Morality = The Golden Rule

[McBell]

not really, I am hardly the first to see it through esoteric eyes...

Whatever glasses you need to get the results you want, right?

If all you see are trees, that is all you'll get

I see the forest, the lake and the river.

Fair enough.

though Personally, I prefer to look at what is actually there instead of what I want to be there.
But hey, to each their own.

It is a simple truth, nothing exists in isolation
but this is never considered when it comes to things like the subject of this thread
why? because people are far happier to only examine the surface. Ironic really.

What a load self serving crap...

 

[Just_me_Mike]

What a load self serving crap...

Why is it a load? You love to say things like this, but never explain why?

 

[Mr Cheese]

What a load self serving crap...

self serving crap?

um no, its mysticism 101
and physics 101

not that I like joining science and religion much
but in this case, the truth is EXACTLY the same

which makes the golden rule a bit more complex than you'd like it to be

 

[McBell]

Why is it a load? You love to say things like this, but never explain why?

Because it is nothing more than that which one tells oneself to ratify their own beliefs in the face of opposing opinion.

If he had an actual rebuttal to the points in question, one would think he would have presented them instead of all the self serving nonsense.

Anyone can avoid the topic by making claims of being "more in tune" with this or that or about how no one "digs deep enough" to ""really"" understand...

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Because it is nothing more than that which one tells oneself to ratify their own beliefs in the face of opposing opinion.

If he had an actual rebuttal to the points in question, one would think he would have presented them instead of all the self serving nonsense.

Anyone can avoid the topic by making claims of being "more in tune" with this or that or about how no one "digs deep enough" to ""really"" understand...

I have been straight forward. I said present a reason why Golden Rule isn't the same as morals, for any situation. That is the thread, you know, so stay on topic, or stop littering.

 

[McBell]

which makes the golden rule a bit more complex than you'd like it to be

I never once claimed that the Golden Rule was not complex.
I am merely stating the fact that it is not the universal end all you would like for it to be.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Whatever glasses you need to get the results you want, right?


Fair enough.

though Personally, I prefer to look at what is actually there instead of what I want to be there.
But hey, to each their own.

The foolish reject what they see, not what they think;
the wise reject what they think, not what they see.

— Huang Po

Some say that my teaching is nonsense.
Others call it lofty but impractical.
But to those who have looked inside themselves,
this nonsense makes perfect sense.
And to those who put it into practice,
this loftiness has roots that go deep.

I have just three things to teach:
simplicity, patience, compassion.
These three are your greatest treasures.
Simple in actions and in thoughts,
you return to the source of being.
Patient with both friends and enemies,
you accord with the way things are.
Compassionate toward yourself,
you reconcile all beings in the world.

--Tao Te Chin

 

[McBell]

I have been straight forward. I said present a reason why Golden Rule isn't the same as morals, for any situation. That is the thread, you know, so stay on topic, or stop littering.

no, you made this a pat on the back thread by removing the realities of the world in order to promote your warm fuzzies for the Golden rule.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

no, you made this a pat on the back thread by removing the realities of the world in order to promote your warm fuzzies for the Golden rule.

Yet, again as a hypocrite in full swing you give an opinion without any reason why. Which you accuse everyone else of doing.

I showed how the Golden rule applied even when facing a rapist. You did not respond, nor can you respond. So whenever you are ready to stay on topic, in front of the forum, please do. Otherwise keep looking like a fool, doesn't bother me.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I never once claimed that the Golden Rule was not complex.
I am merely stating the fact that it is not the universal end all you would like for it to be.

well of course

we can hold our hands up and say to the sea

"I command you to stop"

build things..and make the sea stop.

But in the end, the sea will flow.

...................

When my Beloved appears,
With what eye do I see Him?
With His eye, not with mine,
For none sees Him except Himself.

— ibn al-`Arabi


One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate,
the Buddha called to him,
“Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?”

Manjusri replied,

“I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?”

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I'll restate the rapist (emotional plea, against the Golden Rule)

If a person is getting raped, it would be incorrect to think the Golden Rule means, the recipient would want to get raped or rape the rapists. That would be silly.

However, the person being raped, would want to defend him or herself, and in union with the Golden Rule, the recipient would want the same for the rapists, if the rapists was being raped.

So the Golden rule in that situation is that defending one's self, would be what one would want for themselves, and for anyone else getting raped, no matter who it is.

If you can, explain why that is wrong.

 

[Mr Cheese]

“When we lose sight of the central element in Christian holiness, which
is love, and when we forget that the way to fulfill the Christian
commandment to love is not something remote and esoteric, but is on the
contrary something immediately before us, then the Christian life
becomes complicated and very confusing.”

-Thomas Merton

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Well it would seem the only one disagreeing with this thread Mestemia is gone. So I guess everyone else agrees. I think that is pretty cool!

 

[Reverend Rick]

***Mod Advisory***​

OK people, lets focus on the topic a little more and on the personal remarks a little less.​

 

[Shadow Wolf]

hardly a point....

:sarcastic more like assuming that every wiccan is a nudist because Gerald Gardener was...

How does the "assuming that every wiccan is a nudist..." have anything to do with my post?
And my point is very valid. "As you would have them do unto you" can potentially leave many holes and opportunities for clashing moralities. Some people don't mind hearing or using foul language, but others get offended by it. That is where the so-called "Golden Rule" is flawed. It is very self-centered, and does not take into consideration that just because you don't mind something happening to you, the next person might absolutely hate it.

 

[Mr Cheese]

How does the "assuming that every wiccan is a nudist..." have anything to do with my post?
And my point is very valid. "As you would have them do unto you" can potentially leave many holes and opportunities for clashing moralities. Some people don't mind hearing or using foul language, but others get offended by it. That is where the so-called "Golden Rule" is flawed. It is very self-centered, and does not take into consideration that just because you don't mind something happening to you, the next person might absolutely hate it.

It is only flawed if we take it as a simple exercise in morals...

ie if the golden rule is JUST about how you eat spinach, how you hitch a ride politely

.....

The golden rule of course is far more profound in that it is about interaction. It transcneds any religion and culture and creed and time.

In so doing the Golden rule speaks to us ultimatly of mystical union
It is no coincidence that the Jews proclaim that the golden rule is the whole of the Torah, and that the rest is commentary.

To follow the golden rule is not to follow morals and dogmas...
but to be within the consciouness of God

because, there is nothing else....

When my Beloved appears,
With what eye do I see Him?
With His eye, not with mine,
For none sees Him except Himself.

— ibn al-`Arabi


One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate,
the Buddha called to him,
“Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?”

Manjusri replied,

“I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?”


but pearls and swine...I'll shut up

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I think it would help if people put a tiny bit of effort to actually apply the Golden Rule in real world situations for a week, then come back and post. Or think about the rape example, it is clear it can be applied to any situation.

Maybe someone can post a situation the GR isn't good for

 

[Adso]

You implied it when you stated that the golden rule is only half of the story...
that Jesus also commanded us to love God etc etc etc
Now if this differs from the Golden rule this means that in order to follow God's will and love God we must act accordingly...

which does allow for things like rape, murder, genocide etc...because we are "following God's will"

of course this is garbage....

but many religious people have used this to justify their actions.

No, I implied nothing of the kind. I never said anything about rape, murder, or genocide as following God's will. If this is how you want to read it, fine, but that is in no way what I am saying.

Of course from an exoteric view you see a seperation between creator and creation from an esoteric stance there is ultimatly no seperation, thus, ultimatly to love one another, is to love God...

so I would continue to argue, there really is only one rule....the others are all implicitly found within it.....

I'm commenting based on itwillends usage. If you want to transform the general definition of the Golden Rule into a matter of mysticism and esotericism to fit your idiosyncratic viewpoint, than there's not really much to discuss as it's an entirely different topic. However, I will say that if the Golden Rule really is cemented in esoteric thought and mysticism, that implies that it will only really be understood by a small number of people and in that regards it fails as a moral system as well.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

No, I implied nothing of the kind. I never said anything about rape, murder, or genocide as following God's will. If this is how you want to read it, fine, but that is in no way what I am saying.

I'm commenting based on itwillends usage. If you want to transform the general definition of the Golden Rule into a matter of mysticism and esotericism to fit your idiosyncratic viewpoint, than there's not really much to discuss as it's an entirely different topic. However, I will say that if the Golden Rule really is cemented in esoteric thought and mysticism, that implies that it will only really be understood by a small number of people and in that regards it fails as a moral system as well.

As a broken record... Please give me an example where the Golden Rule doesn't apply.

 

[Mr Cheese]

No, I implied nothing of the kind. I never said anything about rape, murder, or genocide as following God's will. If this is how you want to read it, fine, but that is in no way what I am saying.

I'm commenting based on itwillends usage. If you want to transform the general definition of the Golden Rule into a matter of mysticism and esotericism to fit your idiosyncratic viewpoint, than there's not really much to discuss as it's an entirely different topic. However, I will say that if the Golden Rule really is cemented in esoteric thought and mysticism, that implies that it will only really be understood by a small number of people and in that regards it fails as a moral system as well.

Please see post 72