Mueller indicts 13 Russian nationals over 2016 election interference

[Falvlun]

There is no law against Russians supporting.

Mueller apparently disagrees with you, seeing as he just indicted 13 Russians for doing that.

Do you even know what collusion means?

"secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others."

If Trump has some secret knowledge of illegal cooperation to deceive or cheat the election, I will speak in the chorus to call for, not only impeachment, but prison. But so far, there is NO EVIDENCE of that charge. If there is, show me. Bring forth the facts, don't tell me "we know" because we don't know. You speculate. Period.

You seem to be unable to separate the two aspects of the investigation:

1) To determine if and how Russia interfered in the 2016 election.

This has been proven beyond doubt. It has also been proven that Trump was the primary beneficiary of their influence campaign.

2) To determine if the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians.

This has not been proven. I believe there is evidence, but it might not turn out to be enough, or conclusive, or even illegal.

Now, reread the posts with this in mind. I have only claimed that (1) has been proven. You still expressed doubt that the Russians supported Trump, which at this point, is a fact that has been established by the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, and the special counsel.

 

[Revoltingest]

Mueller apparently disagrees with you, seeing as he just indicted 13 Russians for doing that.

I'll step in here to note they're being indicted for how they worked to influence the election.
In that process, they committed crimes, eg, not registering as a foreign agent.

 

[Falvlun]

I'll step in here to note they're being indicted for how they worked to influence the election.
In that process, they committed crimes, eg, not registering as a foreign agent.

I think it amounts to the same thing, but no problems with being precise.

I guess it would be more accurate to say (in a general way) that there’s a law against Russians sneakily supporting.

 

[Phantasman]

Mueller apparently disagrees with you, seeing as he just indicted 13 Russians for doing that.


You seem to be unable to separate the two aspects of the investigation:

1) To determine if and how Russia interfered in the 2016 election.

This has been proven beyond doubt. It has also been proven that Trump was the primary beneficiary of their influence campaign.

2) To determine if the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians.

This has not been proven. I believe there is evidence, but it might not turn out to be enough, or conclusive, or even illegal.

Now, reread the posts with this in mind. I have only claimed that (1) has been proven. You still expressed doubt that the Russians supported Trump, which at this point, is a fact that has been established by the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, and the special counsel.

#1 also includes what effect it had if any. So far, no effect. Even by the latest indictment.

Again, put your money where your mouth is. In fact, just show part one. We know the Russians, Chinese and many countries "try" to interfere, but so far there is no "proof" the election was effected.

Obama said that the election process was sound. Why don't you ask this guy why the so called "rigged election" happened on his watch. He thought, by his remarks, Hillary would win. When she didn't, she and the Dems did exactly what Obama said Trump shouldn't do when (if) he lost. QUESTION THE ELECTION.

 

[fantome profane]

There is no law against Russians supporting.

Mueller apparently disagrees with you, seeing as he just indicted 13 Russians for doing that.

And this could possibly be one of the reasons behind this indictment. Having now established that what the Russians did was actually a crime against the US, now it is clear that anyone who knowingly helped them is also guilty of a crime.

 

[Phantasman]

And this could possibly be one of the reasons behind this indictment. Having now established that what the Russians did was actually a crime against the US, now it is clear that anyone who knowingly helped them is also guilty of a crime.

True. Yet Christopher Steele is a foreign unregistered entity that did the same. Facebook posts and all. It shouldn't be one sided. Both sides need to be investigated.

 

[Revoltingest]

True. Yet Christopher Steele is a foreign unregistered entity that did the same. Facebook posts and all. It shouldn't be one sided. Both sides need to be investigated.

It gets even more entertaining....
Kremlin Tool: Michael Moore Participated In Russia-Sponsored Anti-Trump Rally
CNN and MSNBC Helped Russia Sow Discord by Promoting Fake Anti-Trump Rally

 

[metis]

That's just too funny. You may want to contact Mueller with this information, provided you can prove it.

What's funny, in a rather pathetic way, is how little you know about what the investigation is about. It's sole focus is on the issue of Russian interference with our 2016 election, which has clearly been established as even Trump admitted last week.

And since there are already four Trump staff who have agreed to a plea deal, that at the least establishes them as being likely conspirators in some way or they wouldn't have admitted guilt. Now, even basic legal logic should tell you that, since they've struck such a deal with Mueller, there are likely others in the Trump staff that may have also colluded with the Russians, intentionally or unintentionally.

Now, the issue of "obstruction of justice" has already been established by Trump when he was interviewed by Lester Holtz whereas he admitted he fired Comey because of wanting to stop the investigation. Now, whether that could result in a criminal charge is another matter.

The "obstruction of justice" issue is sort of a "side-bar" in that this is not the prime focus of the Mueller investigation, but it still can fall under the issue of "probable cause" as a separate entity. And this is serious as well since Nixon was brought up primarily on the issue of "probable cause".

So, your snarkiness only establishes the fact that you know so little about what's going on, and what you might know doesn't seem to have much of an effect on your highly partisan and blind support for such a morally-challenged president.

 

[Revoltingest]

And since there are already four Trump staff who have agreed to a plea deal, that at the least establishes them as being likely conspirators in some way or they wouldn't have admitted guilt. Now, even basic legal logic should tell you that, since they've struck such a deal with Mueller, there are likely others in the Trump staff that may have also colluded with the Russians, intentionally or unintentionally.

It's odd that you won't say what the plea deals are for.
You allude to collusion, but won't specifically claim it.
"Basic logic" requires something less tenuous.

 

[metis]

Even IF the Russians supported Trump, it doesn't bother me.

Now that falls under the category of being a "traitor". Not being bothered by another country trying to influence our election is a threat to our democracy, and with anyone with any knowledge of history, it can be regarded as a "declaration of war". Yes, we've done it to other countries ourselves, which I also think is highly unethical.

And when you say "Even IF the Russians supported Trump...", this has already been established by both the Mueller investigation but also with even many Republican members of Congress due to their investigations.

By chance, do you get most of your "news" from Fox, as it appears that you really don't know much of what's going on, and what you seem to maybe know you slant? I purposely use multiple sources, including even Fox occasionally.

 

[Revoltingest]

It seems that everyone is calling each other "traitor" these days.
I prefer to be merely "unpatriotic".

 

[metis]

Obama said that the election process was sound. Why don't you ask this guy why the so called "rigged election" happened on his watch. He thought, by his remarks, Hillary would win. When she didn't, she and the Dems did exactly what Obama said Trump shouldn't do when (if) he lost. QUESTION THE ELECTION.

You completely ignore the fact that Obama had warned the Trump camp prior to and just after the election that there appears to be Russian interference taking place, which is also why he imposed sanctions on the Russians that included shutting down two of the facilities they were using here just before and right after the election.

And why is it that Trump refuses to impose the sanctions on the Russians that was overwhelmingly passed by Congress and that which he signed into law? No explanation from Trump, btw, so why do you think he's not enforcing this law?

 

[metis]

Yet Christopher Steele is a foreign unregistered entity that did the same.

What do you mean by "unregistered entity" in regards to Steele? "Unregistered" where? here? the UK? where?

 

[columbus]

It gets even more entertaining....
Kremlin Tool: Michael Moore Participated In Russia-Sponsored Anti-Trump Rally
CNN and MSNBC Helped Russia Sow Discord by Promoting Fake Anti-Trump Rally

Those of us not blinded by partisanship don't give a whit about Michael Moore. Because he isn't president. This is just another batch of whataboutism.
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

Those of us not blinded by partisanship don't give a whit about Michael Moore. Because he isn't president. This is just another batch of whataboutism.
Tom

Nein, du haggisfressenden kimmelkopf!
It's about entertainment (as I so clearly said).
Perhaps you're not amused, but many of us chortle seeing
Mr Moore duped by the Russians.
Are you sure you don't have a thing for the rubenesque fellow?

 

[Falvlun]

#1 also includes what effect it had if any. So far, no effect. Even by the latest indictment.

Hold your horses. Before you go adding other things, I want you to confirm that you understand that it’s been established that the Russians interfered in the 2016 election with the primary intent of aiding the election of Trump and hindering the election of Hilary. There is no more “if” here.

As for the effect on the election, I’m not really sure if that is a focal point of Mueller’s investigation. As I noted before, it would really be impossible to quantify the effect of an influence campaign.

Again, as I already corrected you, you are going further than what Rosenstein stated. He didn’t claim that “no effect has been found”. He stated that there’s no current allegation that the defendants effected the election.

Again, put your money where your mouth is. In fact, just show part one. We know the Russians, Chinese and many countries "try" to interfere, but so far there is no "proof" the election was effected.

I never claimed that the election was effected. I claimed that it is known that the Russians waged an influence campaign to support Trump. You stated “Even IF the Russians supported Trump...”. That is the statement I obejected to, since it is proven that the Russians supported Trump.

 

[Revoltingest]

Another indictment....
Mueller Charges Ex-Skadden Lawyer With Lying in Russia Inquiry

 

[Falvlun]

Let me ask this.

If Hillary Clinton and the DNC, paid millions of dollars that went to Christopher Steele, to get "information" from "Russian Intelligence Agents" to prepare a dossier, is this not considered "collusion" with the Russians?

There is no paper trail where Trump paid Russia for anything. Yet the Clintons and the DNC have such a paper trail.

If you would kindly explain this to me.

Christopher Steele is a former British spy hired by Fusion GPS, a company that performs opposition research and was hired by the DNC to investigate Trump. Steele was a qualified professional with a legitimate company. This is not abnormal.

There are 2 key differences between the Steele Dossier, and possible Trump campaign collusion (including the Don Jr. meeting in Trump Tower).

1) Steele immediately went to the FBI with his findings. He did exactly what someone is supposed to do when you discover possible illegal activity. It was then the FBI’s job to corroborate his investigative work. This was not sneaky. This was not “covert collusion”. It was completely above board.

2) The Steele Dossier did not come from a foreign government. The Russians that Steele obtained information from were not doing it on behalf of their government. In contrast, the Russian influence campaign was done by the Russian government. The info offered to Don Jr was explicitly sourced as from the Russian government. There is a difference between foreign individuals vs foreign governments. You have the former with Steele, and the latter with Trump.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And why is it that Trump refuses to impose the sanctions on the Russians that was overwhelmingly passed by Congress and that which he signed into law? No explanation from Trump, btw, so why do you think he's not enforcing this law?

That does make Trump look suspiciously guilty. Not necessarily guilty, but it doesn't look good on him.

It seems that everyone is calling each other "traitor" these days.

I prefer to be merely "unpatriotic".

Traitor does seem to fit. They have no problems with a foreign government tampering in an American election--an action that taints and corrupts the system and weakens it overall--which means they pretty much bailed on supporting their beliefs as Americans.
To be unpatriotic, it really helps to avoid going on about ways to "Make America Great Again." To go from hearing it from Reagan to a guy the Russians helped, it doesn't look unpatriotic to me but rather this idea that anything is ok as long as it advances the party platform.

 

[Revoltingest]

That does make Trump look suspiciously guilty. Not necessarily guilty, but it doesn't look good on him.

Traitor does seem to fit. They have no problems with a foreign government tampering in an American election--an action that taints and corrupts the system and weakens it overall--which means they pretty much bailed on supporting their beliefs as Americans.
To be unpatriotic, it really helps to avoid going on about ways to "Make America Great Again." To go from hearing it from Reagan to a guy the Russians helped, it doesn't look unpatriotic to me but rather this idea that anything is ok as long as it advances the party platform.

Disagreeing with me?
Traitor!