Mohammad in the Bible...

[MyM]

Jewish Bible is another term for Torah and other Hebrew scriptures revealed by the Prophets.
Christian Bible, is the New Testament.

The Old Testament is considered what? Since the first 5 books are "thought" - now proven not to be from Moses, what about the other books in the Old Testament?

 

[MyM]

I believe he could have been prophesied but prophecies are sometimes vague and hard to interpret.

Yes, agreed, but it isn't the fault of the message. It's the fault of the translators who write the book with their own hands and sell it. Also the not-knowing of the Greek and Hebrew language and how they misinterpret words.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Old Testament is considered what? Since the first 5 books are "thought" - now proven not to be from Moses, what about the other books in the Old Testament?

The old Testament is a term the Christians use for Jewish Bible. Some of the books in Old Testament are not by the Prophets. They are history written by people. But the parts which is known as
Pentateuch are divine revelations and were revealed by the Prophets.

 

[Link]

Yes. It means greater.

And when Allah is addressed, it means he is greater. The linguistic value is such that if one understands its value, he is greater than everything..

What ever concept you bring, Allah is greater.

It has utility. When conceptually remembering his exalted servants, we say God is greater. When it comes to our desires, we can also say God is greater (as a reward to yearn for).

This is from Misbahal Shariah from Imam Jaffar (a):

Yearning

He who yearns neither desires food, nor finds pleasure in drink, nor is he quickly excitable, nor is he intimate even with his close friends, nor does he seek refuge in a house, nor does he dwell in a city, nor wear a garment nor take rest enough for his need.

He worships Allah night and day, hoping to reach the object of his yearning. He speaks to Him with the tongue of yearning, declaring what is in his innermost being. This is as Allah said of Moses when he met his Lord:

وَعَجِلْتُ إِلَيْكَ رَبِّ لِتَرْضَى

I hastened to thee, my Lord, that Thou mightest be pleased. (20:84)

The Holy Prophet explained his state as follows: 'He neither ate, drank, slept nor desired any of that in his coming or going for forty days, out of his yearning for his Lord.'

When you enter the arena of yearning, then say takbir for yourself and your desires in this world. Bid farewell to all familiar things, and turn from all except the One you desire most. Say the word Labbayk ('At Your service') between your life and your death: 'At Your service, O Allah, at Your service!' Then Allah will make your reward great. A person who yearns is like a drowning man: he is only concerned with being saved, and forgets every thing else.

 

[firedragon]

Jewish Bible is another term for Torah and other Hebrew scriptures revealed by the Prophets.
Christian Bible, is the New Testament.

You just made that up.

 

[firedragon]

Firstly, we notice, the tense of the verse.

Please advice me on the tense. Is it faala madhaarah, marfooa, faala maadh, majzoom, or are you just making things up on the fly?

 

[firedragon]

It has utility. When conceptually remembering his exalted servants, we say God is greater. When it comes to our desires, we can also say God is greater (as a reward to yearn for).

This is from Misbahal Shariah from Imam Jaffar (a):

Yearning

He who yearns neither desires food, nor finds pleasure in drink, nor is he quickly excitable, nor is he intimate even with his close friends, nor does he seek refuge in a house, nor does he dwell in a city, nor wear a garment nor take rest enough for his need.

He worships Allah night and day, hoping to reach the object of his yearning. He speaks to Him with the tongue of yearning, declaring what is in his innermost being. This is as Allah said of Moses when he met his Lord:

وَعَجِلْتُ إِلَيْكَ رَبِّ لِتَرْضَى

I hastened to thee, my Lord, that Thou mightest be pleased. (20:84)

The Holy Prophet explained his state as follows: 'He neither ate, drank, slept nor desired any of that in his coming or going for forty days, out of his yearning for his Lord.'

When you enter the arena of yearning, then say takbir for yourself and your desires in this world. Bid farewell to all familiar things, and turn from all except the One you desire most. Say the word Labbayk ('At Your service') between your life and your death: 'At Your service, O Allah, at Your service!' Then Allah will make your reward great. A person who yearns is like a drowning man: he is only concerned with being saved, and forgets every thing else.

Irrelevant.

 

[rosends]

Oh, heavens. While I have no interest in finding errors in the Quran, the fact that anything presented can be explained away just proves the point being made.
Textual Variants of the Qur'an
The Different Arabic Versions of the Qur'an - Understanding the qira'at and dialects of the Qur'an

This site makes the case clearly -- each culture has a way to understand and reconcile anything that outsiders label as a problem, so why not abadon that dimension of discussion?
Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an

 

[MyM]

Oh, heavens. While I have no interest in finding errors in the Quran, the fact that anything presented can be explained away just proves the point being made.
Textual Variants of the Qur'an
The Different Arabic Versions of the Qur'an - Understanding the qira'at and dialects of the Qur'an

This site makes the case clearly -- each culture has a way to understand and reconcile anything that outsiders label as a problem, so why not abadon that dimension of discussion?
Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an

and here we go again....

different recitations ARE NOT DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF THE QURAN.

The Quran words ARE ALL THE SAME....There are different ways one can recite it. This was explained already as well. But there is ONLY ONE VERSION OF THE QURAN.

versions nope....for those who do not understand what it means, because they don't understand how to recite the Quran, will think they found a contradiction, but THEY ARE DIFFERENT RECITATIONS...same words ...different sounds of reciting....same meanings from 1400 years ago, same EXACT words from 1400 years ago.

I myself know the Hafs way to recite....which is the way majority of Muslims recite. But if they were to recite it the other ways, it doesn't mean it's a different Quran. Every Muslim knows this and millions who know the Quran my memory, will tell you exactly the same thing. I have a friend whose 4 children have memorized the entire Quran with EACH DIFFERENT RECITATION...that is something Awesome Allahybarak!

So please, understand what I am saying.

 

[Harel13]

So please, understand what I am saying.

@rosends and I are not here to argue with you about flaws in the Quran. We merely use them to demonstrate the flaws in your own arguments against Christianity. The same perfection you believe/think/know you see in the Quran and Islam Christians believe/think/know they see in the Bible, the NT and Christianity. To continue to push your narrative that it is impossible to explain Bible and the NT, or that it is problematic that Christians reject non-canonical gospels is simply illogical, because meanwhile you are saying those exact same things as a Muslim: You explain the Quran and you reject non-canonical hadiths. I recommend you pursue a new line of argument.

 

[rosends]

and here we go again....

different recitations ARE NOT DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF THE QURAN.

The Quran words ARE ALL THE SAME....There are different ways one can recite it. This was explained already as well. But there is ONLY ONE VERSION OF THE QURAN.

versions nope....for those who do not understand what it means, because they don't understand how to recite the Quran, will think they found a contradiction, but THEY ARE DIFFERENT RECITATIONS...same words ...different sounds of reciting....same meanings from 1400 years ago, same EXACT words from 1400 years ago.

I myself know the Hafs way to recite....which is the way majority of Muslims recite. But if they were to recite it the other ways, it doesn't mean it's a different Quran. Every Muslim knows this and millions who know the Quran my memory, will tell you exactly the same thing. I have a friend whose 4 children have memorized the entire Quran with EACH DIFFERENT RECITATION...that is something Awesome Allahybarak!

So please, understand what I am saying.

I do -- you are giving an explanation of the existence of differences. I also provided resources that discuss other changes and contradictions -- not to try and disprove anything but to illustrate that when a believer is confronted with issues in his text, he has a way to explain them away, a way that outsiders would not accept. That's not unique to Islam.

 

[MyM]

@rosends and I are not here to argue with you about flaws in the Quran. We merely use them to demonstrate the flaws in your own arguments against Christianity. The same perfection you believe/think/know you see in the Quran and Islam Christians believe/think/know they see in the Bible, the NT and Christianity. To continue to push your narrative that it is impossible to explain Bible and the NT, or that it is problematic that Christians reject non-canonical gospels is simply illogical, because meanwhile you are saying those exact same things as a Muslim: You explain the Quran and you reject non-canonical hadiths. I recommend you pursue a new line of argument.

But there is a way can trace back to the days of Mohammad pbuh and straight to him. Whereas Jews and Christians CANNOT. That is the big difference and it isn't illogical to bring up that point. We can and do explain because we can prove what hadiths are fake and what are weak.

I will not pursue a new line of argument, because it would defeat the purpose of trying to state mine. People deflect when they cannot find a way out of something.

If I don't know something, I will tell you for I am not a scholar of Islam. I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of Islam, but I have been a Muslim for quite some time and have studied, gone to lessons, memorized the Quran and know scholars and my sons have well studied and are considered mutawas. I can pretty well see when some are trying to take advantage so I can either back out or discuss.

 

[MyM]

I do -- you are giving an explanation of the existence of differences. I also provided resources that discuss other changes and contradictions -- not to try and disprove anything but to illustrate that when a believer is confronted with issues in his text, he has a way to explain them away, a way that outsiders would not accept. That's not unique to Islam.

Your resourses are faulty because they don't know the Arabic grammar usage of the Quran.

 

[Harel13]

Whereas Jews and Christians CANNOT

Are you 100% certain about this statement? I think that if you were to question some Christians and Jews, you will find that at least some will point out that you are mistaken and will proceed to show you how to directly trace their canonical sources back to the original apostles and/or prophets.

will not pursue a new line of argument, because it would defeat the purpose of trying to state mine

Well, good luck with that, then.

People deflect when they cannot find a way out of something.

Or just ignore the questions? (yes, I am hinting about those questions of mine that you haven't answered yet on this thread and the Jesus thread. If you do not wish to answer them, say so and I will not pursue them).

If I don't know something, I will tell you for I am not a scholar of Islam. I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of Islam, but I have been a Muslim for quite some time and have studied, gone to lessons, memorized the Quran and know scholars and my sons have well studied and are considered mutawas. I can pretty well see when some are trying to take advantage so I can either back out or discuss.

I'm sure you do know much, which is exactly why I did not bring any perceived contradictions in the Quran just to watch you explain them away, as I already stated multiple times on this thread. You proceeded to do so anyway, because it seems that you have not understood the issue at hand. Unfortunate, mainly for you, I think, but I guess there are only so many ways I can attempt to explain a problem.

 

[MyM]

Are you 100% certain about this statement? I think that if you were to question some Christians and Jews, you will find that at least some will point out that you are mistaken and will proceed to show you how to directly trace their canonical sources back to the original apostles and/or prophets.

Well, good luck with that, then.

Or just ignore the questions? (yes, I am hinting about those questions of mine that you haven't answered yet on this thread and the Jesus thread. If you do not wish to answer them, say so and I will not pursue them).


I'm sure you do know much, which is exactly why I did not bring any perceived contradictions in the Quran just to watch you explain them away, as I already stated multiple times on this thread. You proceeded to do so anyway, because it seems that you have not understood the issue at hand. Unfortunate, mainly for you, I think, but I guess there are only so many ways I can attempt to explain a problem.

Which questions...I have read so much am lost to what is where in this forum.

Christians theologians yes, they have found scripts...words...AFTER and then guesswork starts to play...the Bible itself is when and how long after the prophets???? The Torah??? Unknown authors that no one can place to, at and where from? Yes, I am very sure that they can't place the Bible back.

 

[Harel13]

Christians theologians yes, they have found scripts...words...AFTER and then guesswork starts to play...the Bible itself is when and how long after the prophets???? The Torah??? Unknown authors that no one can place to, at and where from? Yes, I am very sure that they can't place the Bible back.

I don't know what you mean by this, but perhaps we can make this into a kind of contest. Volunteer representatives of each of the three religions here on RF will bring the best sources and proofs they have for their unbroken chain of tradition and scripture.

Which questions...I have read so much am lost to what is where in this forum.

I accept that you forgot about them. I will link them again tomorrow.

 

[MyM]

I don't know what you mean by this, but perhaps we can make this into a kind of contest. Volunteer representatives of each of the three religions here on RF will bring the best sources and proofs they have for their unbroken chain of tradition and scripture.

I accept that you forgot about them. I will link them again tomorrow.

I will not be able to do that. I am not a scholar and in Islam, one is not to say something that they do not know. Scholars know more than I and they are more knowledgeable in the Arabic language than I (am not Arab). One will have to be extremely knowledgeable to be able to do this type of definitive work.

Islam isn't a joke and I am not a debater with in-depth knowledge pertaining to the Quran. You would need a hafith-one who memorized the Quran from front to back, a scholar, and someone who knows the background of ahal ahadith-family of ahadith. It's extremely vast.

 

[Harel13]

I will not be able to do that. I am not a scholar and in Islam, one is not to say something that they do not know. Scholars know more than I and they are more knowledgeable in the Arabic language than I (am not Arab). One will have to be extremely knowledgeable to be able to do this type of definitive work.

Unfortunate, I think. It seems you can claim day and night that Islam has proof of an unbroken chain from Muhammad but if asked, are unable - for whatever reason - to actually show the evidence. I am not doubting your claim that it is possible, just think that it's problematic to argue for something you don't fully understand.
In any case, for my idea - it doesn't matter who does that. It just needs to be someone who thinks he is familiar enough with the sources to be able to properly present them.

 

[Mister Emu]

In Islam, Allah says, they have changed the their books with their hands.

The Song of Solomon....mentions the name of Mohammad and the Bible translated it as "altogether lovely".

This is a question you should ask your translators.

Does Hosea 9:6 mention Mohammad as well? Did Memphis bury him with the silver?
What about 1 Kings, was Benhadad, king of Syria threatening to take away Muhammad from the house of King Ahab, and the houses of his servants?

The word you want to interpret, without ground or purpose other to insert your prophet into a wholly inappropriate context, is used more than once in the Bible; by what special pleading do you argue that this singular instance of the word should be understood to be a reference to Muhammad?

 

[MyM]

Unfortunate, I think. It seems you can claim day and night that Islam has proof of an unbroken chain from Muhammad but if asked, are unable - for whatever reason - to actually show the evidence. I am not doubting your claim that it is possible, just think that it's problematic to argue for something you don't fully understand.
In any case, for my idea - it doesn't matter who does that. It just needs to be someone who thinks he is familiar enough with the sources to be able to properly present them.

Wow, I explained and IT DOES MATTER in Islam. We don't let just any Tom Dick or Harry explain what they don't know. It isn't allowed. Muslims can speak of what they know. What they don't, they leave it to those who do. It is very serious in Islam and not just a matter of one subject. Islamic knowledge is extremely vast in its grammar, its information, its exegesis', its words, its history, its shari'ah, the entire Islamic religion isn't just based on what one knows and doesn't know. If that would be the case, it would have been another messed up religion as before. Allah forbids it. So you can judge me all you want, but when my religion tells me to not speak of what you do not know, I don't.