Morality of the Old Testament

[shunyadragon]

Music and dance have everything to do with the issues at hand.



Libertine Behavior: "The Slaves Act As If They Are Free"

In July, 1819, Gerónimo Torres decided to travel to his mine given that during the previous months the royalist government had devised a campaign against the insubordinate slave gangs of San Juan and neighboring Saija. Although the government's offensive led to apparent victory, after 11 months at the mine, Torres had to draft a letter pleading for help because of the difficult situation he had encountered. Torres' 1820 letter to the governor of Popayán noted that the "scandalous insubordination [of the slaves in the mine] demands that public authority aid the masters to subject and correct them."

Torres had arrived thinking he would find "the slaves weakened, submissive, and willing to repair all of the damage they had caused their masters." Instead he was shocked when all he found in the slaves was "pride, arrogance, insubordination, and neglect." The description that Torres provides in the letter is interesting and certainly serves as an exceptional source of information. He notes that in the months he spent amoung what he considered to be his slaves, they rejected his orders, forcing him to tolerate their disorder and disrespect. Particularly noteworthy is that Torres said that whenever he attempted to scold a slave, the parents and family of the slave being punished would soon arive at Torres' house to challenge him. Additionally, he recounted that he constantly recieved threats from the slaves, who used the hunting spears they posessed to warn him, "if I punished them they would kill me with their spears." Finally, Torres noted that he was particularly bothered because "they have organized dances in my house without my permission, insulting me even in their songs," and "the slaves at as if they were free."

Torres decided to leave the mine given that it was impossible for him to keep his slaves under control, since he had no authority over them, and in view of the "innate, and impossible to overcome, hatred that the slave has for his master, which he immediately applies at the moment when he does not feel the master's authority over him." From this statement it seems that Torres acknowledged his slaves had expressed their will not to be dominated by him nor to obey him. This was possible for the slaves - now closer to ex-slaves - lately because during the past nine years they had made the mine their own and, at the time of his return, were armed (with spears and knives); thus, they did not feel threatened by a single white mine owner attempting to retun them to slavery. They were not receptive to his multiple attempts to negociate with them, through such measures as giving them new work tools, allowing them to continue working their plots, decreasing their working day (jornal) by one-half, treating them for their illnesses, and distributing clothes and goods to them free of charge.

(pages 183-184)

snip-----------

Indian and Slave Royalists in the Age of Revolution: Reform, Revolution, and Royalism in the Northern Andes, 1780-1825

Where in the Torah, Bible and the Quran can you cite any reference that slavery is immoral?

The movement to end slavery in in Christian countries are referring to are very late in in Western history. You are citing modern forms of reform not based on Biblical morality and ethics in part motivated the more humanism Age of Enlightenment and the teachings of the Baha'i Faith to forbid slavery of all kinds,

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1032373218759971?journalCode=acha#:~:text=The%20Enlightenment%20ideal%20of%20the,States)%3B%20notwithstanding%20that%2C%20former

This article discusses Enlightenment principles and describes how they were manifested in the debates on slavery. It then analyzes the role of accounting during the slave era in the United States and British West Indies. The key areas discussed are property rights, the humanity of slaves, economic incentives, and self-improvement. The article finds that belief in progress through reason, the common denominator of Enlightenment thinking, was not generally evident in the management and accounting practices on plantations and that the utility of accounting to slaveholders was limited. These practices were not geared toward improving productivity. Instead, short-term gains were achieved by driving the slaves harder, or longer term ones by treating slaves more benevolently to extend life spans or acquiring new plantations to expand capacity. The rate of productivity on plantations tended to be governed by established social norms and was not susceptible to change nor was it noticeably impacted by accounting.

You are still neglecting the fact that Racial motivated Penal slavery was still widespread in the USA until very very recently.

Also no where in the scripture of the Torah, Bible or the Quran prohibits slavery, therefore it is up to reform movements as those tht perpetuate slavey cite scripture to support slavery,

 

[shunyadragon]

But can you answer the questions I asked about the law?



You are welcome to ask a question, and maybe I will respond. However it is exceptionally rude to write this when you did not respond to the question I asked.

Please take your preaching elsewhere. I have higher standards for intellectual discourse.

What question? If you are referring to Hebrew Law as in Deuteronomy it is an evolved system of Law based on Babylonian Code of Hammurabi.

I all ready gave references that the Pentateuch was not compiled until after 600 BCE, and the only earlier texts are Canaanite, Babylonian, and Sumerian. C.an you document Hebrew origin of texts concerning the Law before 600 BCE.

All you have done is cite text and no references documenting a Hebrew origin of the Law.

Introduction

AbstractThe law collection genre is rooted in Mesopotamia, beginning with the Sumerian Laws of Ur-Namma in the third millennium BCE. Over the next millenni

academic.oup.com

Making a Case: The Practical Roots of Biblical Law

Abstract​

The law collection genre is rooted in Mesopotamia, beginning with the Sumerian Laws of Ur-Namma in the third millennium BCE. Over the next millennium, similar collections were produced in Mesopotamia, the most famous being the Laws of Hammurabi. The Assyrians and Hittites also put this genre to use in their own contexts. It has long been taken for granted that certain biblical units—specifically, Exodus 20–23, Deuteronomy 12–26, and Priestly law—likewise reflect “native” adaptations of the Near Eastern genre. Close examination of these texts, however, indicates that they are closer in form and function to the Mesopotamian genre of legal-pedagogical texts. Mesopotamian scribes produced a wide range of legal-oriented school-texts, including fictional cases, sample contracts, and legal phrasebooks. When Exodus 20–23 and Deuteronomy 12–26 are examined against the backdrop of these Mesopotamian legal-pedagogical texts, the pedagogical roots of what scholars call “biblical law” begin to emerge.

 

[Audie]

@Elihoenai :

But that's exactly what the Gnostic document "On The Origin Of The World" I cited does! It seems to me that you're advocating a variant of Gnosticism that has strayed from its roots.

@Elihoenai :


You're very good at citing passages from the Bible that support your theological position, but your answer to my direct questions about other passages in the Bible seems to be "those passages don't matter; the only passages that matter are the ones I care about." I can find passages from the Bible that support any of a range of theological positions-- some of them anathema to many major Christian sects. Citing a specific subset of passages as proof of the "truth" is a common Christian gimmick. The real question shouldn't be "What do the specific passages I love say?" but should instead be "What is the broad message of the Bible as a whole?" That's a much more difficult thing to assess-- and it certainly can't be arrived at by simply ignoring vast swaths of the biblical writings. As far as the original Gnostic literature goes-- at least as concerns those documents retrieved from the Nag Hammadi library-- in my opinion that body of works is a morass of woolly speculation and conjecture.

Everyone who cites the bible picks, chooses,
interprets to the meaning that suits them.

 

[dybmh]

What question?

The question which was quoted to you twice. This will be the 3rd time that I have asked.

Here is what you wrote:

The Laws and mythology most likely evolved from Sumerian, Babylonian and Phoenician./Canaanite culture and writings,

You have asserted that the laws have evolved FROM Sumerian, Babylonian and Phoenician./Canaanite culture and writings. I m asking for you to provide the original quotes of these texts. If you cannot, then, you have clearly not read these texts fro yourself and you are not capable of discussing them intelligently. Without reading the "Phoenician./Canaanite" writings, how can you assert that the biblical law evolved from them? All it is a faith-based belief and devotion to someone else's words. Without reading the "Phoenician./Canaanite" texts it is impossible to know whether or not your sources are correct. There is only strongly-held-belief.

I brought examples of the law. I asked for the writings from which they evolved. The fact that you cannot answer these questions demonstrates that you don't actually have any expertise in this subject matter. Here it is again. I have made the questions large font and red because you seem to be having significant reading difficulties.

Your assertion is bold and blue. My questions are bold and red. Lacking the capability of answering these questions indicates that the assertion you've brought has not been critically examined. This is no different than any other religious theory which collapses when it is critically examined.

The Laws and mythology most likely evolved from Sumerian, Babylonian and Phoenician./Canaanite culture and writings,

From which Sumerian, Babylonian and Phoenician./Canaanite culture and writings, did this law evolve?

​

Exodus 13:16​

​

והיה לאות על־ידכה ולטוטפת בין עיניך כי בחזק יד הוציאנו יהוה ממצרים׃​

And it shall be for a sign upon your hand, and for frontlets between your eyes; for by strength of hand the Lord brought us forth out of Egypt.​

Deuteronomy 11:18​

​

ושמתם את־דברי אלה על־לבבכם ועל־נפשכם וקשרתם אתם לאות על־ידכם והיו לטוטפת בין עיניכם׃​

​

Therefore shall you lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.​

From which Sumerian, Babylonian and Phoenician./Canaanite culture and writings, did these law evolve?

Deuteronomy:

​

22:6​

כי יקרא קן־צפור לפניך בדרך בכל־עץ או על־הארץ אפרחים או ביצים והאם רבצת על־האפרחים או על־הביצים לא־תקח האם על־הבנים׃​

If a bird’s nest chances to be before you in the way in any tree, or on the ground, whether they are young ones, or eggs, and the mother sitting upon the young, or upon the eggs, you shall not take the mother with the young;​

​

22:7​

שלח תשלח את־האם ואת־הבנים תקח־לך למען ייטב לך והארכת ימים׃​

But you shall let the mother go, and take the young to you; that it may be well with you, and that you may prolong your days.​

​

22:8​

כי תבנה בית חדש ועשית מעקה לגגך ולא־תשים דמים בביתך כי־יפל הנפל ממנו׃​

When you build a new house, then you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you should not bring any blood upon your house, if any man falls from there.​

​

22:9​

לא־תזרע כרמך כלאים פן־תקדש המלאה הזרע אשר תזרע ותבואת הכרם׃​

You shall not sow your vineyard with different seeds; lest the fruit of your seed which you have sown, and the fruit of your vineyard, be defiled.​

​

22:10​

לא־תחרש בשור־ובחמר יחדו׃​

You shall not plow with an ox and an *** together.​

​

22:11​

לא תלבש שעטנז צמר ופשתים יחדו׃​

You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, like woolen and linen together.​

​

22:12​

גדלים תעשה־לך על־ארבע כנפות כסותך אשר תכסה־בה׃​

You shall make fringes upon the four quarters of your cloak, with which you cover yourself.​

​

it is an evolved system of Law based on Babylonian Code of Hammurabi.

Where are the following laws in the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi? Do you have a Code of Hammurabi to refer to? Can you quote it?

These are the laws listed above in summary. Where is their basis in the Code of Hammurabi?

1. tefillin
2. the mother-bird and the nest
3. fences on the roof
4. prohibition on kilayim
5. do not plow with mixed cattle
6. prohibition on shatnez
7. tzitzit

I all ready gave references that the Pentateuch was not compiled until after 600 BCE

When it is compiled is irrelevant to when the law was conceived and its original source.

It has long been taken for granted that certain biblical units—specifically, Exodus 20–23, Deuteronomy 12–26, and Priestly law—likewise reflect “native” adaptations of the Near Eastern genre.

Great! Please provide examples of the Near Eastern Genre which have a connection to the examples I brought from Deut 22. The article you brought should include the details, assuming that you have actually read it. This should be easy for you.

When Exodus 20–23 and Deuteronomy 12–26 are examined against the backdrop of these Mesopotamian legal-pedagogical texts, the pedagogical roots of what scholars call “biblical law” begin to emerge.

Great! Let's do it! Let's "examine" Deut 22 "against the backdrop of Mesopotamian legal-pedagogical texts".

Please bring quotations from "Mesopotamian legal-pedagogical texts" so that they can be examined.

Thank you,

 

[jimb]

The question which was quoted to you twice. This will be the 3rd time that I have asked.

Here is what you wrote:



You have asserted that the laws have evolved FROM Sumerian, Babylonian and Phoenician./Canaanite culture and writings. I m asking for you to provide the original quotes of these texts. If you cannot, then, you have clearly not read these texts fro yourself and you are not capable of discussing them intelligently. Without reading the "Phoenician./Canaanite" writings, how can you assert that the biblical law evolved from them? All it is a faith-based belief and devotion to someone else's words. Without reading the "Phoenician./Canaanite" texts it is impossible to know whether or not your sources are correct. There is only strongly-held-belief.

I brought examples of the law. I asked for the writings from which they evolved. The fact that you cannot answer these questions demonstrates that you don't actually have any expertise in this subject matter. Here it is again. I have made the questions large font and red because you seem to be having significant reading difficulties.

Your assertion is bold and blue. My questions are bold and red. Lacking the capability of answering these questions indicates that the assertion you've brought has not been critically examined. This is no different than any other religious theory which collapses when it is critically examined.



From which Sumerian, Babylonian and Phoenician./Canaanite culture and writings, did this law evolve?

​

Exodus 13:16​

​

והיה לאות על־ידכה ולטוטפת בין עיניך כי בחזק יד הוציאנו יהוה ממצרים׃​

And it shall be for a sign upon your hand, and for frontlets between your eyes; for by strength of hand the Lord brought us forth out of Egypt.​

Deuteronomy 11:18​

​

ושמתם את־דברי אלה על־לבבכם ועל־נפשכם וקשרתם אתם לאות על־ידכם והיו לטוטפת בין עיניכם׃​

​

Therefore shall you lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.​

From which Sumerian, Babylonian and Phoenician./Canaanite culture and writings, did these law evolve?

Deuteronomy:

​

22:6​

כי יקרא קן־צפור לפניך בדרך בכל־עץ או על־הארץ אפרחים או ביצים והאם רבצת על־האפרחים או על־הביצים לא־תקח האם על־הבנים׃​

If a bird’s nest chances to be before you in the way in any tree, or on the ground, whether they are young ones, or eggs, and the mother sitting upon the young, or upon the eggs, you shall not take the mother with the young;​

​

22:7​

שלח תשלח את־האם ואת־הבנים תקח־לך למען ייטב לך והארכת ימים׃​

But you shall let the mother go, and take the young to you; that it may be well with you, and that you may prolong your days.​

​

22:8​

כי תבנה בית חדש ועשית מעקה לגגך ולא־תשים דמים בביתך כי־יפל הנפל ממנו׃​

When you build a new house, then you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you should not bring any blood upon your house, if any man falls from there.​

​

22:9​

לא־תזרע כרמך כלאים פן־תקדש המלאה הזרע אשר תזרע ותבואת הכרם׃​

You shall not sow your vineyard with different seeds; lest the fruit of your seed which you have sown, and the fruit of your vineyard, be defiled.​

​

22:10​

לא־תחרש בשור־ובחמר יחדו׃​

You shall not plow with an ox and an *** together.​

​

22:11​

לא תלבש שעטנז צמר ופשתים יחדו׃​

You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, like woolen and linen together.​

​

22:12​

גדלים תעשה־לך על־ארבע כנפות כסותך אשר תכסה־בה׃​

You shall make fringes upon the four quarters of your cloak, with which you cover yourself.​

​

Where are the following laws in the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi? Do you have a Code of Hammurabi to refer to? Can you quote it?

These are the laws listed above in summary. Where is their basis in the Code of Hammurabi?

1. tefillin
2. the mother-bird and the nest
3. fences on the roof
4. prohibition on kilayim
5. do not plow with mixed cattle
6. prohibition on shatnez
7. tzitzit

When it is compiled is irrelevant to when the law was conceived and its original source.



Great! Please provide examples of the Near Eastern Genre which have a connection to the examples I brought from Deut 22. The article you brought should include the details, assuming that you have actually read it. This should be easy for you.



Great! Let's do it! Let's "examine" Deut 22 "against the backdrop of Mesopotamian legal-pedagogical texts".

Please bring quotations from "Mesopotamian legal-pedagogical texts" so that they can be examined.

Thank you,

GREAT POST!!

 

[shunyadragon]

The question which was quoted to you twice. This will be the 3rd time that I have asked.

Here is what you wrote:



You have asserted that the laws have evolved FROM Sumerian, Babylonian and Phoenician./Canaanite culture and writings. I m asking for you to provide the original quotes of these texts. If you cannot, then, you have clearly not read these texts fro yourself and you are not capable of discussing them intelligently. Without reading the "Phoenician./Canaanite" writings, how can you assert that the biblical law evolved from them? All it is a faith-based belief and devotion to someone else's words. Without reading the "Phoenician./Canaanite" texts it is impossible to know whether or not your sources are correct. There is only strongly-held-belief.

I brought examples of the law. I asked for the writings from which they evolved. The fact that you cannot answer these questions demonstrates that you don't actually have any expertise in this subject matter. Here it is again. I have made the questions large font and red because you seem to be having significant reading difficulties.

Your assertion is bold and blue. My questions are bold and red. Lacking the capability of answering these questions indicates that the assertion you've brought has not been critically examined. This is no different than any other religious theory which collapses when it is critically examined.



From which Sumerian, Babylonian and Phoenician./Canaanite culture and writings, did this law evolve?

​

Exodus 13:16​

​

והיה לאות על־ידכה ולטוטפת בין עיניך כי בחזק יד הוציאנו יהוה ממצרים׃​

And it shall be for a sign upon your hand, and for frontlets between your eyes; for by strength of hand the Lord brought us forth out of Egypt.​

Deuteronomy 11:18​

​

ושמתם את־דברי אלה על־לבבכם ועל־נפשכם וקשרתם אתם לאות על־ידכם והיו לטוטפת בין עיניכם׃​

​

Therefore shall you lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.​

From which Sumerian, Babylonian and Phoenician./Canaanite culture and writings, did these law evolve?

Deuteronomy:

​

22:6​

כי יקרא קן־צפור לפניך בדרך בכל־עץ או על־הארץ אפרחים או ביצים והאם רבצת על־האפרחים או על־הביצים לא־תקח האם על־הבנים׃​

If a bird’s nest chances to be before you in the way in any tree, or on the ground, whether they are young ones, or eggs, and the mother sitting upon the young, or upon the eggs, you shall not take the mother with the young;​

​

22:7​

שלח תשלח את־האם ואת־הבנים תקח־לך למען ייטב לך והארכת ימים׃​

But you shall let the mother go, and take the young to you; that it may be well with you, and that you may prolong your days.​

​

22:8​

כי תבנה בית חדש ועשית מעקה לגגך ולא־תשים דמים בביתך כי־יפל הנפל ממנו׃​

When you build a new house, then you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you should not bring any blood upon your house, if any man falls from there.​

​

22:9​

לא־תזרע כרמך כלאים פן־תקדש המלאה הזרע אשר תזרע ותבואת הכרם׃​

You shall not sow your vineyard with different seeds; lest the fruit of your seed which you have sown, and the fruit of your vineyard, be defiled.​

​

22:10​

לא־תחרש בשור־ובחמר יחדו׃​

You shall not plow with an ox and an *** together.​

​

22:11​

לא תלבש שעטנז צמר ופשתים יחדו׃​

You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, like woolen and linen together.​

​

22:12​

גדלים תעשה־לך על־ארבע כנפות כסותך אשר תכסה־בה׃​

You shall make fringes upon the four quarters of your cloak, with which you cover yourself.​

​

Where are the following laws in the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi? Do you have a Code of Hammurabi to refer to? Can you quote it?

These are the laws listed above in summary. Where is their basis in the Code of Hammurabi?

1. tefillin
2. the mother-bird and the nest
3. fences on the roof
4. prohibition on kilayim
5. do not plow with mixed cattle
6. prohibition on shatnez
7. tzitzit

When it is compiled is irrelevant to when the law was conceived and its original source.



Great! Please provide examples of the Near Eastern Genre which have a connection to the examples I brought from Deut 22. The article you brought should include the details, assuming that you have actually read it. This should be easy for you.



Great! Let's do it! Let's "examine" Deut 22 "against the backdrop of Mesopotamian legal-pedagogical texts".

Please bring quotations from "Mesopotamian legal-pedagogical texts" so that they can be examined.

Thank you,

I gave my references and you chose to ignore them. Just citing text is meaningless.. Yes the Hebrews added and edited the older texts, but the origin is well documented in my reference that the origin of the Laws of Deuteronomy is an evolved text of older Babylonian text.

Please provide any and I mean any text from the Pentateuch that can be dated before 600 BCE. Just putting up text from the Pentateuch is absolutely no evidence that any Hebrew writings existed before the compilation after 600 BCE.

I do not spoon feed those who are stuck in an ancient past and will not read the reference for themselves.

You can quote text all day but you cannot provide one shred of text before the Hebrews returned from exile.

 

[shunyadragon]

GREAT POST!!

Without a response to the documentation provided. Can you provide any reference that dates the Pentateuch before 600 BCE?

 

[Aupmanyav]

In some religions, music and dance are very important.

Indian Classical Dances and Ragas:

"A raga ( lit. 'coloring' or 'tingeing' or 'dyeing') is a melodic framework for improvisation in Indian classical music akin to a melodic mode." - Wikipedia

 

[jimb]

Without a response to the documentation provided. Can you provide any reference that dates the Pentateuch before 600 BCE?

This was in response to a post by dybmh, #124, not you. BTW, you haven't given a satisfactory response to his post. Why do you keep repeating the same assertion? Because you can't prove your point?

 

[shunyadragon]

My response is based on documented academic references concerning the origins of

This was in response to a post by dybmh, #124, not you. BTW, you haven't given a satisfactory response to his post. Why do you keep repeating the same assertion? Because you can't prove your point?

My responses are based on academic references concerning the origins of the Pentateuch. Stoic stonewalling is not an adequate response,

No references provided that are contrary to my references. Can you provide any references that could document the origins of the Pentateuch other than what I provided before 600 BCE?

 

[shunyadragon]

The question which was quoted to you twice. This will be the 3rd time that I have asked.

Another reference more to follow . . .

Virtually all modern secular scholars, and most Christian and Jewish scholars, reject the Mosaic authorship of the Book of Deuteronomy and date the book much later, between the 7th and 5th centuries BC.[13] Its authors were probably the Levite caste, collectively referred to as the Deuteronomist, whose economic needs and social status the book reflects.[14] The historical background to the book's composition is currently viewed in the following general terms:[15]

• In the late 8th century BC both Judah and Israel were vassals of Assyria. Israel rebelled and was destroyed circa 722 BC. Refugees fleeing from Israel to Judah brought with them a number of traditions that were new to Judah. One of these was that the god Yahweh, already known and worshiped in Judah, was not merely the most important of the gods, but the only god who should be served.[16] This outlook influenced the Judahite landowning ruling class, which became extremely powerful in court circles after placing the eight-year-old Josiah on the throne following the murder of his father, Amon of Judah.
• By the eighteenth year of Josiah's reign, Assyrian power was in rapid decline, and a pro-independence movement was gathering strength in the Kingdom of Judah. One manifestation of this movement was a state theology of loyalty to Yahweh as the sole god of the Kingdom of Judah. According to 2 Kings 22:1–23:30, at this time Hilkiah (the High Priest and father of the prophet Jeremiah) discovered the "book of the law" – which many scholars believe to be the Deuteronomic Code (the set of laws at chapters 12–26 which form the original core of the Book of Deuteronomy) – in the temple. Josiah subsequently launched a full-scale reform of worship based on this "book of the law", which takes the form of a covenant between Judah and Yahweh to replace the decades-old vassal treaty between King Esarhaddon of Assyria and King Manasseh of Judah.[17]
• The next stage took place during the Babylonian captivity. The destruction of the Kingdom of Judah by Babylon in 586 BC and the end of kingship was the occasion of much reflection and theological speculation among the Deuteronomistic elite, now in exile in the city of Babylon. The disaster was supposedly Yahweh's punishment of their failure to follow the law, and so they created a history of Israel (the books of Joshua through Kings) to illustrate this.
• At the end of the Exile, when the Persians agreed that the Jews could return and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, chapters 1–4 and 29–30 were added and Deuteronomy was made the introductory book to this history, so that a story about a people about to enter the Promised Land became a story about a people about to return to the land. The legal sections of chapters 19–25 were expanded to meet new situations that had arisen, and chapters 31–34 were added as a new conclusion.

Chapters 12–26, containing the Deuteronomic Code, are the earliest section.[18] Since the idea was first put forward by W. M. L. de Wette in 1805, most scholars have accepted that this portion of the book was composed in Jerusalem in the 7th century BC in the context of religious reforms advanced by King Hezekiah (reigned c. 716–687 BC),[19][20] although some have argued for other dates, such as during the reign of his successor Manasseh (687–643 BC) or even much later, such as during the exilic or postexilic periods (597–332 BC).[13][21] The second prologue (Ch. 5–11) was the next section to be composed, and then the first prologue (Ch. 1–4); the chapters following 26 are similarly layered.[18]

Israel–Judah division​

The prophet Isaiah, active in Jerusalem about a century before Josiah, makes no mention of the Exodus, covenants with God, or disobedience to God's laws. In contrast, Isaiah's contemporary Hosea, active in the northern kingdom of Israel, makes frequent references to the Exodus, the wilderness wanderings, a covenant, the danger of foreign gods and the need to worship Yahweh alone. This discrepancy has led scholars to conclude that these traditions behind Deuteronomy have a northern origin.[22] Whether the Deuteronomic Code was written in Josiah's time (late 7th century BC) or earlier is subject to debate, but many of the individual laws are older than the collection itself.[23] The two poems at chapters 32–33 – the Song of Moses and the Blessing of Moses were probably originally independent.[22]

​

 

[jimb]

My response is based on documented academic references concerning the origins of

My responses are based on academic references concerning the origins of the Pentateuch. Stoic stonewalling is not an adequate response,

No references provided that are contrary to my references. Can you provide any references that could document the origins of the Pentateuch other than what I provided before 600 BCE?

We have been through this before. No matter what evidence you are given, you persist in the same erroneous thinking, so what is the point of giving you the same proof again?

 

[jimb]

Another reference more to follow . . .

Virtually all modern secular scholars, and most Christian and Jewish scholars, reject the Mosaic authorship of the Book of Deuteronomy and date the book much later, between the 7th and 5th centuries BC.[13] Its authors were probably the Levite caste, collectively referred to as the Deuteronomist, whose economic needs and social status the book reflects.[14] The historical background to the book's composition is currently viewed in the following general terms:[15]

• In the late 8th century BC both Judah and Israel were vassals of Assyria. Israel rebelled and was destroyed circa 722 BC. Refugees fleeing from Israel to Judah brought with them a number of traditions that were new to Judah. One of these was that the god Yahweh, already known and worshiped in Judah, was not merely the most important of the gods, but the only god who should be served.[16] This outlook influenced the Judahite landowning ruling class, which became extremely powerful in court circles after placing the eight-year-old Josiah on the throne following the murder of his father, Amon of Judah.
• By the eighteenth year of Josiah's reign, Assyrian power was in rapid decline, and a pro-independence movement was gathering strength in the Kingdom of Judah. One manifestation of this movement was a state theology of loyalty to Yahweh as the sole god of the Kingdom of Judah. According to 2 Kings 22:1–23:30, at this time Hilkiah (the High Priest and father of the prophet Jeremiah) discovered the "book of the law" – which many scholars believe to be the Deuteronomic Code (the set of laws at chapters 12–26 which form the original core of the Book of Deuteronomy) – in the temple. Josiah subsequently launched a full-scale reform of worship based on this "book of the law", which takes the form of a covenant between Judah and Yahweh to replace the decades-old vassal treaty between King Esarhaddon of Assyria and King Manasseh of Judah.[17]
• The next stage took place during the Babylonian captivity. The destruction of the Kingdom of Judah by Babylon in 586 BC and the end of kingship was the occasion of much reflection and theological speculation among the Deuteronomistic elite, now in exile in the city of Babylon. The disaster was supposedly Yahweh's punishment of their failure to follow the law, and so they created a history of Israel (the books of Joshua through Kings) to illustrate this.
• At the end of the Exile, when the Persians agreed that the Jews could return and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, chapters 1–4 and 29–30 were added and Deuteronomy was made the introductory book to this history, so that a story about a people about to enter the Promised Land became a story about a people about to return to the land. The legal sections of chapters 19–25 were expanded to meet new situations that had arisen, and chapters 31–34 were added as a new conclusion.

Chapters 12–26, containing the Deuteronomic Code, are the earliest section.[18] Since the idea was first put forward by W. M. L. de Wette in 1805, most scholars have accepted that this portion of the book was composed in Jerusalem in the 7th century BC in the context of religious reforms advanced by King Hezekiah (reigned c. 716–687 BC),[19][20] although some have argued for other dates, such as during the reign of his successor Manasseh (687–643 BC) or even much later, such as during the exilic or postexilic periods (597–332 BC).[13][21] The second prologue (Ch. 5–11) was the next section to be composed, and then the first prologue (Ch. 1–4); the chapters following 26 are similarly layered.[18]

Israel–Judah division[edit]​

The prophet Isaiah, active in Jerusalem about a century before Josiah, makes no mention of the Exodus, covenants with God, or disobedience to God's laws. In contrast, Isaiah's contemporary Hosea, active in the northern kingdom of Israel, makes frequent references to the Exodus, the wilderness wanderings, a covenant, the danger of foreign gods and the need to worship Yahweh alone. This discrepancy has led scholars to conclude that these traditions behind Deuteronomy have a northern origin.[22] Whether the Deuteronomic Code was written in Josiah's time (late 7th century BC) or earlier is subject to debate, but many of the individual laws are older than the collection itself.[23] The two poems at chapters 32–33 – the Song of Moses and the Blessing of Moses were probably originally independent.[22]

​

Cut-and-paste. What is your source?

 

[shunyadragon]

The following is amore detailed comprehensive primary reference on the origins of Deuteronomy, referenced in the Wiki article, but it is a bit of a long read. You can read and review it on line, but I cannot cite portions here.

Reconsidering Israel and Judah

www.google.com

Deuteronomy in search of Origins by Thomas Romer

 

[shunyadragon]

We have been through this before. No matter what evidence you are given, you persist in the same erroneous thinking, so what is the point of giving you the same proof again?

Read on I have and will give more references. Do you choose to ignore posts #131 and #134?

 

[shunyadragon]

Cut-and-paste. What is your source?

Respond to the references as cited and not stoic denial and intentional ignorance. It is unethical to simply cut the post and not respond to the substance of the reference.

 

[shunyadragon]

Cut-and-paste. What is your source?

Also, the wiki references provided a number of primary research references. One I referred to in post #134. It is an excellent summary of a number of primary references.

Pleas do not resort to stoic denial and respond to the academic references provided.

 

[DavidSMoore]

It's written in Isaiah 2 that "many people" (עמים רבים) will seek out the temple, the teachings and maybe, depending on the interpretation, the laws of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But that does not mean that the laws are incumbent on them.

What are these teachings, in your opinion?

I must not be understanding your thinking. I always assumed that the law was considered the core teaching of Yahweh. Here's a short excerpt from Zechariah:

Then all who survive of the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Festival of Booths. If any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain upon them.
(Zechariah 14:16-17, NRSVue)

So Zechariah seems very concerned that everyone on Earth should observe Jewish festivals. I assumed that the Festival of Booths was a sort of stand-in for Jewish laws and customs. But I would appreciate it if you could describe to me what it is that you think Isaiah and Zechariah thought the peoples of the world must follow.

 

[shunyadragon]

Cut-and-paste. What is your source?

Accusations of 'cut and paste' represent stoic denial without responding to the academic sources cited with sources noted and an extensive Bibliography documenting the Wiki article as cited,

 

[shunyadragon]

As far as the view of slavery in the NT it is apparent that Torah regulation and standards of slavery of Foreigners and Indentured servatude was still accepted.

The Bible and slavery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In Paul's letters to the Ephesians, Paul motivates early Christian servants to remain loyal and obedient to their masters like they are to Christ. In Ephesians 6:5–8, Paul states "Slaves, be obedient to your human masters with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ".[104] Similar statements regarding obedient slaves can be found in Colossians 3:22–24, 1 Timothy 6:1–2, and Titus 2:9–10.[105][106][107] In Col 4:1, Paul advises members of the church, who are slave masters, to "treat your slaves justly and fairly, realizing that you too have a Master in heaven."[108] Adding to Paul's advice to masters and slaves, he uses slavery as a metaphor. In Romans 1:1, Paul calls himself "a slave of Christ Jesus" and later in Romans 6:18, Paul writes "You have been set free from sin and become slaves to righteousness."[109][110] Also in Galatians, Paul writes on the nature of slavery within the kingdom of God. Galatians 3:28 states: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."[111] We find similar patterns of speech and understanding about slavery in Peter's epistles. In 1 Peter 2:18, Saint Peter writes "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse."[112] In 1 Timothy 1:10, Paul condemns the sexually immoral, abusers of themselves with mankind, liars, perjurers, those that kidnap innocents and sell them into slavery,[113] and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine.