Morality

[waitasec]

The bible plainly stated that the created man are sinners, and come short of the glory of God. God is holy, and he desires man to be reconciled with Him in holiness. The term: ‘Ye must be born again” (John 3:6-7) refer to man’s reconciliation with God in spirit, through Christ, where man will be born in spirit, in the newness of life which is in Christ. For those who are born of the flesh desires the will of the flesh, but those who are born of the spirit desires the will of the spirit (John 3:6)

seems to me then, you ascribe to a celestial dictatorship...

Man is continually evil, the bible doesn’t lie. Tell me if you haven’t committed any sin that will make you guilt-free come judgment day. Example, have you lied to your parents? Spouse? Kids?

i have something called integrity which lets me know when i have over stepped my boundaries. i also have something called dignity which inspires me to be the best person i can be.

do yo have children? well i do. i know that children are the most giving and forgiving. they are also creatures without biases.... sure they are not perfect but to say every inclination of a child is evil is simply a fallacy.

You may desire to continually do good to your neighbors (that is commendable), but are you able to do it without mistake or without hurting anybody in your lifetime?

are you?

Can you elaborate on this question please?

what moral act can you do that i cannot?

your question (above) makes it look like you are able to be perfect, that is very misleading for no one is perfect, not even a believer...so what difference does it make if one person is good for goodness sake and the other is good because someone else makes them good...at the end of the day you are responsible for your actions, no one else, especially a scapegoat. at the end of the day you try to be good...

 

[waitasec]

The bible plainly stated that the created man are sinners, and come short of the glory of God. God is holy, and he desires man to be reconciled with Him in holiness. The term: ‘Ye must be born again” (John 3:6-7) refer to man’s reconciliation with God in spirit, through Christ, where man will be born in spirit, in the newness of life which is in Christ. For those who are born of the flesh desires the will of the flesh, but those who are born of the spirit desires the will of the spirit (John 3:6)


"Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"



Man is continually evil, the bible doesn’t lie. Tell me if you haven’t committed any sin that will make you guilt-free come judgment day. Example, have you lied to your parents? Spouse? Kids?

"Psalms 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually .”

You may desire to continually do good to your neighbors (that is commendable), but are you able to do it without mistake or without hurting anybody in your lifetime? It is not a matter of if, but when you will realize that you have sinned, and found wanting in the eyes of God.




Can you elaborate on this question please?

Anyway, when Nicodemus (a man of authority) asked Christ all these matters, Christ answered simply “Ye must be born again (John 3:7)” (a living relationship with a living and resurrected Christ), or simply, to put Christ in the center of your life.

just a thought here...
who's judging who...meaning who is undermining who?
i am only saying i am no better than you and you are no better than me
why do you give yourself an undue sense of moral superiority...?
when in fact there is nothing you are capable of doing that i am not capable of either

 

[diosangpastol]

seems to me then, you ascribe to a celestial dictatorship...

If that is how you term God's sovereignty...

i have something called integrity which lets me know when i have over stepped my boundaries. i also have something called dignity which inspires me to be the best person i can be.

How do you know that your integrity holds true and in conformity with what is objective morality? For example, the homos and pedophiliacs may claim the same integrity you are holding true, and actually very dignified in promoting their pro-choice, gay rights and child's play lifestyle, some have even march through the pulpit leadership...

do yo have children? well i do. i know that children are the most giving and forgiving. they are also creatures without biases.... sure they are not perfect but to say every inclination of a child is evil is simply a fallacy.

Man's fallen freewill lead to acts and ability to do good and/or evil. Man is accountable for his actions, whether in actual deeds or even thoughts of the heart.

are you?

Yes, I admit that I am a sinner as the bible says. My integrity is like a very brittle glass, it can break with just a little ounce of sin. God has shielded this glass with the blood of Christ...

what moral act can you do that i cannot?

You are barking on a wrong tree, you may be much much more morally righteous than me, I can and I will admit that....but I am not looking at my own moral acts to justify myself before God, I am looking at the grace of God who loved me, who gave His only begotten Son to die on the cross for me, and I am looking forward to Christ's justification for me, not because of what I did or any moral acts I performed, but because I trusted on what He (Christ) did for me which satisfies the full requirement of sin's penalty and God's justice.

your question (above) makes it look like you are able to be perfect, that is very misleading for no one is perfect, not even a believer

Now you said it yourself, nobody is perfect, I fully agree. Shall we agree further that the imperfectness is the result of man's sinful nature?

...so what difference does it make if one person is good for goodness sake and the other is good because someone else makes them good...

The other one is unforgiven sinner who puts his trust on his own righteousness, the other one is a forgiven sinner who puts his trust on Christ righteousness.... they are heavenly apart.

at the end of the day you are responsible for your actions, no one else, especially a scapegoat. at the end of the day you try to be good...

Yes indeed, everybody will be made accountable for their deeds, but to those who put their trust in Christ, the condemnation or judgment is already passed (Romans 8:1).

just a thought here...
who's judging who...meaning who is undermining who?
i am only saying i am no better than you and you are no better than me
why do you give yourself an undue sense of moral superiority...?
when in fact there is nothing you are capable of doing that i am not capable of either

Don't get me wrong, I reiterate:

You are barking on a wrong tree, you may be much much more morally righteous than me, I can and I will admit that....but I am not looking at my own moral acts to justify myself before God, I am looking at the grace of God who loved me, who gave His only begotten Son to die on the cross for me, and I am looking forward to Christ's justification for me, not because of what I did or any moral acts I performed, but because I trusted on what He (Christ) did for me which satisfies the full requirement of sin's penalty and God's justice.


"If anyone is in Christ, old things are passed away, old things are become new"

 

[waitasec]

How do you know that your integrity holds true and in conformity with what is objective morality? For example, the homos and pedophiliacs may claim the same integrity you are holding true, and actually very dignified in promoting their pro-choice, gay rights and child's play lifestyle, some have even march through the pulpit leadership...

you have just proven my point...


i never claimed to be more moral than anyone...
why do you? there is nothing you can do that i cannot.

 

[stupified]

There is only one moral truth. Treat others as you would wish to be treated.

 

[McBell]

There is only one moral truth. Treat others as you would wish to be treated.

Until you meet a masochist...

 

[waitasec]

If that is how you term God's sovereignty...

sovereignty a complete independence and self-government...
yes a celestial tyrannical dictator

How do you know that your integrity holds true and in conformity with what is objective morality? For example, the homos and pedophiliacs may claim the same integrity you are holding true, and actually very dignified in promoting their pro-choice, gay rights and child's play lifestyle, some have even march through the pulpit leadership...

lets stay on track shall we, i'll be happy to discuss the difference between homosexuality and pedophiles with you on another thread...


how do you know your integrity holds true to objective morality?
in your retort you judged, is that a moral act? i thought in order to conform to objective morality, comparing yourself to others isn't being objective...it's being subjected to YOUR biases

Man's fallen freewill lead to acts and ability to do good and/or evil. Man is accountable for his actions, whether in actual deeds or even thoughts of the heart.

well according to your flawed book of morals...free will is the enemy of god.... imagine that.

Yes, I admit that I am a sinner as the bible says. My integrity is like a very brittle glass, it can break with just a little ounce of sin. God has shielded this glass with the blood of Christ...

so you're perfect? is it any wonder why one would understand that as being arrogant

You are barking on a wrong tree, you may be much much more morally righteous than me, I can and I will admit that....but I am not looking at my own moral acts to justify myself before God, I am looking at the grace of God who loved me, who gave His only begotten Son to die on the cross for me, and I am looking forward to Christ's justification for me, not because of what I did or any moral acts I performed, but because I trusted on what He (Christ) did for me which satisfies the full requirement of sin's penalty and God's justice.

so from what i gather the grace of god hasn't given you anything other that an undue sense of moral superiority

Now you said it yourself, nobody is perfect, I fully agree. Shall we agree further that the imperfectness is the result of man's sinful nature?

no. it is the result of the evolution of morality...
we can discuss how your bronze age god condoned genocide, slavery and human trafficking...

The other one is unforgiven sinner who puts his trust on his own righteousness, the other one is a forgiven sinner who puts his trust on Christ righteousness.... they are heavenly apart.

one is forgiven and the other is not, tell me what is the difference between this ideology and the idea that "god is on my side", nothing. as i am sure you will agree. but then tell me what is the differnce between that and a fundamentalist religious terrorist?....ahh, now there is a difference...what is it then?

You are barking on a wrong tree, you may be much much more morally righteous than me, I can and I will admit that....but I am not looking at my own moral acts to justify myself before God, I am looking at the grace of God who loved me, who gave His only begotten Son to die on the cross for me, and I am looking forward to Christ's justification for me, not because of what I did or any moral acts I performed, but because I trusted on what He (Christ) did for me which satisfies the full requirement of sin's penalty and God's justice.


"If anyone is in Christ, old things are passed away, old things are become new

if you are not looking at your moral acts to justify yourself before god why are you judging the moral acts of others?

 

[KnightOwl]

How do you know that your integrity holds true and in conformity with what is objective morality? For example, the homos and pedophiliacs may claim the same integrity you are holding true, and actually very dignified in promoting their pro-choice, gay rights and child's play lifestyle, some have even march through the pulpit leadership...

Waitasec passed for now on this, so I'll address it because really it is simple. Since morality has to do with as I stated much earlier in this thread, empathy it becomes a matter of knowing what does and does not harm others. I am not a homosexual, polygamist or pedophile. However, when two or more mature consenting adults decide to have sex together, nobody is harmed. The evidence is very strong that the vast majority of adult-child sex encounters is harmful. Therefore even if I were attracted to young children, I wouldn't act on those desires anymore that I would steal from someone even though I desire more money.

In a world where we're seeing destruction to our ecosystem due to overpopulation, homosexuals in fact might be said to be doing the rest of us breeders a favor. And just because most people don't want a polygamist relationship, doesn't mean it doesn't work for a few. It does. Certainly we can't point to one man one woman heterosexual marriages as the most successful thing in the world.

 

[Nooj]

For example, the homos and pedophiliacs may claim the same integrity you are holding true, and actually very dignified in promoting their pro-choice, gay rights and child's play lifestyle, some have even march through the pulpit leadership...

Please don't use that term.

 

[diosangpastol]

how come i cannot post long one... hmn ...

 

[LuisDantas]

When I say I value something, I mean that I like it. Value in my understanding is just another synonym of like. When I asked why I should value mutually beneficial actions over selfish actions, I meant why should I prefer to do one over the other.

I don't really care if it's useful, I want to know if it's true. You may value what is beneficial to you and others, but I want to know why I should value what is beneficial and useful.

Then it seems to me that you are using the wrong word. It is something like "desirability" or even "demand" that you want, not value.

 

[Sunstone]

Ideally, the goal of morality is to promote human well-being. But few moralities are consistent in doing so. I happen to think some humanist moralities come the closest to the ideal though.

 

[Wombat]

How do you decide whether something is right, wrong, good, bad, useful, unuseful and so forth? Where do you get your morality from?

I am inclined towards those answers that have already indicated parental/social conditioning and the development of empathy and experience - reason and compassion.

But I am also a little surprised that 70 post into the thread and, unless I have missed it, no one has mentioned ‘Justice’-“The best beloved of all things”.

I would suggest, central and essential to the development and understanding of ‘morality’- individual and collective- is the development of justice and reciprocity.

I may have all the "empathy/compassion" and "reason/experience" in the world for another...but unless I act upon it and attempt to facilitate justice for the other...I doubt I can claim ‘moral’ or ethical behaviour.



To this end-
The "Golden Rule"- Ethics of Reciprocity

Versions of the Golden Rule in 21 world religions

 

[McBell]

I am inclined towards those answers that have already indicated parental/social conditioning and the development of empathy and experience - reason and compassion.

But I am also a little surprised that 70 post into the thread and, unless I have missed it, no one has mentioned ‘Justice’-“The best beloved of all things”.

I would suggest, central and essential to the development and understanding of ‘morality’- individual and collective- is the development of justice and reciprocity.

I may have all the "empathy/compassion" and "reason/experience" in the world for another...but unless I act upon it and attempt to facilitate justice for the other...I doubt I can claim ‘moral’ or ethical behaviour.

"Justice" is nothing more than another word for revenge.

To this end-
The "Golden Rule"- Ethics of Reciprocity

Versions of the Golden Rule in 21 world religions

Ah yes, the ever popular appeal to popularity fallacy.

But then, the golden rule fails when one meets a masochist.
Funny how people ignore little things like that.

 

[Nooj]

Then it seems to me that you are using the wrong word. It is something like "desirability" or even "demand" that you want, not value.

What's the difference?

 

[LuisDantas]

What's the difference?

People don't consistently crave constructive things or situations and reject destructive ones.

 

[Nooj]

Can you find the definition in here that matches what you say value means?

 

[LuisDantas]

The first.

The quality (positive or negative) that renders something desirable or valuable

 

[Nooj]

How does that fit into your previous statement:

Value comes from usefulness. Which is supposed to rise when something is beneficial.

But the definition says that a negative quality can also make something valuable. And it uses the word 'desirable'. It seems to fit my understanding better.

 

[LuisDantas]

It seems to me that the definition means "negative quality" in the sense of absence of some property (quality), not as a moral judgement.