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Morality

i think it is within a persons mind to know what is universally right or wrong (we're born with a morality meter). different societies might have differing laws or customs, but once the human mind is given the slightest indication of awareness that it has violated any of those customs or laws, it will automatically seek out more knowledge to find how to comply or impress
 

diosangpastol

Dios - ang - Pastol
why then are christians so controlling and worried about their religious freedoms more they are about helping the needy?

missionaries are for the purpose of gaining converts, a contrived act as far as i am concerned.
atheistic charities exists as well, there are more religious ones simply for the fact there are more religious people than non religious people.

i just don't see how religion, or a supposed relationship with a supreme deity, sets anyone apart from an unbeliever in any way shape or form.

Christ is the cure for the cancer of society (sin), social charities are just pain relievers, not bad in itself but will not target the root of the sickness....Churches are targeted for those who are spiritually sick....nevertheless, it won't hurt if churches would also provide some social charities in the context of catering them in to the bigger problem of the patient, the (sinful and Christless) heart problem.


"Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk"
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Christ is the cure for the cancer of society (sin), social charities are just pain relievers, not bad in itself but will not target the root of the sickness....Churches are targeted for those who are spiritually sick....nevertheless, it won't hurt if churches would also provide some social charities in the context of catering them in to the bigger problem of the patient, the (sinful and Christless) heart problem.


"Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk"

see i don't buy into the notion that we are created sick and demanded to be healed. what does spiritually sick mean? you say sin, buy what is that really?
everyone of us has a moral compass. however the bible says "every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood" which is a lie...

if faith is supposed to make a difference or set the believers apart from the unbelievers, what can they do that i cannot?
 

McBell

Unbound
Christ is the cure for the cancer of society (sin), social charities are just pain relievers, not bad in itself but will not target the root of the sickness....Churches are targeted for those who are spiritually sick....nevertheless, it won't hurt if churches would also provide some social charities in the context of catering them in to the bigger problem of the patient, the (sinful and Christless) heart problem.


"Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk"
Guess that depends upon your definition of "sin"?
To me, sin is nothing more than going against the will/wishes of your chosen deity.

To claim that all who do not follow your chosen deities rules are sinning is nothing more than an exercise in arrogance.

Not to be offensive, but it seems to me that the claim al people are born sinful and thus require your church for 'medicine' sounds more like a con than actual truth.
Especially given the arguments against the reality of said "born sinful" condition.
 

diosangpastol

Dios - ang - Pastol
see i don't buy into the notion that we are created sick and demanded to be healed. what does spiritually sick mean? you say sin, buy what is that really?

The bible plainly stated that the created man are sinners, and come short of the glory of God. God is holy, and he desires man to be reconciled with Him in holiness. The term: ‘Ye must be born again” (John 3:6-7) refer to man’s reconciliation with God in spirit, through Christ, where man will be born in spirit, in the newness of life which is in Christ. For those who are born of the flesh desires the will of the flesh, but those who are born of the spirit desires the will of the spirit (John 3:6)


"Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

everyone of us has a moral compass. however the bible says "every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood" which is a lie...

Man is continually evil, the bible doesn’t lie. Tell me if you haven’t committed any sin that will make you guilt-free come judgment day. Example, have you lied to your parents? Spouse? Kids?

"Psalms 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually .”

You may desire to continually do good to your neighbors (that is commendable), but are you able to do it without mistake or without hurting anybody in your lifetime? It is not a matter of if, but when you will realize that you have sinned, and found wanting in the eyes of God.


if faith is supposed to make a difference or set the believers apart from the unbelievers, what can they do that i cannot?

Can you elaborate on this question please?

Anyway, when Nicodemus (a man of authority) asked Christ all these matters, Christ answered simply “Ye must be born again (John 3:7)” (a living relationship with a living and resurrected Christ), or simply, to put Christ in the center of your life.
 

diosangpastol

Dios - ang - Pastol
Guess that depends upon your definition of "sin"?
To me, sin is nothing more than going against the will/wishes of your chosen deity.

I will speak in general terms, sin is the breach of an objective morality (e.g. moral law) and breach of your deity's holiness (whatever or whoever it is you believe in).

To claim that all who do not follow your chosen deities rules are sinning is nothing more than an exercise in arrogance.

Strawman and fallacy, even a universalist, those who believe in the universality of gods in many names have a standard set of morality, even an atheist has to subscribe to some form societal requirements or conformance otherwise they shall be charged of sinning against the law of man. The requirement of the law itself (or the requirement of deities) is not arrogance in itself. The blatant and rebellious disregard of it (moral laws and deity) is arrogance. In short, violation of law without regard to its consequence or sinning with impunity is arrogance, yes, that is what you call arrogance. Exercise of moral law is human necessity and a natural requirement for orderly and reasonably equitable political and societal relationships. That is, moral law is a necessity even at the onset of human history, regardless of whether in an absolute (theist view) or a relative (theist and atheist view) aspect of it. Even the most heinous atheist in Stalin didn’t preclude him to require obedience to his communist law and punish those who breach the law. Even a loving father in you will impose penalty or punishment to your kids for breaking your simple rule of going to bed early, now I ask you, will you call this earthly father arrogant for telling his kids that they are breaking (sinning) his rules??

Not to be offensive, but it seems to me that the claim al people are born sinful and thus require your church for 'medicine' sounds more like a con than actual truth.
Especially given the arguments against the reality of said "born sinful" condition.

You are gravely mistaken, Church is not the medicine, Christ is. Church is just a congregation of recovered weaklings who are worshipping and drawing strength from the vine (Christ), and drawing strength from each other through fellowship, prayer and breaking of bread.

What is actual truth then?

"Roma 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: "

Is it better for us to throw away the bible then, and believe in some other form of literature, where man is glorified to nirvana of their choice, to whatever god that will please him, under his own term.. Now that is delusion, in the purest atheistic sense, a man subscribing to a belief out of his own imaginations and his own terms. We have a faith that is enabled by the spirit of the Lord, faith that enable the blind (sinners) to see the truth and freedom which is in Christ, affirmed by the certainties of promises written in the bible, a written revelations of God’s terms and will for man, a book untainted of man’s vile imaginations (the moral objectivity of the bible will depend on your faith that the bible is inerrant, holy spirit inspired and God-breathed word of God).

The bible indeed is very imposing on man's freewill, especially imposing to those who have not known the liberality of grace that is in Christ Jesus!!
In Christ, the bondage of sin is broken…for Christ resurrected triumphant and victorious over sin, the reason we really need Christ to save us from the penalties of sin. For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus. Those who have Christ are passed from death to life. Christ is the shepherd of His lost sheep…
 

Nooj

none
If you value something that is harmful more than something beneficial.

For example, liking crack more than being clean.
 

David M

Well-Known Member
You know that the bible contains genocide, slavery, and sexism right?

And abortion if the woman has committed adultery, in that case God aborts the baby.

Numbers 5:11-31

4. Vendetta killing is the society's natural response for rising crime. =Justice management.

Thats the biblical outlook, secular societies mainly ban vendatta killings, e.g. The ban on the death penalty in europe.
 
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McBell

Unbound
I will speak in general terms, sin is the breach of an objective morality (e.g. moral law) and breach of your deity's holiness (whatever or whoever it is you believe in).
Morality is subjective.
You can butter it up however you like.

Strawman and fallacy,
Thanks for the warning.

even a universalist, those who believe in the universality of gods in many names have a standard set of morality, even an atheist has to subscribe to some form societal requirements or conformance otherwise they shall be charged of sinning against the law of man. The requirement of the law itself (or the requirement of deities) is not arrogance in itself. The blatant and rebellious disregard of it (moral laws and deity) is arrogance. In short, violation of law without regard to its consequence or sinning with impunity is arrogance, yes, that is what you call arrogance. Exercise of moral law is human necessity and a natural requirement for orderly and reasonably equitable political and societal relationships. That is, moral law is a necessity even at the onset of human history, regardless of whether in an absolute (theist view) or a relative (theist and atheist view) aspect of it. Even the most heinous atheist in Stalin didn’t preclude him to require obedience to his communist law and punish those who breach the law. Even a loving father in you will impose penalty or punishment to your kids for breaking your simple rule of going to bed early, now I ask you, will you call this earthly father arrogant for telling his kids that they are breaking (sinning) his rules??
Claiming that eh subjective morals of your chosen deity are to be held to by all is arrogance.
Period.

You are gravely mistaken, Church is not the medicine, Christ is. Church is just a congregation of recovered weaklings who are worshipping and drawing strength from the vine (Christ), and drawing strength from each other through fellowship, prayer and breaking of bread.
Perhaps that is what it is supposed to be...

What is actual truth then?

"Roma 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: "

Is it better for us to throw away the bible then, and believe in some other form of literature, where man is glorified to nirvana of their choice, to whatever god that will please him, under his own term.. Now that is delusion, in the purest atheistic sense, a man subscribing to a belief out of his own imaginations and his own terms. We have a faith that is enabled by the spirit of the Lord, faith that enable the blind (sinners) to see the truth and freedom which is in Christ, affirmed by the certainties of promises written in the bible, a written revelations of God’s terms and will for man, a book untainted of man’s vile imaginations (the moral objectivity of the bible will depend on your faith that the bible is inerrant, holy spirit inspired and God-breathed word of God).

The bible indeed is very imposing on man's freewill, especially imposing to those who have not known the liberality of grace that is in Christ Jesus!!
In Christ, the bondage of sin is broken…for Christ resurrected triumphant and victorious over sin, the reason we really need Christ to save us from the penalties of sin. For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus. Those who have Christ are passed from death to life. Christ is the shepherd of His lost sheep…
*yawn*
Not interested in your sermon.
 

Nooj

none
Value comes from usefulness. Which is supposed to rise when something is beneficial.
It seems to me that you think value is an objective attribute. I think it's subjective.

Why should I believe that I should value what is useful and that something is useful when it is beneficial?
 
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PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
I'd argue that value, in the context of a given circumstance, is objective. Things help you achieve a goal more or less, after all.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It seems to me that you think value is an objective attribute. I think it's subjective.

It is certainly possible to define it in a subjective way, but of course such a definition would make comparisions of value essentially impossible - or at least useless.

And yes, IMO it is possible to definite value somewhat objectively, at least under certain restrictions.


Why should I believe that I should value what is useful and that something is useful when it is beneficial?

Because otherwise you won't have an useful concept of value? ;)
 

Nooj

none
When I say I value something, I mean that I like it. Value in my understanding is just another synonym of like. When I asked why I should value mutually beneficial actions over selfish actions, I meant why should I prefer to do one over the other.

Because otherwise you won't have an useful concept of value? ;)
I don't really care if it's useful, I want to know if it's true. You may value what is beneficial to you and others, but I want to know why I should value what is beneficial and useful.
 
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