Mosque at Ground Zero

[Darkness]

would you approve of it if i built it?

Do you know how to construct a 13-storey building? That is all I really care about. More generally, considering the religion of construction workers is just sad. :yes:

 

[Alceste]

would you approve of it if i built it?

I'm half tempted to donate money to them for the project myself. Not because I think this world needs any more churches or mosques, but because the opponents have made it necessary. Before, I just didn't care one way or the other. Now, if the project falls through for reasons unrelated to the protests, the knuckle-dragging pinheads will claim it as a moral victory and attendance at their "I'm white and angry!" street parties will skyrocket. So, it must be completed.

 

[YmirGF]

would you approve of it if i built it?

haha. Well, if the truth be told, no. I don't approve of building any kind religiously oriented structures, as I do not approve of worship - in any form.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Similarly, I would rather see a non-religious community center built. I am not too fond of more churches or prayer rooms being built anywhere. However there is no legal or logical reason for opposition to the current community center plans.
There is little difference between the mobs gathered in opposition and the mobs shouting 'death to America' in another county.

 

[Magic Man]

Well, mbaal1297 one cannot expect too much from a hate-mongering, bigoted, kuckle-dragging, ignorant, Neo-conservative Islamophobe, now, can one.

I guess you're right. I guess the best thing to take from this is at least you know you're view is bigotted, idiotic, Islamophobic and ignorant. Now if we could just get you to realize those are bad things.

You folks are so obviously correct that there really isn't much more to discuss.

Then why are you still trying to justify your bigotry?

Like honestly, what could go wrong with the building of this mosque by these fine Muslim people?

Nothing more than could go wrong with the building of a strip club or bar or church or school. Although I'm assuming you're implying that all Muslims are terrorists, hence the accusations of bigotry and Islamophobia against you.

 

[Magic Man]

Similarly, I would rather see a non-religious community center built. I am not too fond of more churches or prayer rooms being built anywhere.

Generally I'm not either, but I really want them to build this one now. Not because I want another mosque in the world, but because these opponents really need to be shown how stupid their bigotry is.

 

[Smoke]

Generally I'm not either, but I really want them to build this one now. Not because I want another mosque in the world, but because these opponents really need to be shown how stupid their bigotry is.

No, that's not even it. They're not going to be convinced how stupid their bigotry is, not on a group level, and probably not even on a individual level except over time. I mean, that takes a change of heart; mere defeat won't do it.

Unfortunately, it has become a matter of civil liberties and the rights afforded to Americans under the Constitution. The point that must be made is not that bigotry is stupid, because all but the stupid people know that already. The point that must be made is that bigots, even if there are a lot of them, do not get to take away the religious freedom of a minority.

To be absolutely clear about it, it doesn't bother me if they want to put a mosque a couple blocks from Ground Zero; it bothers me that they want to put a mosque anywhere. The last thing we need is more damned mosques and churches. However, I recognize that the right to religious freedom trumps my concerns -- legitimate concerns, I think -- about how people use that freedom. I may hate your religion, but I'll defend your right to practice it.

And I say that knowing perfectly well that I'll never get the same respect in return from either the Muslims or the Christians.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

I'm half tempted to donate money to them for the project myself. Not because I think this world needs any more churches or mosques, but because the opponents have made it necessary. Before, I just didn't care one way or the other. Now, if the project falls through for reasons unrelated to the protests, the knuckle-dragging pinheads will claim it as a moral victory and attendance at their "I'm white and angry!" street parties will skyrocket. So, it must be completed.

Totally agree. All of a sudden, it has become virtually imperative to build this mosque, in order to deal a victory to religious tolerance and a defeat to religious bigotry.

 

[tumbleweed41]

No, that's not even it. They're not going to be convinced how stupid their bigotry is, not on a group level, and probably not even on a individual level except over time. I mean, that takes a change of heart; mere defeat won't do it.

Unfortunately, it has become a matter of civil liberties and the rights afforded to Americans under the Constitution. The point that must be made is not that bigotry is stupid, because all but the stupid people know that already. The point that must be made is that bigots, even if there are a lot of them, do not get to take away the religious freedom of a minority.

To be absolutely clear about it, it doesn't bother me if they want to put a mosque a couple blocks from Ground Zero; it bothers me that they want to put a mosque anywhere. The last thing we need is more damned mosques and churches. However, I recognize that the right to religious freedom trumps my concerns -- legitimate concerns, I think -- about how people use that freedom. I may hate your religion, but I'll defend your right to practice it.

And I say that knowing perfectly well that I'll never get the same respect in return from either the Muslims or the Christians.

:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap

 

[YmirGF]

I guess you're right. I guess the best thing to take from this is at least you know you're view is bigotted, idiotic, Islamophobic and ignorant. Now if we could just get you to realize those are bad things.

It is so edifying that there are those, like yourself, that are being so helpful in aiding me to see the error of my ways. I do have to admit that I am greatly surprised that, in comparison to so many of you, my knowledge of the nuts and bolts of Islam is so utterly lacking. After nine long years of wading through the theological dogma - that is somewhat startling.

Then why are you still trying to justify your bigotry?

You will have to accept my deepest apologies. My only defense is that I just don't know as much about Islam as the rest of you. I guess I will have to read faster.

Nothing more than could go wrong with the building of a strip club or bar or church or school.

That is an interesting perspective. Might I get back to you on this one?

Although I'm assuming you're implying that all Muslims are terrorists, hence the accusations of bigotry and Islamophobia against you.

Oh, Mball, you know must be aware of the nature of assumptions. My take on this is that the charges of bigotry and Islamophobia as made out of ignorance and are therefore quite forgivable.

 

[Jeremiah]

I hope no one minds if I just tack my 2 cents on without reading the entire thread.

This attack, some have lunched, on the building of the mosque is very disturbing. To up hold freedom of religion for all, we must allow the mosque to be built.

This is how terrorism works; by attacking the soul of the people. And if we let emotions cloud our thoughts, to the point that we, ourselves, disregard our own Constitution, then what is the point of this “War on Terror”? 9-11 was a tragedy, but we can't let a terrorist attack compromise our Constitution.

 

[painted wolf]

I think it also demonstrates how a little fear can make people who profess to love freedom so willing to restrict/repeal freedom.
And how tempting it is to give in to authoritarianism.

wa:do

 

[Darkness]

No, that's not even it. They're not going to be convinced how stupid their bigotry is, not on a group level, and probably not even on a individual level except over time. I mean, that takes a change of heart; mere defeat won't do it.

Unfortunately, it has become a matter of civil liberties and the rights afforded to Americans under the Constitution. The point that must be made is not that bigotry is stupid, because all but the stupid people know that already. The point that must be made is that bigots, even if there are a lot of them, do not get to take away the religious freedom of a minority.

To be absolutely clear about it, it doesn't bother me if they want to put a mosque a couple blocks from Ground Zero; it bothers me that they want to put a mosque anywhere. The last thing we need is more damned mosques and churches. However, I recognize that the right to religious freedom trumps my concerns -- legitimate concerns, I think -- about how people use that freedom. I may hate your religion, but I'll defend your right to practice it.

And I say that knowing perfectly well that I'll never get the same respect in return from either the Muslims or the Christians.

Beau, mon frère. :rainbow1:

 

[Magic Man]

No, that's not even it. They're not going to be convinced how stupid their bigotry is, not on a group level, and probably not even on a individual level except over time. I mean, that takes a change of heart; mere defeat won't do it.

Believe me, I don't expect this to suddenly change people's minds. But the idea is to have things like this start to happen to change the attitude over time.

Unfortunately, it has become a matter of civil liberties and the rights afforded to Americans under the Constitution. The point that must be made is not that bigotry is stupid, because all but the stupid people know that already. The point that must be made is that bigots, even if there are a lot of them, do not get to take away the religious freedom of a minority.

Yes, obviously, that's a main point of the issue. But with murders we're seeing now like the cab driver, this isn't even the main issue to me anymore.

To be absolutely clear about it, it doesn't bother me if they want to put a mosque a couple blocks from Ground Zero; it bothers me that they want to put a mosque anywhere. The last thing we need is more damned mosques and churches. However, I recognize that the right to religious freedom trumps my concerns -- legitimate concerns, I think -- about how people use that freedom. I may hate your religion, but I'll defend your right to practice it.

And I say that knowing perfectly well that I'll never get the same respect in return from either the Muslims or the Christians.

Of course. We're all on the same page with this. But people need to learn to accept Muslims.

 

[Magic Man]

It is so edifying that there are those, like yourself, that are being so helpful in aiding me to see the error of my ways. I do have to admit that I am greatly surprised that, in comparison to so many of you, my knowledge of the nuts and bolts of Islam is so utterly lacking. After nine long years of wading through the theological dogma - that is somewhat startling.

I just wish you'd listen to those of us who are trying to be helpful in showing you the error of your ways. Many people have been doing that in this thread, and that's why I'm surprised you still cling to your bigotry.

Also, I agree. I too am surprised by your lack of understanding of Muslims, if you've been studying them for 9 years.

You will have to accept my deepest apologies. My only defense is that I just don't know as much about Islam as the rest of you. I guess I will have to read faster.

Maybe here's the problem. First, I'll accept your apology when its genuine. Second, you don't need to know much about Islam. All you need to know is people. Maybe you should just pay more attention to people.

That is an interesting perspective. Might I get back to you on this one?

Sure, go right ahead.

Oh, Mball, you know must be aware of the nature of assumptions. My take on this is that the charges of bigotry and Islamophobia as made out of ignorance and are therefore quite forgivable.

Well, I'm glad that's your take. It's just too bad it's incorrect. Why would you imply there's something especially dangerous about a mosque, other than the idea that there is some inherent connection between Muslims and terrorism? If you didn't wrongly associate those two things, you'd realize the only things that could go wrong with this Islamic center are the same things that could go wrong with any group of people building something.

 

[Alceste]

It is so edifying that there are those, like yourself, that are being so helpful in aiding me to see the error of my ways. I do have to admit that I am greatly surprised that, in comparison to so many of you, my knowledge of the nuts and bolts of Islam is so utterly lacking. After nine long years of wading through the theological dogma - that is somewhat startling.

You will have to accept my deepest apologies. My only defense is that I just don't know as much about Islam as the rest of you. I guess I will have to read faster.

That is an interesting perspective. Might I get back to you on this one?


Oh, Mball, you know must be aware of the nature of assumptions. My take on this is that the charges of bigotry and Islamophobia as made out of ignorance and are therefore quite forgivable.

Thus demonstrating you have completely missed the point. We're discussing the importance of defending the civil liberties of minorities in the face of bullying by the majority. It doesn't matter how many polemical anti-Islamic screeds you've read. The question is constitutional, not theological. The religion in question is irrelevant. They could even be scientologists and I would still defend their civil liberties.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have decided that I am going to protest the local YMCA, and demand it be closed down. After all, many Native Americans suffered horribly at the hands of Christians, so it is a slap in the face for such an institution to be erected in lands they used to control that were unfairly taken from them by outsiders. Never mind the fact they didn't really have anything at all to do with it, but it still remains a fact that these missionaries called the Natives savages, ungodly, and many cruel names, and treated them poorly as they were told that their own gods were false gods and they must convert or burn in hell.
Oh and well shut down all government officials and positions in Salem. They really wronged the people not too long ago historically speaking. And again the churches since had the church not been around there wouldn't have been any devil to possess the people.
And we'll just completely run religion out of Europe since it had so many religious sites defaced, destroyed, countless of innocent people killed, and hindered scientific progress for hundreds of years. Why should we let the nobles and bishops of old win in their cause to spread such hatred and ignorance that plagued Medieval Europe by continuing the institution they used to further their cause?

 

[Smoke]

Oh and well shut down all government officials and positions in Salem. They really wronged the people not too long ago historically speaking.

The funny thing is, those ignorant and bigoted Puritan churches in New England have evolved in that fairly short time into some of the most liberal, tolerant and progressive religious bodies in the world, far ahead of the established Church of England. Which just goes to show what you can do with time, freedom, and education.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm with all the people who posted that they hate mosques but love religious freedom so support their right to build.

In America, their right to build a mosque = my right not to have to go to church.

 

[jarofthoughts]

It's not a mosque.
It's not on Ground Zero.

The End.