metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
But the tactic now the Trumpettes are ready to use is to have those that certify election results be able to negate them if their party doesn't win the actual vote.
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Mostly to the US people (Civil war?)
- Thread starter Nimos
- Start date
They threatened that in 2020, but it didn't take. I suspect similar dynamics going forward.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Yeah, I hope so too.
It's more than that as threads I opened today illustrate with some going door to door to harass people and others playing games with the voting system. There was another story about a town totally divided and almost at war.
And of course there was January 6 and the attempt to murder people as well as to overthrow the government. We got right at the brink that day because if they had succeeded the "balloon would have gone up".
So I would classify it as a real risk especially with Der Donald getting ready to run again.
IMO, virtually all politicians are corrupt - to varying degrees. Further, I think most Dems - although corrupt - still mostly want to do the right thing. Of course their hands are severely tied by those oligarchs and 1%ers who corrupt them.
OTOH, I think the MAGA crowd truly is evil. They are willing to abandon logic, honesty, empathy, and compassion in order to achieve their goals.
So why are people so disgruntled? There are lots of reasons, but I think most of those reasons are easily traceable back to the oligarchs. And to paraphrase Christopher Hitchens:
Oligarchs poison everything!
exchemist
Veteran Member
I think some kind of violent civil breakdown is quite likely, though whether it would take the form of a civil war like the last one I don' know. Now that one of the two main political parties has given up on the electoral system and seeks to undermine its legitimacy, that is a likely path to insurrection and the end of democracy.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
For the last few years ago, I figured we were headed to a right-wing insurgency rather than an actual civil war. At some point Democrats will do well (nationally) in elections, and now that the right is of the mind that any Democrat win = fraud, they will see that as the final straw and will react via random attacks against the government (e.g., bombings, assassinations). I've even heard some right-wing talk radio shows say the same thing. Also, I think we're seeing the beginnings of that right now.
But I never saw it leading to a true civil war because I didn't see a path to it, where you have armies fighting armies. But then I read an article by a historian that changed my mind.
He basically explained that the Supreme Court turning things back to the states has created a situation where we have states with quite divergent laws on some very important issues, such as abortion access, voting, and civil rights. He then pointed out how it's inevitable that at some point Democrats will have firm control of Congress and the White House, which will allow them to codify some (or all) of those things into law. That, he said, may be enough for some states to try and secede from the US, which was the trigger for our last civil war. Or, some states may refuse to follow the law and if the feds decide to enforce the law via force, it could lead to an armed confrontation between the US military and state forces.
So IMO, I believe we're almost irreversibly going down a path of violent confrontations between the government and right-wingers who refuse to accept it as legitimate and accept being governed by it. The only questions are, just how violent they'll get and how many they convince to join them.
But I never saw it leading to a true civil war because I didn't see a path to it, where you have armies fighting armies. But then I read an article by a historian that changed my mind.
He basically explained that the Supreme Court turning things back to the states has created a situation where we have states with quite divergent laws on some very important issues, such as abortion access, voting, and civil rights. He then pointed out how it's inevitable that at some point Democrats will have firm control of Congress and the White House, which will allow them to codify some (or all) of those things into law. That, he said, may be enough for some states to try and secede from the US, which was the trigger for our last civil war. Or, some states may refuse to follow the law and if the feds decide to enforce the law via force, it could lead to an armed confrontation between the US military and state forces.
So IMO, I believe we're almost irreversibly going down a path of violent confrontations between the government and right-wingers who refuse to accept it as legitimate and accept being governed by it. The only questions are, just how violent they'll get and how many they convince to join them.
I predict no civil war.
The MAGAs whine & rail a lot.
But too few of them are actually willing to revolt.
(And I know about revolting.)
The MAGAs whine & rail a lot.
But too few of them are actually willing to revolt.
(And I know about revolting.)
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
My thoughts are broadly similar (although I'm obviously just peering in through your metaphorical windows)
Militant goodness might be required. Burly dudes in tac-gear making sure everyone says please, and helping old ladies across the road regardless of political persuasion.
No, I'm hoping there are enough sensible folks in the US that will refuse to put up with either major party.
However, if one party or the other tries to hold onto power against the will of the people there maybe a heighten civil unrest against that party.
If democrats don't win enough seats in a few days then there will be one more ste towards one party rule. If the republicans are able to take control over states and the federal government I don't see any way for democrats wil be allowed a chance to win. I'm not sure there will be a collapse of the USA, but it will be more like how Russia has existed over the last decade under putin. There won't be any checks on power, and at some point the DOJ will investigate and arrest democrats who seem to be a threat to republicans. Gays and LGTBQ people will be treated criminally. Abortion and gay marriage banned. Books banned. Education will be heavily skewed towards a conservative idealism about the USA. Slavery wasn't a bad idea, as slaves were happy and grateful to have jobs and free shelter, as an example. The pbs and npr will be eliminated. We could see a national news network like Russia has, but with FOX doing this job it will likley just be left as an "objective" news source. Journalism will suffer more attacks and lawsuits by the government, which will aim to cost them so much in legal fees that they can no longer operate, or have to publish right wing garbage.
So I don't think the USA will fail. Democracy will fail and most Americans will accept the changes because it won't affect them. Those who are targeted will be friends and family, and if you interfere you might be beaten and arested too. I suspect most in the USA will go along with the republicans because it will be the path of least resistance. The citizens of 1930s Germany were grateful that the Nazi party was able to end the depression and create jobs. Germany bounced back so fast from the depression (that was worse than the USA depression) that Berlin hosted the 1936 Olympic Games. It was the first modern Olympics where the pagentry was set as a standard. Idealists were critical of the prejudice against Jews, but it was largely ignored because the Nazis were doing a great job getting Germany back to work. There was even a Nazi party in the USA. Charles Lindberg was a huge fan of the Nazis. The war ruined all that, but it illustraes how power can corrupt a nation is left unchecked.
I had a long time frimned that suffered from substance abuse. He was a good guy, had a decent heart. But he had a problem. And friends and family lost a lot trying to hel him over and over again. Sometimes good people are troubled, and they will bring down those around them without being aware they are doing it. The family and frimneds I have who are MAGA are genuine in their beliefs, and they just can't see the problems that their votes could cost the rest of us. They just don't see it.
What would be your advice to avoid the afore mentioned situation? (Other than voting, which should be obvious.)
I think there might be one MAGA individual in the family, but most of us just hold our nose and vote(some for the red, some for the blue), trying to choose the lesser of the two evils.
I don't think there is any. I think the USA has to hit bottom for anyone to learn they made bad judgments. Many voters are not rational thinkers, and their voting shows this. That MAGAs win nominations is a huge failure. That these candidates will win is a massive failure. I think the USA just needs to fail.
I'm amazed how Liz Cheney, Michael Steele, Adam Kinzinger, Joe Scarboro, the people at the Lincoln project - all conservatives, Nicolle Wallace, etc. are all conservatives who were opponents with democrats 15 years ago, and now they are all on the same page with liberals as far as what is great about America, yet bad about MAGA. It is amazing to see how much Americans have in common, but MAGA exploits the worse in people.
It reminds me of another religious discussion website I was on called Beliefnet, and the atheists and liberal theists became unified against the religious extremists. It was an interesting alliance as it unified opponents and made us recognize a harsher and intolerant view.
This is how things will look after the war is over and the dust has settled.
No, and most generations of Americans value the unity we have and are willing to work towards making it better. The biggest cause of civil war is an unhappy aristocracy. This is what causes our original Civil War. When the wealth of a class of wealthy people is threatened there is an enormous reaction. When two large classes of wealthy people and industry are diametrically opposed and in direct competition then you have something like a war brewing. Currently that is not what we have.
I guess I better get to Minnesota....
Nimos
Well-Known Member
I agree, I weren't thinking of US soldiers splitting in two and fighting it out
But rather you have supporters on each side fighting each other, there are quite a few guns in the US amongst the citizens. I don't know how serious it is over there, as I said its the first I heard about them even talking about it in this way.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
I highly doubt it will be like the first civil war, but rather supporters having a go at each other more than one could expect, by using severe violence etc. Last time when Trump lost we saw the people willing to go very far. If he loses again it could go even further I guess.