see that you are still trying to shift the burden of proof. That is a tacit indication that you know that you are wrong. And the evidence has been given to you. You simply ignore it.

Tell me, what sort of evidence would convince you? Please be specific. People will be able to see if you are being realistic or not by your response.