Mosque at Ground Zero

[YmirGF]

One must admit of resonance with 'mystic elements in certain strains of Judaism and Christianity.'

The only problem with this is that Rauf and Miss Daisy have not exactly attempted to win the "hearts and minds" of those who oppose their proposal. That doesn't bode well for the head of group that alleges itself to be about "outreach" and "dialogue". One can only wonder when the "outreach" and "dialogue" will begin...

 

[Alceste]

The only problem with this is that Rauf and Miss Daisy have not exactly attempted to win the "hearts and minds" of those who oppose their proposal. That doesn't bode well for the head of group that alleges itself to be about "outreach" and "dialogue". One can only wonder when the "outreach" and "dialogue" will begin...

The opponents have yet to demonstrate that they HAVE hearts or minds. Perhaps there is nothing to win.

 

[Autodidact]

Interestingly enough, that horrid knuckle-dragging, bigoted, Islamophobe, Christopher Hitchens has penned an article on Slate. I thought it was an excellent piece, but heck, obviously, I know absolutely nothing, being a bigoted, knuckle-dragging, racist, hate-mongering, Islamophobe and all.

A Test of Tolerance


Someone really ought to call the guy out... Sheesh...

Ok, I admit it, I did love the line, "From the beginning, though, I pointed out that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf was no great bargain and that his Cordoba Initiative was full of euphemisms about Islamic jihad and Islamic theocracy."

Someone really needs to sit this nut down and have a talk with him. Evidently he just doesn't get it.

Yeah, especially when he said:

the arguments against the construction of the Cordoba Initiative center in lower Manhattan were so stupid and demagogic as to be beneath notice.

(from your link)

Mr. Hitchens seems to agree with Alceste on this.

 

[Autodidact]

The only problem with this is that Rauf and Miss Daisy have not exactly attempted to win the "hearts and minds" of those who oppose their proposal. That doesn't bode well for the head of group that alleges itself to be about "outreach" and "dialogue". One can only wonder when the "outreach" and "dialogue" will begin...

I have met and interviewed Daisy Kahn. She is a brilliant, powerful feminist, initiator of the Jihad Against Violence and the Women's Islamic Initiative in Spirituality and Equity. The world needs more women like her. I would be proud to be her ally, and everyone here knows I'm an equally fierce atheist and lesbian who is extremely suspicious of radical Islam.

 

[beenie]

I have met and interviewed Daisy Kahn. She is a brilliant, powerful feminist, initiator of the Jihad Against Violence and the Women's Islamic Initiative in Spirituality and Equity. The world needs more women like her. I would be proud to be her ally, and everyone here knows I'm an equally fierce atheist and lesbian who is extremely suspicious of radical Islam.

if what you say about her is true (not doubting you, just making the point) then yes, there need to be more (especially) Muslim women like her in the world.

 

[autonomous1one1]

The only problem with this is that Rauf and Miss Daisy have not exactly attempted to win the "hearts and minds" of those who oppose their proposal. That doesn't bode well for the head of group that alleges itself to be about "outreach" and "dialogue". One can only wonder when the "outreach" and "dialogue" will begin...

An interesting point, YmirGF, but one must wonder how many of the strong supporters were acquired through dialogue that has already occurred. Somebody has done some legwork and has gotten an impressive array of supporters including the following: near unanimous vote of support from the NY Community Board, Mayor Bloomberg, Fred Koch, many 9/11 victim families, NY Bishop Sisk, the anti-war group September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows, among many more. One must wonder, also, how much of the opposition was due to unforeseen Republican action in making the issue political.

Take a look at this statement from Wikipedia: "The anti-war group September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows, released a statement in support of the center, saying 'we believe that welcoming the Center, which is intended to promote interfaith tolerance and respect, is consistent with fundamental American values of freedom and justice for all,' adding it will be 'an emblem for the rest of the world that Americans stand against violence, intolerance, and overt acts of racism and that we recognize that the evil acts of a few must never damn the innocent.'"

 

[YmirGF]

Yeah, especially when he said: (from your link)

Mr. Hitchens seems to agree with Alceste on this.

You might want to ponder the full impact of his piece. The last paragraph is the main money quote, imo. Obviously Hitchens has issues with the manner that the opponents have handled this, but he isn't exactly head over heels impressed by Imam Rauf's sanitized answers thus far.

The other part I rather liked was his take on the misguided term Islamophobia. I could not agree with his viewpoint more. It is a red-herring term designed to silence debate and effectively throws cold water on any hope of meaningful dialogue.

Ms. Khan isn't exactly holding out an olive branch, demonstrating her keen communication skills by saying,

Asked if America was "Islamophobic," Khan responded that it's like "metastasized anti-Semitism." "It's not even Islamophobia, it's beyond Islamophobia — it's hate of Muslims," she said. "And we are deeply concerned."

(source)

You see, rather than actually admit that it is based more on ignorance and fear of Islam, the great communicator shifts the focal point onto Muslims, making it a personal issue. What she and so many others fail to understand is that it is based on fear and ignorance - NOT hate. Oddly, someone in such a delicate position, who is attempting "outreach" should have their ducks in a neat little row... but she can't even be honest and chooses to play the victim card. It does make one wonder how deeply they actually thought about the proposal beyond, "YES, we can!"

 

[Magic Man]

Wait, is Ymir still trying to justify his bigotry? Sheez. And now he's using other people's bigotry to support his own? Oh my.

 

[painted wolf]

Has anyone bothered to think about the fact that they only own half of the property they need, and are nowhere near being able to afford the rest?

Or is it just to much fun to spin dooms-day predictions?

wa:do

*ps... ignorance and fear are the perfect breeding ground for hate to take root.

 

[Rakhel]

Has anyone bothered to think about the fact that they only own half of the property they need, and are nowhere near being able to afford the rest?

Or is it just to much fun to spin dooms-day predictions?

wa:do

*ps... ignorance and fear are the perfect breeding ground for hate to take root.

I have mentioned this quite a number of times, but I was handed an article stating that ConEd wasn't going to stop the constuction. Of course the info in this article wasn't reported here(NYC) in any local newspaper of on any news channel(I looked).

There is also questions about the half that they claim to own. Buildings in that area are known to go for $10-20 million dollars. The Kahns paid $5 million and have said they have been offered 4 times as much. The other half is being appraised now, and is expected to be worth the going rate($10-20 million).

 

[autonomous1one1]

.., but I was handed an article stating that ConEd wasn't going to stop the constuction. .....

Greetings Rakhel. Do you have an online link to this article?

 

[TashaN]

No offence, I'm not an American & I'm not against building the mosque or building it in that place.

But I see you are from Saudi Arabia and I know that in your country building a church/synagogue/temple in whatever place is completely out of the question.

What are you and others from your country doing to change this?
I mean, even if they have the right to build a mosque and to build it in that place: I can't help but noticing how much tolerance Muslims receive in non-Islamic countries - and how little tolerance they provide in places where they are the majority.

Sorry, but have you actually looked up whether Churches DO exist throughout the Muslim world or not?

Almost every Muslim country have Churches, and the Muslim countries in the middle east have very old churches, maybe the oldest which can be dated way before Islam, and it still exist until today. New Churches are being built too.

Having said all that, you have to be aware how backward many Muslim countries are today. Most of these countries identify themselves as *Muslim countries*. Christians countries wouldn't have been tolerant to Muslims. Some Christians fall under the delusion that America, Britain, Europe are Christians nations, but they are not. They are secular countries and they gave freedom of worship to all faiths unlike undemocratic Muslim countries with a Muslim majority which still tolerate other religions and allow them to build churches.

I'm not saying Muslim countries today are heaven for non-Muslims but at least they are not hypocrites. They identify themselves as *Muslim countries*, unlike the civilized free secular world which supposed to treat all religions on the same manner.

Got my point?

 

[Rakhel]

This is the only place it is posted at. Croak posted it in a response to me

Con Ed Will Not Block the Ground Zero Mosque, Despite Reports - DNAinfo.com

 

[autonomous1one1]

This is the only place it is posted at. Croak posted it in a response to me

Con Ed Will Not Block the Ground Zero Mosque, Despite Reports - DNAinfo.com

perfect. Thanks.

 

[autonomous1one1]

....The other part I rather liked was his take on the misguided term Islamophobia. I could not agree with his viewpoint more. It is a red-herring term designed to silence debate and effectively throws cold water on any hope of meaningful dialogue.....

Now this interpretation is very puzzling. The word seems the perfect pointer for one element of the discussion and has no 'silencing' affects in most circles. One might consider instead that telling someone 'their use of 'Islamophobia' has a silencing affect of any useful dialogue' might in turn hamper that user's free participation in dialogue. (whew, a tongue twister. hope you get what is meant.)

Islamophobia - Wiktionary
The fear or hatred of Islam or Muslims

That such fear, unfortunately, is an element of the opposition to the center/mosque cannot be denied even though it grows from ignorance. The videos of your post #233 and the a.1 post #366 help stimulate these fears. On the news tonight it was reported that there was a stabbing of a Muslim cab driver in NY today just because the cab driver was Muslim.

 

[YmirGF]

Wait, is Ymir still trying to justify his bigotry? Sheez. And now he's using other people's bigotry to support his own? Oh my.

Well, mbaal1297 one cannot expect too much from a hate-mongering, bigoted, kuckle-dragging, ignorant, Neo-conservative Islamophobe, now, can one.

You folks are so obviously correct that there really isn't much more to discuss. Like honestly, what could go wrong with the building of this mosque by these fine Muslim people?

 

[tumbleweed41]

what could go wrong with the building of this mosque by these fine Muslim people?

 

[Autodidact]

Well, mbaal1297 one cannot expect too much from a hate-mongering, bigoted, kuckle-dragging, ignorant, Neo-conservative Islamophobe, now, can one.

You folks are so obviously correct that there really isn't much more to discuss. Like honestly, what could go wrong with the building of this mosque by these fine Muslim people?

I get a feeling that you're blaming the proponents for the actions of their opponents. That doesn't seem right.

 

[dogsgod]

Well, mbaal1297 one cannot expect too much from a hate-mongering, bigoted, kuckle-dragging, ignorant, Neo-conservative Islamophobe, now, can one.

.



No.




.

 

[beenie]

Like honestly, what could go wrong with the building of this mosque by these fine Muslim people?

would you approve of it if i built it?