Morality

[diosangpastol]

sovereignty a complete independence and self-government...

yes a celestial tyrannical dictator

So you do not subscribe to a sovereign God? So what kind of God do you subscribe to? By the way, are you a Quran or Bible reader/follower if I may ask? Would you mind sharing your verse to me?

lets stay on track shall we, i'll be happy to discuss the difference between homosexuality and pedophiles with you on another thread...how do you know your integrity holds true to objective morality?in your retort you judged, is that a moral act? i thought in order to conform to objective morality, comparing yourself to others isn't being objective...it's being subjected to YOUR biases

Show me in our previous discussions the retort i made, what made you say, "you judged" or that I am being biased?

well according to your flawed book of morals...free will is the enemy of god.... imagine that.

No, sin is the enemy of God (not the sinner per se or his freewill). If the bible is my book of moral, and it clearly presented the presence of sin in mankind. What is your counter reference to regard this as 'flawed'?

so you're perfect? is it any wonder why one would understand that as being arrogant

No I am not perfect, why would you insist that? It is by grace that God that God would call a sinner like me to His sheepfold, no more no less, Christ alone!

so from what i gather the grace of god hasn't given you anything other that an undue sense of moral superiority

No, the grace of God gave me Christ and His superior love for those who repent of their sins, and surrendered their lives in subjection to His 'tyrannical' rule.

no. it is the result of the evolution of morality...

we can discuss how your bronze age god condoned genocide, slavery and human trafficking...

Now you are sounding more familiar to me and now revealing yourself all the more....now show me a Quran or bible verse on your basis of relative morality..cue, i can give you one pertaining to divorce...

one is forgiven and the other is not, tell me what is the difference between this ideology and the idea that "god is on my side", nothing. as i am sure you will agree. but then tell me what is the differnce between that and a fundamentalist religious terrorist?....ahh, now there is a difference...what is it then?

The forgiven sinner should have known and become recipient of God's love, forgiveness, mercy and redemption to salvation through Jesus Christ and you will know them by the Christ-like fruits of the spirit lifestyle. The other one is just a "second-rate, trying hard copy-cat" who exalt and trust on their own righteousness rather than Christ's, and others who exalt and trust on their religiou and pious acts rather than on what Christ's did and sacrifice on the cross of Calvary..

if you are not looking at your moral acts to justify yourself before god why are you judging the moral acts of others?

Why are you so defensive my friend? Where in our previous discussions in this thread did I judge you or others based on my own?

 

[waitasec]

So you do not subscribe to a sovereign God?

absolutely not. from what i gather nature is indifferent so why would i even consider myself to be that important that it would be concerned if i believed in it or had faith in it

for this very reason...

So what kind of God do you subscribe to? By the way, are you a Quran or Bible reader/follower if I may ask? Would you mind sharing your verse to me?

how can anyone label the unknown? why would they want to?
to justify their shortcomings? is it because the realization that we are alone in the universe is a scary thought?
and to hold on to the bronze age ideals of the unknown doesn't make sense to me at all. we have the knowledge these ignorant people lacked.
we know how disease is formed, we can forecast the weather, we know how wind is made and how earth quakes happen and how volcanoes erupt.
we know we are not the center of the universe and that there are other galaxies in this seemingly eternal universe...
we know how small we are. so this undue sense of importance is not justified by any means.

Show me in our previous discussions the retort i made, what made you say, "you judged" or that I am being biased?

1st off you used a derogatory word... isn't that being judgmental?
2nd you put a group of people in the same category as deviants
3rd because you judged a certain group of people you are comparing your morality as superior, which isn't conforming to subjective morality it's only a weak attempt at demeaning the inalienable rights of others.

the homos and pedophiliacs may claim the same integrity you are holding true, and actually very dignified in promoting their pro-choice, gay rights and child's play lifestyle

there is a difference between consenting adults and an adult taking advantage of a child...

No, sin is the enemy of God (not the sinner per se or his freewill). If the bible is my book of moral, and it clearly presented the presence of sin in mankind. What is your counter reference to regard this as 'flawed'?

you said

Man's fallen freewill lead to acts and ability to do good and/or evil

it is a ongoing theme in the christian bible that when someone acts on their own they are in disobedience or unable to satisfy god
it's as if god says, no matter how hard you try you will never be good enough unless jesus lives through you...
personally, i find that to be very insulting and offensive

No I am not perfect, why would you insist that? It is by grace that God that God would call a sinner like me to His sheepfold, no more no less, Christ alone!

yet you can judge others objectively because of your moral superiority?

No, the grace of God gave me Christ and His superior love for those who repent of their sins, and surrendered their lives in subjection to His 'tyrannical' rule.

so you forgive those who conform to your beliefs because of gods superior love?

Now you are sounding more familiar to me and now revealing yourself all the more....now show me a Quran or bible verse on your basis of relative morality..cue, i can give you one pertaining to divorce...

One could purchase a slave from a foreign nation or from foreigners living with them. These slaves would remain in slavery forever, unless the owner chooses to frees them An Israelite who was a slave could be freed by a family member or by himself if he had the money. The cost of freeing a slave was computed on the basis of the number of years to the next Jubilee Year; this could be 1 to 50 years. Male Israelite slaves were automatically freed during the Jubilee Year. Depending upon which verse was being followed, female Israelite slaves might also have been freed at that time as well. Foreign slaves were out of luck.
Exodus 21:1-4: "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. *If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself."

*i'd consider that human trafficking, what about you?

Sexual Activity with an Engaged Female Slave: A man who rapes or engages in consensual sex with a female slave who is engaged to be married to another man must sacrifice an animal in the temple in order to obtain God's forgiveness. The female slave would be whipped. There is apparently no punishment or ritual animal killing required if the female slave were not engaged; men could rape such slaves with impunity.
Leviticus 19:20-22: "And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him."

What the Old Testament says about slavery

numbers 31:1-18
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
"Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

What the Bible says about Pedophilia...
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

i would be interested to hear your take on divorce...

The forgiven sinner should have known and become recipient of God's love, forgiveness, mercy and redemption to salvation through Jesus Christ and you will know them by the Christ-like fruits of the spirit lifestyle. The other one is just a "second-rate, trying hard copy-cat" who exalt and trust on their own righteousness rather than Christ's, and others who exalt and trust on their religiou and pious acts rather than on what Christ's did and sacrifice on the cross of Calvary..

so we are created sick and demanded to be healed...?

Why are you so defensive my friend? Where in our previous discussions in this thread did I judge you or others based on my own?

i'm not being defensive just being honest.
you are obviously unaware that by using a derogatory word you have already judged people based on your prejudices not some objective morality.

 

[Wombat]

"Justice" is nothing more than another word for revenge.

Hmmm...an unusual moral conception of justice...let’s put it to the test.
An innocent individual is accused of a serious offence and subsequently given Due Process/Fair Hearing in the attempt to facilitate ‘justice’. “Revenge” component?........zero.
A guilty individual is accused of a serious offence and subsequently given Due Process/Fair Hearing in the attempt to facilitate ‘justice’. “Revenge” component?...the victim/family may be seeking revenge/retribution...but the court/community is seeking prevention of further crime.
In both cases ‘justice’ hinges on determination of guilt/innocence...and “revenge” is not an essential or key player.
Then there is ‘social justice’- provision for the disadvantaged or disabled, equity, equal opportunity and the opposition to or dismantling of prejudice, discrimination and subjugation. All dependent on basic justice principles....and “revenge” just doesn’t come into it.
So, no, even at a cursory glance "Justice" is not “nothing more than another word for revenge.”

Ah yes, the ever popular appeal to popularity fallacy.

Makes no sense...The Golden Rule/Law of Reciprocity is not put forward on the basis of or “appeal” to “popularity”...While the principle may be commonplace/known to many there is no way of telling how “popular” it is... if it is held/believed/lived by the majority or minority is an irrelevant unknown...And certainly not the reason it was put forward.

"But then, the golden rule fails when one meets a masochist..

Not at all. The golden rule no more “fails when one meets a masochist” than it does when one meets an alcoholic. One is not >obliged< to provide the alcoholic with a drink nor the masochist with satisfaction of his/her desires.
On the contrary, the golden rule obliges the consideration- “If I was an alcoholic or a masochist and seeking booze or pain from another...would it be good for me/in my best interests to have the other meet my desires”?
The exception would be in the case of mutually consenting adults engaged in masochistic activities... and even here there are moral and justice limits. One is extremely unlikely to get away with- “But Judge...It was a masochistic relationship and my partner wanted me to subject them to so much pain that they are crippled/dead”.
The golden rule not only holds “when one meets a masochist”....it shines.

"Funny how people ignore little things like that.

It would have been “funny”...if your pov had stood up to even a little bit of examination and rebuttal.

But it didn't.

 

[Father Heathen]

"Justice" is nothing more than another word for revenge.

Is compensation a form of revenge?

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

"Justice" is nothing more than another word for revenge.

No it isnt, punishment could be maybe.

Justice itself is a means by which we enforce the rights of others by allowing people whom have a complaint with an individual or individuals to take them to task...when they allegedly break laws.

 

[Frank Merton]

How do you decide whether something is right, wrong, good, bad, useful, unuseful and so forth? Where do you get your morality from?

Something is wrong and should be avoided if it does harm. In the end we must assess each situation ourselves, as objectively and generously and intelligently as possible.

For the most part we have neither the time nor the ability to make such assessments all the time, so we are guided by habit, by social norms, and by the ethical pronouncements of sages, always remembering as we use these tools that in the end our choices are our own, with consequences we must expect.

 

[Frank Merton]

No it isnt, punishment could be maybe.

Justice itself is a means by which we enforce the rights of others by allowing people whom have a complaint with an individual or individuals to take them to task...when they allegedly break laws.

I think it sad to see people demanding justice. We get no justice; the world is what it is. "Life is a *****, and then you die."

We can organize society to mete out justice pragmatically, to discourage or encourage certain behavior, but that is a human matter and the justice it involves is a human invention.

 

[Wombat]

I think it sad to see people demanding justice. We get no justice; the world is what it is. "Life is a *****, and then you die.".

You/humanity would be 'happy' with the alternative- resignation to injustice?

Don't want/seek justice through fair due process/fair hearing? Would prefer/be happier with -"I says he dang well done it- string him up"?

Don't want/seek justice through collective social action? The confrontation and curbing of crime/corruption, the legislation against supression, the attempted protection of the weak? Would prefer/be happier with a free for all/fend for yourself-"We get no justice; the world is what it is."?

I am saddened that in a thread dedicated to the exploration of 'morality'...'justice' is twice held in such low/negative regard.

We can organize society to mete out justice pragmatically, to discourage or encourage certain behavior, but that is a human matter and the justice it involves is a human invention.

I'm not sure what purpose this statement serves...by "human matter" and "human invention" are you suggesting no 'god/gods' are involved?

If so, quite frankly, I hold the issue/existance of god/s to the merrits and provision of justice to be an irrelevant distraction. That we may well live in a godless universe does not necessitate that we must live in a "world is what it is" realm of injustice.

I don't care if the notions of 'justice'/the golden rule/reciprocity arose from real god/s, stories about fake god/s, aliens, humans or squirrels....those notions and moral principles make the world a far safer, better, fairer and more compassionate place than it was and pursuit of those principles is far preferable to “we get no justice,the world is what it is ” resignation to injustice.

"Life is a *****, and then you die."?

Nhaaaaaa.....The future's so bright we will have to wear shades!

 

[Frank Merton]

You/humanity would be 'happy' with the alternative- resignation to injustice?

Your who statement (dare I call it a rant?) is about what you like and what you dislike.

That is an interesting approach to philosophy -- if I like it it is true, if I don't like it it is false.

 

[MissAlice]

My morality comes from my sense of reason.

 

[Wombat]

Your who statement (dare I call it a rant?) is about what you like and what you dislike.

That is an interesting approach to philosophy -- if I like it it is true, if I don't like it it is false.

Well...yours is an interesting approach to discussion, dialogue, debate and argument Frank.
You ignore all points and question (6 that seek to explore/understand your pov) and all that examines wether ‘justice’ is a principle worthy of being “liked/disliked”.
Without saying a word as to how or why it is so you dismiss all as a “rant” and resort to straw man “approach to philosophy”- “if I like it it is true, if I don't like it it is false.”
Fact is I sought to examine reasons for liking ‘justice’ and sought to question, examine and understand your reasons for not.
You do your own “philosophy” of dislike of justice a profound injustice through your inability to explain or defend it .

 

[IAMDONE]

How do you decide whether something is right, wrong, good, bad, useful, unuseful and so forth? Where do you get your morality from?

Wisdom...Duh.
We are all born with one mission, to obtain happiness.
We are also born with a brain that does things that screw our brain chemistry while offering a little comfort, joy or peace that we call happiness.
When we abstain from these little pleasures that cause problems we gain real pleasure and literally and metaphorically become more able to see which ultimately leads to the developing of wisdom which is the most valuable thing there is.
Example.
If you killed the people you hate you will cause more of a disturbance deep within you no matter if you are happy that the person/s are dead you will still have hurt youself more than them.
Not all moral standards are totally correct though like for instance being selfish.
Doing good things for others is the most selfish thing you can do but it is the best thing you can do.
It helps you as you become happier and it helps someone else that is now happier.
We are trying to evolve into friggin gods but the monkeys inside of us are angry and for no reason.

 

[diosangpastol]

absolutely not. from what i gather nature is indifferent so why would i even consider myself to be that important that it would be concerned if i believed in it or had faith in it

for this very reason...

Hmmmmnnn....nature....not God?.

how can anyone label the unknown? why would they want to?

because they are more intelligent to know that the creations around them is not created by random chance...

to justify their shortcomings? is it because the realization that we are alone in the universe is a scary thought?

Far from it, their fear is more founded on the presence of something or someone, who will exact judgment at some point in time. This fear is embedded somewhat on their conscience, and its manifestation is call GUILT.

and to hold on to the bronze age ideals of the unknown doesn't make sense to me at all. we have the knowledge these ignorant people lacked.
we know how disease is formed, we can forecast the weather, we know how wind is made and how earth quakes happen and how volcanoes erupt.
we know we are not the center of the universe and that there are other galaxies in this seemingly eternal universe...
we know how small we are. so this undue sense of importance is not justified by any means.

You just described the tip of the iceberg we called creations. Ignorance is relative, but in comparison to the universe we are in, its origins, functions, precisions..., all of us are ignorant.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

I think it sad to see people demanding justice. We get no justice; the world is what it is. "Life is a *****, and then you die."

The world is what we collectively make it....

I personally believe (someone has to) that tis better to light a candle than to curse the darkness...

Justice is a human invention, but that doesn't mean it is meaningless...in fact it is as meaningful as we choose to make it.
Our whole civilization is based upon mere ideas written on bits of paper, codified social contracts...that we call laws...that we all imagine are real and pressing.
If people are prepared to act in the name of justice as thousands of decent police officers putting their lives and health on the line do every day..and countless brave civilians/citizens who make arrests too...then our society will be a safer place where people are free to live their lives without fear of intimidation, death or violation of property or their own selves and their loved ones...a real and meaningful effect.

 

[Wombat]

If people are prepared to act in the name of justice as thousands of decent police officers putting their lives and health on the line do every day..and countless brave civilians/citizens who make arrests too...then our society will be a safer place where people are free to live their lives without fear of intimidation, death or violation of property or their own selves and their loved ones...a real and meaningful effect.

Thank you for articulating a moral code/principle drawn from a sense of justice...it makes sense to me and appears to go a long way towards answering the original question-
‘How do you decide whether something is right, wrong, good, bad, useful, unuseful and so forth? Where do you get your morality from?”

There are a long list of people in a huge range of occupations and endeavours that fit the same criteria you describe...performing roles that have “a real and meaningful effect”- “right, good, useful and moral”...just acts and acts of justice.
The world is indeed "what we collectively make it"...thank you for lighting a candle.

 

[Frank Merton]

The world is what we collectively make it....

This is partly true, but volcanoes and typhoons still come, we still age and die, and criminals and the foolish will continue being born. A little stoic resignation helps one take a more sober and rational view of things that happen.

I personally believe (someone has to) that tis better to light a candle than to curse the darkness...

Sometimes I like the darkness.

Justice is a human invention, but that doesn't mean it is meaningless.

In a cosmic frame, all human invention is meaningless. (In a few million years all trace of what we do will be gone).

Of course that doesn't make it meaningless to us. If the policeman detains me, I want my lawyer just as much as the next man. The point however is to be pragmatic about it.

 

[waitasec]

Hmmmmnnn....nature....not God?.

whatever it is, has it proven itself indifferent or not?

because they are more intelligent to know that the creations around them is not created by random chance...

why are you assuming purpose...what is the evidence for this claim?

Far from it, their fear is more founded on the presence of something or someone, who will exact judgment at some point in time. This fear is embedded somewhat on their conscience, and its manifestation is call GUILT.

exactly.
tell me why would a supreme being revert to ultimatums to manipulate the desired outcome of control? this supreme being doesn't know very much about the human psyche. once it reverts to fear mongering it ceases to be a supreme being and becomes an extension of mans insecurities by using tyrannical methods by the use of fear.

You just described the tip of the iceberg we called creations. Ignorance is relative, but in comparison to the universe we are in, its origins, functions, precisions..., all of us are ignorant.

indeed we are ignorant...but it is also arrogant to assume it's origins and functions, as if there were a purpose or having the audacity to think we have the capabilities to understand when we ask "why". science has only begun to understand the how...
but what we do know is how little we know and how small we are and insignificant to the workings of the cosmos and the micro world. for our very existence is hanging on the balance of a very thin line in respect to their circumstance.
if anything humanity needs a dose of humility, for no one is singled out by faith to be on the right side, thats just an arrogant notion and arrogance doesn't go well with knowledge. knowledge is attained by humility... and how is one humble when they assume a divine purpose and assume we could understand the why of it all.

i have a kitten who is the most audacious and arrogant creature known to me. it's sole purpose is to become a fighting machine...it thinks my fingers are there to play with and my feet are there to attack. it even thinks the vacuum cleaner is her nemesis... this is her reality...is her reality of any concern to me? would i hold her accountable for not understanding my reality? so if there was a 1st cause, call it god, nature or the universe, do you really think it is concerned with how we live our daily lives? it a bronze age idealism that you subscribe to if you do... not to mention a tyrannical dictator for which you clearly established believing in when saying

their fear is more founded on the presence of something or someone, who will exact judgment at some point in time.

no my friend, our conscience, integrity and self dignity will be our judge...
no scapegoat to rely on. we only have ourselves to blame.

 

[Nadia Faiazova]

Hi! In my life I apply principles I learned from God's Word, the Bible.

 

[waitasec]

Hi! In my life I apply principles I learned from God's Word, the Bible.

interesting? if you don't mind me asking...
how would you know the meaning behind these principles if you don't have the wisdom of life experience? wouldn't experience teach you what to look for in order to avoid any un-pleasantries?

 

[Wombat]

If the policeman detains me, I want my lawyer just as much as the next man.

"I think it sad to see people demanding justice. We get no justice; the world is what it is. "Life is a *****, and then you die." Frank Merton

:sarcastic