Mosque at Ground Zero

[Kathryn]

Unfortunately, it has become a matter of civil liberties and the rights afforded to Americans under the Constitution. The point that must be made is not that bigotry is stupid, because all but the stupid people know that already. The point that must be made is that bigots, even if there are a lot of them, do not get to take away the religious freedom of a minority.

...I recognize that the right to religious freedom trumps my concerns -- legitimate concerns, I think -- about how people use that freedom. I may hate your religion, but I'll defend your right to practice it.

And I say that knowing perfectly well that I'll never get the same respect in return from either the Muslims or the Christians.

Hold your horses, Smoke - I definitely respect your opinion on this and not only that, I agree with you on about 99 percent of it.

I support their right to build the mosque/community center, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or think the Kahns are precious, innocent people with sweet, precious, innocent friends and investors either.

But - it's their right to build it and that's it in my book.

Heck, I shudder everytime I see another Planet Hollywood or ginormous Baptist bookstore going up - but I don't have to like something, or appreciate it, in order to agree that it's OK for it to be built.

 

[dogsgod]

Hold your horses, Smoke - I definitely respect your opinion on this and not only that, I agree with you on about 99 percent of it.

I support their right to build the mosque/community center, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or think the Kahns are precious, innocent people with sweet, precious, innocent friends and investors either.

But - it's their right to build it and that's it in my book.

Heck, I shudder everytime I see another Planet Hollywood or ginormous Baptist bookstore going up - but I don't have to like something, or appreciate it, in order to agree that it's OK for it to be built.

I would agree, but to suggest that it's tacky and insensitive to build this community center close to ground zero is over the top.

 

[YmirGF]

Heck, I shudder everytime I see another Planet Hollywood or ginormous Baptist bookstore going up - but I don't have to like something, or appreciate it, in order to agree that it's OK for it to be built.

Well, I hear you if that is any consolation, Kathryn. I don't think I have ever said that there was any question that it is within their rights to build the damned thing. They are free to do as they wish.

I wonder... will they have segregated swimming for women and men? Will women be permitted to wear skimpy bikini's?

 

[Kathryn]

I would agree, but to suggest that it's tacky and insensitive to build this community center close to ground zero is over the top.

Over the top? It's simply my opinion.

Both your opinion and mine are subjective. And you have a right to yours and I have a right to mine.

And they have a right to build the mosque/community center.

I'm the least of their worries - I SUPPORT their right to build the damn thing. And I would never protest against it or discriminate against a Muslim, or even be slightly rude to one - as long as he's not piloting a plane into a building or wandering off into a crowded marketplace with a bomb strapped to his belly. Or a supporter of those who do so.

I doubt that any of the Muslims I know are of that ilk. My Muslim neighbors, friends, and customers seem like very nice, thoughtful, pleasant people - well, except for one, but I think he's got some personal problems.

 

[dogsgod]

Simply your opinion based on what, that somehow there's a connection between community builders and those that flew airliners into buildings?

 

[TashaN]

Well, I hear you if that is any consolation, Kathryn. I don't think I have ever said that there was any question that it is within their rights to build the damned thing. They are free to do as they wish.

I wonder... will they have segregated swimming for women and men? Will women be permitted to wear skimpy bikini's?

To build the damned thing? :areyoucra

You are way out of line here Paul.

 

[YmirGF]

To build the damned thing? :areyoucra

You are way out of line here Paul.

I am offended that you would take a common figure of speech to be "out of line". Perhaps you are reading something into it that is not there.

 

[TashaN]

I am offended that you would take a common figure of speech to be "out of line". Perhaps you are reading something into it that is not there.

Maybe!!!

 

[kai]

Simply your opinion based on what, that somehow there's a connection between community builders and those that flew airliners into buildings?

you mean there isnt ? or are we still ignoring the gorilla in the room.

 

[kai]

you mean there isnt ? or are we still ignoring the gorilla in the room.

how far is this Islamic centre from ground zero? , i read two blocks , what's that in English? i mean how long would it take you to walk there from ground zero?

There must be some reason for all the fuss? Its a sensitive issue Ground zero is there because some Muslims put it there in the name of Their religion.

Thats a fact.

Now some other Muslims want to build an Islamic cultural centre near /far away ( i am not sure about how far i is) so is it far enough away to not be sensitive at all or what? I am wondering if it was in fact far enough away to not be sensative then we wouldnt be having this conversation but like i asked how far away is it by foot?


my position is : let them build it , its their right to do so if the follow planning procedure, but are the proposers in all innocence surprised by the concern ? or should i say uproar , but i have an English sense of spatial awareness that says near is in spitting distance. does it matter ? not to me but it seems to matter to a lot of Americans.

I am not supporting the against camp but i am not surprised by their position either.

 

[Alceste]

how far is this Islamic centre from ground zero? , i read two blocks , what's that in English? i mean how long would it take you to walk there from ground zero?

There must be some reason for all the fuss? Its a sensitive issue Ground zero is there because some Muslims put it there in the name of Their religion.

Thats a fact.

Now some other Muslims want to build an Islamic cultural centre near /far away ( i am not sure about how far i is) so is it far enough away to not be sensitive at all or what? I am wondering if it was in fact far enough away to not be sensative then we wouldnt be having this conversation but like i asked how far away is it by foot?


my position is : let them build it , its their right to do so if the follow planning procedure, but are the proposers in all innocence surprised by the concern ? or should i say uproar , but i have an English sense of spatial awareness that says near is in spitting distance. does it matter ? not to me but it seems to matter to a lot of Americans.

I am not supporting the against camp but i am not surprised by their position either.

If you think "ground zero" has anything to do with it, you're sadly mistaken. It really is only about whipping up hatred toward Muslims and it's happening across the country. IMO, what's behind it is the desire by opinion makers in the arms and resource industries to create a public climate that's favorable for additional wars with oil-rich countries that happen to be mainly populated by Muslims.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201008260020

ARLINGTON (Texas?)— Hundreds of worshipers attend Friday prayers at the Dar El-Eman Islamic Center in south Arlington.
This past Friday, they were greeted by stick figure graffiti in the parking lot, depicting Uncle Sam sexually assaulting Allah.
Then early Sunday morning, someone torched the children's playground behind the mosque.

JACKSONVILLE. (Florida) -- Investigators are not saying that an explosion and fire set off Monday night at a mosque is a hate crime, but they are calling it "targeted."

Worshipers at the Islamic Center of Northeast Florida heard a loud noise outside the mosque shortly before evening prayers Monday night.
"There was a blast outside and a couple of gentlemen got up, they opened the back door and there was fire," said Ashraf Shaikh of the Islamic Center of Northeast Florida.

"Several of the members ran outside and observed fire along the back wall of the building at which time one of them grabbed the fire extinguisher and extinguished the fire," said Lt. Robert Stephens, of the state Fire Marshal's Office. "In speaking with the leadership of the congregation...obviously they're concerned and rightfully so."

MURFREESBORO, (Tennessee). — Muslims trying to build houses of worship in the nation's heartland, far from the heated fight in New York over plans for a mosque near ground zero, are running into opponents even more hostile and aggressive.
Foes of proposed mosques have deployed dogs to intimidate Muslims holding prayer services and spray painted "Not Welcome" on a construction sign, then later ripped it apart.
Two years ago, several men broke into the Islamic Center of Columbia, about 30 miles southwest of Murfreesboro, and torched it with molotov cocktails, stealing a stereo system and painting swastikas and "White Power" on the front of the building.

By the way, two blocks means two streets (or possibly avenues) away.


Matt Sledge: Just How Far Is the "Ground Zero Mosque" From Ground Zero?

 

[Richard Hayman]

I oppose this mosque being built there... Not because I hate Islamic views more than say Christian, but rather on the grounds that we as a species don't need any more religious institutions.

 

[Smoke]

Hold your horses, Smoke - I definitely respect your opinion on this and not only that, I agree with you on about 99 percent of it.

I support their right to build the mosque/community center, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or think the Kahns are precious, innocent people with sweet, precious, innocent friends and investors either.

But - it's their right to build it and that's it in my book.

I'm not sure what accounts for the 1% we disagree on; your position as stated here seems to coincide with my own.

 

[Smoke]

To build the damned thing? :areyoucra

You are way out of line here Paul.

I am offended that you would take a common figure of speech to be "out of line". Perhaps you are reading something into it that is not there.

Thanks to both of you for amusing me so early in the morning.

 

[Smoke]

I oppose this mosque being built there... Not because I hate Islamic views more than say Christian, but rather on the grounds that we as a species don't need any more religious institutions.

In that case, the "there" doesn't really have anything to do with it, does it?

 

[Smoke]

By the way, two blocks means two streets (or possibly avenues) away.

It's downtown -- way downtown -- so the rules of thumb that apply farther uptown don't really work.

how far is this Islamic centre from ground zero? , i read two blocks , what's that in English? i mean how long would it take you to walk there from ground zero?

A New Yorker would walk it in about a minute or less. A tourist would walk it in maybe three minutes. Not that a tourist would. That end of Park Place isn't one of those streets that everybody walks down. There's not much there, by New York standards, and not much reason to go there. It's the kind of place where you could visit New York a hundred times and never see it, or live even live there all your life and never see it. If they ever get Park 51 built, that will probably catch the attention of tourists for the very first time.

What I'm trying to say is that is really is very close, but it's situated in such a way that nobody would ever notice it if such a ruckus hadn't been raised.

The only reason I'm familiar with it at all is that I worked in the next block for several years, and walked right past the proposed site of Park 51 every day. Otherwise, there's absolutely nothing about that block that would have caught my attention.

I am not supporting the against camp but i am not surprised by their position either.

I'm against the against camp, but I'd have been shocked if this hadn't happened.

 

[Kathryn]

I'm not sure what accounts for the 1% we disagree on; your position as stated here seems to coincide with my own.

Well, I don't hold the same distaste as you do for churches, mosques and synagogues. So that's our 1% spread.

 

[Kathryn]

how far is this Islamic centre from ground zero? , i read two blocks , what's that in English? i mean how long would it take you to walk there from ground zero?

The site is 600 feet from Ground Zero. The landing gear from one of the planes actually landed IN this building, and the site was covered with debris, and the ashes of 3000 victims, when the towers collapsed.

There must be some reason for all the fuss? Its a sensitive issue Ground zero is there because some Muslims put it there in the name of Their religion.

Thats a fact.

Yes. Awkward things, facts.

my position is : let them build it , its their right to do so if the follow planning procedure, but are the proposers in all innocence surprised by the concern ? or should i say uproar , but i have an English sense of spatial awareness that says near is in spitting distance. does it matter ? not to me but it seems to matter to a lot of Americans.

I agree. And to be frank, it really doesn't matter to ME as an American. Though I was definitely impacted by the events of 9/11 - as Americans were in general - I don't live in NYC, and I didn't lose a loved one there or in Pennsylvania or Washington DC. So, being the libertarian soul that I am, I don't claim to have a dog in this hunt. Let it be built, and subject it to the same scrutiny as anyone else when it comes to the funding and the activities. That's my position - and the position of every single American I've discussed it with, by the way.

The majority of Americans (neary 70%) believe it is their right to build the damn thing. But nearly this same percentage also believe it's insensitive for them to do so. So what? SO WHAT if they believe it's "insensitive?" That doesn't make them knuckle dragging buffoons. It doesn't mean they would stand in the way of the building. It simply means they are skeptical of the motives, or at least the common decency, of the project's participants.

I'd rather be skeptical than naive any day. A healthy dose of skepticism never hurt anyone. But naivete can be deadly.

 

[Kathryn]

Nothing to see here: Right-wing media dismiss notion of nationwide "Islamophobia" | Media Matters for America[/url]



Matt Sledge: Just How Far Is the "Ground Zero Mosque" From Ground Zero?

]If you think "ground zero" has anything to do with it, you're sadly mistaken. It really is only about whipping up hatred toward Muslims and it's happening across the country.

Ground Zero has everything to do with it. There are 100 mosques in NYC alone, and they operate smoothly and without opposition. Just the other night, in my own area, we had an Open House at the local mosque and private school. It was very well attended by non Muslims, and very tastefully covered by the local media.

By the way, the local "Muslim spokesperson," (a prominent builder who sits on our local interfaith board) recently was arrested and charged with possession of illegal drugs. I can't help but think that bolstered his popularity locally.

By the way, two blocks means two streets (or possibly avenues) away.

In this case, it's 600 feet. It is in such close proximity to the site, that the landing gear from one of the planes went through it's roof on that fateful day.

IMO, what's behind it is the desire by opinion makers in the arms and resource industries to create a public climate that's favorable for additional wars with oil-rich countries that happen to be mainly populated by Muslims

Ah, yes, those sweet and precious Muslim extremists have absolutely nothing to do with the current skepticism toward Islam. So what's an errant plane or two, a few beheadings, coupla hijackings, and some hell raising in Malaysia and Iraq and India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and Nepal and the Maldives and Argentina and Mali and Angola and the Ukraine and Uganda...ad nauseum...

Just to put a bit of perspective on things - since AUGUST 14TH there have been 52 jihadist attacks, leaving 232 dead bodies and over 400 people injured.

This is an ongoing cycle - thinking people (including moderate Muslims) have a right to be alarmed and worried. In fact, if one is NOT alarmed and demanding oversight and accountability, I think that's a sign of being desperately naive.

I applaud those good Muslims who are honest enough to admit the problematic issues of the extremists of their faith, and who seek to eradicate the cancer of Islamic extremism from within their religion and culture. A good many moderate Muslims are also opposed to the location of this mosque/cultural center.

Opposition doesn't always translate into a denial of civil rights. Free speech is also a civil right - as important a civil right as the freedom of religion.

 

[Badran]

Ah, yes, those sweet and precious Muslim extremists have absolutely nothing to do with the current skepticism toward Islam. So what's an errant plane or two, a few beheadings, coupla hijackings, and some hell raising in Malaysia and Iraq and India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and Nepal and the Maldives and Argentina and Mali and Angola and the Ukraine and Uganda...ad nauseum...

Just to put a bit of perspective on things - since AUGUST 14TH there have been 52 jihadist attacks, leaving 232 dead bodies and over 400 people injured.

This is an ongoing cycle - thinking people (including moderate Muslims) have a right to be alarmed and worried. In fact, if one is NOT alarmed and demanding oversight and accountability, I think that's a sign of being desperately naive.

I applaud those good Muslims who are honest enough to admit the problematic issues of the extremists of their faith, and who seek to eradicate the cancer of Islamic extremism from within their religion and culture. A good many moderate Muslims are also opposed to the location of this mosque/cultural center.

Opposition doesn't always translate into a denial of civil rights. Free speech is also a civil right - as important a civil right as the freedom of religion.

It seems you really enjoy posting this stuff.

So, what are you saying, that all muslims and their activities should be subject to skepticism and in some cases opposition? Are you saying they should get special treatment?