More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows

[Revoltingest]

These straw Men....... the term has become almost meaningless.

But "straw man" does have meaning, even if it's not always correctly used.
In this case, I don't see anyone advocating the simple "more guns".
The issues before us are actually.....
Is self defense with a gun a right?
Are militarily capable small arms a right under the 2nd?
Should school personnel be allowed concealed carry (with training)?
These are things being argued for & against.

Schools......... regulating access to schools. The cost of full Perimeter Security will be huge, and Access Control to Entrances(s) will be cost-crippling, but home security of the nation's kids is probably more important than an aircraft carrier or two. ??

Uh....OK.....

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A dark period of American history during which the government tried to repress the apparition community.

A large, massive, and significant chunk of the American population was in favor of prohibition. And most people did quit drinking to stay in line with the law. Of course many didn't, but it's a far cry to say it was the state trying to repress the wants of the citizens.

 

[wandering peacefully]

I feel sorry for the deputy, frankly, because he gets to spend the rest of his life being vilified as a coward by the ammosexuals for the sin of exposing the ridiculous lie that is the idea of gun proliferation being a sensible precaution against this sort of incident.

Maybe someone has mentioned this but what the heck is a teacher with a handgun going to do against a semI or automatic weapon?

No wonder that poor cop didn't jump in. He knew for certain he would be mowed down.

So should we arm teachers with AR-15s? That' the only way any "armed teachers" have a chance of protecting students.

Even if you have cops with them in the parking lot, by the time they reach the shooter he has already murdered 10 of his fellow students.

Absolutely ridiculous. Just like all of the other suggestions by gun lovers.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We tried to regulate boos, failed and made mafia more potent, we failed war on drugs and made mafia still stronger, all we can do create a stronger black market, we cannot stop any guns...this our experience of making problems worse, do we go this again?

Therein lies the difference between ban and regulation. Alcohol prohibition was an abysmal failure. But regulating it has been rather quite successful, even making it a harder drug to find in high school. Unlike other drugs with prohibitions, which have no one checking IDs to make sure someone is old enough to buy them.

 

[Revoltingest]

Absolutely ridiculous. Just like all of the other suggestions by gun lovers.

Even more ridiculous is government's advertising that schools are "gun free",
& prohibiting anyone from being able to defend oneself or others. A handgun
is at a disadvantage against an AR15, but an unarmed worker is even worse off.

 

[Quetzal]

This is a mis-statement.
Not all.
Likely only a few would seek it.

I was confused about this. Are they proposing a budget to pay for teachers to get training? Or is this all paid for by the teacher? I see this idea as poorly thought out and dangerous but I wasn't sure of the fine details.

 

[tytlyf]

The NRA tells people the opposite. And people don't fact check the statistics and eat the lie whole. Wayne LaPierre (draft dodger) put on a brilliant performance at CPAC the other day. Pure propaganda, panic mongering, paranoia, fear and misery. GHWB was right to cancel his membership to the NRA after they became corrupted by greed.

 

[Revoltingest]

Therein lies the difference between ban and regulation. Alcohol prohibition was an abysmal failure. But regulating it has been rather quite successful, even making it a harder drug to find in high school. Unlike other drugs with prohibitions, which have no one checking IDs to make sure someone is old enough to buy them.

There's a problem with your view....it isn't perfect.
Many people want simplistic perfect solutions,
& those end up being the loudest voices.
The middle ground of thoughtful & effective but
imperfect regulation isn't emotionally satisfying.

 

[Revoltingest]

I was confused about this. Are they proposing a budget to pay for teachers to get training? Or is this all paid for by the teacher? I see this idea as poorly thought out and dangerous but I wasn't sure of the fine details.

All solutions are dangerous. As always, it's matter of picking
the best option, one which is both legally & politically possible.
Should teachers be paid for taking up this responsibility?
I say yes, because it involves expense, time & initiative.
This has advantages over installing cops in schools....
- School personnel are already on the scene.
- School personnel are more numerous.
- School personnel are cheaper.
- School personnel have a greater interest in protecting themselves.

We should also realize that not all cops are well trained or even suited
for the job (as this deputy appears to illustrate). I had one working for
me once...he was violent, cowardly, poorly trained, bigoted & a drunk
who used his position to avoid DUI tickets. He wasn't very good at
maintenance either. (I fired him.)
A badge, uniform & a gun do not a good cop make.

 

[socharlie]

Therein lies the difference between ban and regulation. Alcohol prohibition was an abysmal failure. But regulating it has been rather quite successful, even making it a harder drug to find in high school. Unlike other drugs with prohibitions, which have no one checking IDs to make sure someone is old enough to buy them.

if there is demand...

 

[Quetzal]

All solutions are dangerous. As always, it's matter of picking
the best option, one which is both legally & politically possible.
Should teachers be paid for taking up this responsibility?
I say yes, because it involves expense, time & initiative.
This has advantages over installing cops in schools....
- School personnel are already on the scene.
- School personnel are more numerous.
- School personnel are cheaper.
- School personnel have a greater interest in protecting themselves.

We should also realize that not all cops are well trained or even suited
for the job (as this deputy appears to illustrate). I had one working for
me once...he was violent, cowardly, poorly trained, bigoted & a drunk
who used his position to avoid DUI tickets. He wasn't very good at
maintenance either. (I fired him.)
A badge, uniform & a gun do not a good cop make.

Right! See, my concern is a bit different. My concern is that if the number of guns are increased in schools, this increases risk in comparison to what it is now. See, now a student who wants to take use his classmates for target practice doesn't even need to acquire a firearm. They are already there! Imagine a senior varsity lineman overpowering a 125lb English teacher and taking her weapon. Sure, others might have guns, too, but now we have a fire fight in a school and there will be causalities. We can do better, in my opinion.

 

[socharlie]

The Temperance legislation was crazy.
The Low-Classes Drug legislation is crazy.

Gun legislation for better control, all-gun all-risks mandatory insurance etc is common sense.

In the UK it is possible to acquire a gun illegally but our Police are finding/seizing home made criminal guns which shows that it is not worthwhile for gangs to import guns on a black market..... there just isn't the money in it.

freedom will be no more...war on guns override it, just like war on drugs did but much more intrusive.

 

[Revoltingest]

Right! See, my concern is a bit different. My concern is that if the number of guns are increased in schools, this increases risk in comparison to what it is now. See, now a student who wants to take use his classmates for target practice doesn't even need to acquire a firearm. They are already there! Imagine a senior varsity lineman overpowering a 125lb English teacher and taking her weapon. Sure, others might have guns, too, but now we have a fire fight in a school and there will be causalities. We can do better, in my opinion.

Let's say that some personnel (not just teachers) are armed, & carry concealed.
Some students might know which are, & they might not.
If some personnel are so armed & trained.....
1) Perps bent on mayhem know there'll be immediate armed resistance.
This might dissuade them.
2) Shooters can possibly be stopped during a spree.
3) A student could take someone's gun, & become a shooter.
4) A carrier could go off the rails, & become a perp.
5) A carrier could shoot an innocent student by accident.

Scenarios 1 & 2 appear to have a net benefit.
Scenarios 3, 4 & 5 would also apply to cops.

It looks probable that armed school personnel would offer a net benefit,
providing that they're properly vetted & trained. And this is a big "if",
since we should want better than we've seen from cops.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

if there is demand...

There is a demand. But bans haven't worked, and to use prohibitions as examples, regulations are far superior and generally successful.

 

[Quetzal]

3) A student could take someone's gun, & become a shooter.
4) A carrier could go off the rails, & become a perp.
5) A carrier could shoot an innocent student by accident.

I will focus on these three since they are directly speaking to my concern. I will grant you that some cops are pretty bad at what they do. But, at the very least, they do have mandatory trainings, reviews, evaluations, and job experience. They also move as a single unit when it comes to responding to a scene. They can easily communicate and organize. A group of teachers/staff? Not so much. The infrastructure simply isn't there. By the time you invest the money and resources into building that, you might as well just hire 3-4 resource officers instead. I would greatly prefer this alternative. At the college I work at, they invested in a police department. Public school systems can do the same thing. It is expensive, but so are other solutions.

Just my ignorant 2 cents.

 

[socharlie]

There is a demand. But bans haven't worked, and to use prohibitions as examples, regulations are far superior and generally successful.

the system corrupt in the core, we have opioid crisis supplied by Chinese manufacturers, there is the same with guns, cartels will stop delivering drugs and switch to guns - it is been so for years - but with regulations and prohibitions profit lure will magnify. They need to return Bugs Bunny instead of Call of Duty they stolen our children's childhood.

 

[Revoltingest]

I will focus on these three since they are directly speaking to my concern. I will grant you that some cops are pretty bad at what they do. But, at the very least, they do have mandatory trainings, reviews, evaluations, and job experience. They also move as a single unit when it comes to responding to a scene. They can easily communicate and organize. A group of teachers/staff? Not so much. The infrastructure simply isn't there. By the time you invest the money and resources into building that, you might as well just hire 3-4 resource officers instead. I would greatly prefer this alternative. At the college I work at, they invested in a police department. Public school systems can do the same thing. It is expensive, but so are other solutions.

Just my ignorant 2 cents.

Cops do move as a single unit to a scene. But they do
so only after trouble has begun, & often after it's ended.
Very few cops have actual experience in a gun fight, so
whoever defends a school will rely upon training.
There's no getting around the fact that school personnel
are the ones facing the problem immediately & directly.
Set standards they must meet, as high or higher than cops.
Let them have the right of self defense.
It's the cheapest achievable measure yet offered.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You do not put out a fire by feeding it more fuel
The more Europe has restricted people having guns, the fewer has been the gun killings.
It is true there is perhaps more knife crime, but not in proportion to the fewer firearm deaths.
There are no knife massacres.

Terrorist and inter Gang crime follows a different measure as it always has.

 

[Quetzal]

Cops do move as a single unit to a scene. But they do
so only after trouble has begun, & often after it's ended.
Very few cops have actual experience in a gun fight, so
whoever defends a school will rely upon training.
There's no getting around the fact that school personnel
are the ones facing the problem immediately & directly.
Set standards they must meet, as high or higher than cops.
Let them have the right of self defense.
It's the cheapest achievable measure yet offered.

Errr im still not convinced. It isn't your fault, I just know there are numerous faculty members here that I would not trust with a stick, much less a gun.

 

[tytlyf]

The easiest solution would be to ban AR-15's. Cheap too. Unfortunately in America, we have too many weapons which makes it easy for criminals to find one. More guns = more gun violence.

It also doesn't help that there are 'responsible' gun owners selling weapons to people they don't know.