Morality

[jamesmorrow]

How do you know its true?

Super Universe, if you pull a "sleeppy" and respond "how do i know what is true?" to the above quote, i will paypal you 5 dollars no joke

 

[waitasec]

Super Universe, if you pull a "sleeppy" and respond "how do i know what is true?" to the above quote, i will paypal you 5 dollars no joke

are you resorting to bribery?

how come i don't get none?

 

[Super Universe]

im referring to the abrahamic god, christians and muslims do not believe their god is a different god. the same god is described in the torah, new testament and quran. they also claim that god does not change. so whatever god's morals were back then remain the same. he does not change with time. he does not change his mind. or at least so they say.

Yes, the Abrahamic God is the Old Testament God. I'm not trying to say that God changes, what I'm saying is that our understanding of Him has changed and will continue to change as we learn how the universe really works.

Some have put their feet into concrete and will go no farther than two thousand year old books, that's their choice. Some like the idea of an angry creator, one who will punish others. It makes them feel better about themselves and relieves them from the burden of their own mistakes.

 

[Daviso452]

Yes, the Abrahamic God is the Old Testament God. I'm not trying to say that God changes, what I'm saying is that our understanding of Him has changed and will continue to change as we learn how the universe really works.

Some have put their feet into concrete and will go no farther than two thousand year old books, that's their choice. Some like the idea of an angry creator, one who will punish others. It makes them feel better about themselves and relieves them from the burden of their own mistakes.

Don't you dare avoid ma question foo!

 

[Super Universe]

How do you know its true?

How many puzzle pieces have to fit together before you can see the whole picture?

We all have our own idea's of what constitutes proof. If I refuse to believe in the Eiffel Tower no amount of pictures or video or anything else will ever prove it to me. Some are that way and that's their choice.

For me, believing in God isn't a choice, there is nothing I am more positive of and that word doesn't even come close to measuring it. But I was only given the one piece of the puzzle, the most important one but still I had to find the others on my own. It's quite a journey.

 

[Daviso452]

How many puzzle pieces have to fit together before you can see the whole picture?

We all have our own idea's of what constitutes proof. If I refuse to believe in the Eiffel Tower no amount of pictures or video or anything else will ever prove it to me. Some are that way and that's their choice.

For me, believing in God isn't a choice, there is nothing I am more positive of and that word doesn't even come close to measuring it. But I was only given the one piece of the puzzle, the most important one but still I had to find the others on my own. It's quite a journey.

Emprical evidence is not subject to choice. If a person refuses it, they are unreasonable. If they admit they are unreasonable, however, then I myself in no position to further discuss.

Whether empirical or personal, what proves to you that God exists?

 

[jamesmorrow]

Yes, the Abrahamic God is the Old Testament God. I'm not trying to say that God changes, what I'm saying is that our understanding of Him has changed and will continue to change as we learn how the universe really works. .

please elaborate. are you referring to our understanding of god's morality?

 

[Super Universe]

Emprical evidence is not subject to choice. If a person refuses it, they are unreasonable. If they admit they are unreasonable, however, then I myself in no position to further discuss.

Whether empirical or personal, what proves to you that God exists?

The existence of the evidence itself is not subject to choice but the meaning of it is. I could say that the universe itself is proof of God. You could say it's not. The evidence is the same for both of us yet we draw different conclusions about it's most important aspect.

What proves to me that God exists? That's like asking a fish why it believes in the ocean or a bird why it believes in the sky.

To someone who hasn't been awaken I would say that they are like a person who finds a deposit of aluminum oxide and tries to convince everyone else "See, here's proof that a Boeing 777 airplane can assemble itself".

It can't.

 

[Super Universe]

please elaborate. are you referring to our understanding of god's morality?

To some degree humanity's understanding of God has changed simply because they included the Old Testament in with the New Testament.

God's morality never changed. It is, and always has been, as Jesus said. Jesus tried to give humans a correct idea of God but Jesus did not want to completely tarnish the old ideas proposed by Moses and Abraham. That would not have been received well at all by the people of the time. Jesus simply wanted to "update" the old ideas with the new ones.

Ancient man did not know why the earth trembled. Ancient man thought that God was angry, God wasn't angry the darn crustal plates shifted and there was an earthquake. But humans didn't know about plate tectonics until scientists used radar to map the ocean bottom in the 1950's and discovered the mid-Atlantic ridge. So, every Old Testament event blamed on God was simply ignorant man's misunderstanding natural events.

 

[waitasec]

Ancient man did not know why the earth trembled. Ancient man thought that God was angry, God wasn't angry the darn crustal plates shifted and there was an earthquake. But humans didn't know about plate tectonics until scientists used radar to map the ocean bottom in the 1950's and discovered the mid-Atlantic ridge. So, every Old Testament event blamed on God was simply ignorant man's misunderstanding natural events.

neither did jesus...

 

[Daviso452]

The existence of the evidence itself is not subject to choice but the meaning of it is. I could say that the universe itself is proof of God. You could say it's not. The evidence is the same for both of us yet we draw different conclusions about it's most important aspect.

What proves to me that God exists? That's like asking a fish why it believes in the ocean or a bird why it believes in the sky.

To someone who hasn't been awaken I would say that they are like a person who finds a deposit of aluminum oxide and tries to convince everyone else "See, here's proof that a Boeing 777 airplane can assemble itself".

It can't.

Why do you believe it impossible for the universe and life to be as they are, or even BE, without God? The goal of atheism is not to disprove God; you can't. Our goal is to say you are wrong that God is the only explanation. Our goal is to prove that God is not necessary. The complexity of life is explained by evolution. The origin of the universe is explained by the big bang. The big bang resulted in a Singularity. The singularity i'm still a little fuzzy about, but am currently researching more on. But that's beside the point.

The point is that you are assuming that the explanations for our universe are only possible through God, and that the evidence supporting these theories are wrong.

 

[Super Universe]

neither did jesus...

My understanding of Jesus is a bit more detailed than what the New Testament provides. The UB gives Jesus life in detail from before birth, birth, all the way to resurrection and beyond.

 

[Super Universe]

Why do you believe it impossible for the universe and life to be as they are, or even BE, without God? The goal of atheism is not to disprove God; you can't. Our goal is to say you are wrong that God is the only explanation. Our goal is to prove that God is not necessary. The complexity of life is explained by evolution. The origin of the universe is explained by the big bang. The big bang resulted in a Singularity. The singularity i'm still a little fuzzy about, but am currently researching more on. But that's beside the point.

The point is that you are assuming that the explanations for our universe are only possible through God, and that the evidence supporting these theories are wrong.

Life's complexity is explained by evolution? No. Evolution is true but the means behind it are not understood by your scientists. They think humanity is a series of billions of fortunate accidents. The reality is that humanity is a stage of DNA. It's built in for us to evolve. Also, life is not amino acids and proteins, life is the mysterious thing that activates DNA.

If you don't want to believe in God, then don't. As I said, you have free will. Use it as you wish.

As for the Big Bang, it was simply a very quick opening of a door to an Infinite Source of, what I will call, energy. The word "energy" in this instance refers to what you call space/time/gravity. This energy flowed through the temporary opening (singularity) and condensed into what you call matter. Matter (condensed energy) now returns to the Infinite Source through Black Holes.

Saying the Big Bang explains the universe is like saying the existence of highway 1 explains how the astronauts got to the moon.

You got it backwards. I'm not assuming science explains God, I know God exists first and foremost, everything else I know has to fit with God, not God into science. I can't forget that I know God exists. It's not possible.

 

[jamesmorrow]

To some degree humanity's understanding of God has changed simply because they included the Old Testament in with the New Testament.

God's morality never changed. It is, and always has been, as Jesus said. Jesus tried to give humans a correct idea of God but Jesus did not want to completely tarnish the old ideas proposed by Moses and Abraham. That would not have been received well at all by the people of the time. Jesus simply wanted to "update" the old ideas with the new ones.

Ancient man did not know why the earth trembled. Ancient man thought that God was angry, God wasn't angry the darn crustal plates shifted and there was an earthquake. But humans didn't know about plate tectonics until scientists used radar to map the ocean bottom in the 1950's and discovered the mid-Atlantic ridge. So, every Old Testament event blamed on God was simply ignorant man's misunderstanding natural events.

im not sure i understand your position on god's involvement in human affairs. are you saying that god did not cause certain natural disasters, such as the sudden destruction of sodom and gomorah? are you saying that it just so happened to rain sulfur naturally and people thought it was a punishment from god? what about smaller, more personal punishments, such as god presonally killing onan for pulling his prick out at the last second and not ejaculating inside his dead brother's sister? or how about god personally striking king david's innocent baby boy with a fatal illness that tortured the boy for days before he finally died, all in punishment of his father's sin of adultery? ...... are you saying that onan could have just died of a heart attack upon orgasm and those around him have interpreted it as god striking onan dead? or that david's baby just randomly caught an illness and people speculated about the cause being a punishment from god?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Saying the Big Bang explains the universe is like saying the existence of highway 1 explains how the astronauts got to the moon.

The big bang theory isn't meant to "explain" the universe. It's a theory concerning the beginning of the universe. Saying the big bang theory "explains" the universe would be as unfounded and baseless as...well...saying "god" explains the universe.

 

[Daviso452]

Life's complexity is explained by evolution? No. Evolution is true but the means behind it are not understood by your scientists. They think humanity is a series of billions of fortunate accidents. The reality is that humanity is a stage of DNA. It's built in for us to evolve. Also, life is not amino acids and proteins, life is the mysterious thing that activates DNA.

Um, no. DNA reacts with RNA, which goes on to create proteins in an organelle, which then forms the cell. It's chemical reactions. There is no "force" behind it. Unless you consider "chemistry" a force.

Our "evolving" is just chemical reactions. Its the cold hard truth. Scientists have even created life. Scientists Create First Self-Replicating Synthetic Life | Wired Science | Wired.com

It's not "built-in" the way you are thinking. Matter reacts in certain ways. That is chemistry. But life is a different kind of chemistry. It reacts like no other matter. However, when broken down, is just atoms and molecules nonetheless. Amino acids are molecules, and DNA is just a long strand of them. Its just reactions. But I am open to any source that says otherwise.

If you don't want to believe in God, then don't. As I said, you have free will. Use it as you wish.

My free will is to use logic, and for others to do so as well. Assumptions can be wrong, and lead to wrong decisions and ignorance. This leads to fear and sadness. I want to eliminate these.

As for the Big Bang, it was simply a very quick opening of a door to an Infinite Source of, what I will call, energy. The word "energy" in this instance refers to what you call space/time/gravity. This energy flowed through the temporary opening (singularity) and condensed into what you call matter. Matter (condensed energy) now returns to the Infinite Source through Black Holes.

First part yes, last part, oh ho ho no! Black holes are incredibly dense sources of matter in which the gravitational pull is so strong that not even light can escape. However Hawking has theorized that over time black holes release heat energy through Entropy, and all eventually die out.
ou

Saying the Big Bang explains the universe is like saying the existence of highway 1 explains how the astronauts got to the moon.

I meant the formation of the universe.

You got it backwards. I'm not assuming science explains God, I know God exists first and foremost, everything else I know has to fit with God, not God into science. I can't forget that I know God exists. It's not possible.

Then you cannot be reasoned with. You assume God exists. There is no evidence for God to exist, but you still believe. You believe with faith, not reason. If you force evidence to conform to a certain idea, then it is not evidence for that idea, because you are ignoring the other implications of it. If you admit that you assume, or have faith, that God exists, then I will end this now. Otherwise, explain your reasoning.

 

[Super Universe]

im not sure i understand your position on god's involvement in human affairs. are you saying that god did not cause certain natural disasters, such as the sudden destruction of sodom and gomorah? are you saying that it just so happened to rain sulfur naturally and people thought it was a punishment from god? what about smaller, more personal punishments, such as god presonally killing onan for pulling his prick out at the last second and not ejaculating inside his dead brother's sister? or how about god personally striking king david's innocent baby boy with a fatal illness that tortured the boy for days before he finally died, all in punishment of his father's sin of adultery? ...... are you saying that onan could have just died of a heart attack upon orgasm and those around him have interpreted it as god striking onan dead? or that david's baby just randomly caught an illness and people speculated about the cause being a punishment from god?

How could ancient man know that any natural event was from God? Did the hear a booming voice from above every time? Nope. It was accepted by humans of the time that any unknown event occured because of an angry god. This idea followed even after the evolution of monotheism. The priests say that God is a jealous God. He created the universe, what could He possibly be jealous of?

Today, if a bridge collapses does anyone blame God? Nope. What happened? Science happened. Once humans began to understand how the world really works they stopped blaming God for everything.

Free will is a universal law. God does not create laws and then just break them. Essentially, God has no involvement with human affairs other than sending a fragment of Himself (the Soul) to connect with us and transmit information back to God. When you have a conversation with someone God experiences that event from both sides.

Now the angels HAVE interfered with humans since the beginning and yes, they've made some mistakes, big ones...

 

[angelin]

Nothing. An infant isn't culpable for his or her actions. Even if the infant somehow killed the mother, there's no responsibility

 

[Super Universe]

Um, no. DNA reacts with RNA, which goes on to create proteins in an organelle, which then forms the cell. It's chemical reactions. There is no "force" behind it. Unless you consider "chemistry" a force.

Our "evolving" is just chemical reactions. Its the cold hard truth. Scientists have even created life. Scientists Create First Self-Replicating Synthetic Life | Wired Science | Wired.com

It's not "built-in" the way you are thinking. Matter reacts in certain ways. That is chemistry. But life is a different kind of chemistry. It reacts like no other matter. However, when broken down, is just atoms and molecules nonetheless. Amino acids are molecules, and DNA is just a long strand of them. Its just reactions. But I am open to any source that says otherwise.


My free will is to use logic, and for others to do so as well. Assumptions can be wrong, and lead to wrong decisions and ignorance. This leads to fear and sadness. I want to eliminate these.


First part yes, last part, oh ho ho no! Black holes are incredibly dense sources of matter in which the gravitational pull is so strong that not even light can escape. However Hawking has theorized that over time black holes release heat energy through Entropy, and all eventually die out.
ou

I meant the formation of the universe.



Then you cannot be reasoned with. You assume God exists. There is no evidence for God to exist, but you still believe. You believe with faith, not reason. If you force evidence to conform to a certain idea, then it is not evidence for that idea, because you are ignoring the other implications of it. If you admit that you assume, or have faith, that God exists, then I will end this now. Otherwise, explain your reasoning.

The RNA reads the DNA, it doesn't react with it. Anyway, what causes the DNA and RNA to work?

Scientists have created life? Nope. DNA attracts "life" or spirit energy. Your scientists are not creating life because they don't even know what it is that makes the DNA active. You think it's just chemisty, it's not.

It's not built in? Believe what you want to believe, it changes the universe not a bit.

Logic doesn't explain love, pain, desire, sadness, jealousy, we're not Vulcans here.

I know what black holes are, follow the math all the way down to the very end, what do you get? Infinite gravity... Just what I said.

What experience of mine have you had? Have you travelled the world in my shoes?
You can try to tell me what I know, but the only thing you have is what you know, or think you know about the world and universe.

 

[Daviso452]

The RNA reads the DNA, it doesn't react with it. Anyway, what causes the DNA and RNA to work?

Scientists have created life? Nope. DNA attracts "life" or spirit energy. Your scientists are not creating life because they don't even know what it is that makes the DNA active. You think it's just chemisty, it's not.

It's not built in? Believe what you want to believe, it changes the universe not a bit.

Logic doesn't explain love, pain, desire, sadness, jealousy, we're not Vulcans here.

I know what black holes are, follow the math all the way down to the very end, what do you get? Infinite gravity... Just what I said.

What experience of mine have you had? Have you travelled the world in my shoes?
You can try to tell me what I know, but the only thing you have is what you know, or think you know about the world and universe.

I can't. So I'm asking. I want to know what convinces you of God. Not what you believe because of your belief in God, but your experiences, evidence and such that make you certain a God exist. I'm certain you have a reason, and if you have already stated it I must not have recognized it. I'm tired, so my reasoning is damaged. So if you could, make it as simple as you can.

I want to know why you believe. I know your reasons are your own, but I want to know what they are. Not to criticize, but just to know. Knowledge is power.