Mueller indicts 13 Russian nationals over 2016 election interference

[Phantasman]

What's funny, in a rather pathetic way, is how little you know about what the investigation is about. It's sole focus is on the issue of Russian interference with our 2016 election, which has clearly been established as even Trump admitted last week.

And since there are already four Trump staff who have agreed to a plea deal, that at the least establishes them as being likely conspirators in some way or they wouldn't have admitted guilt. Now, even basic legal logic should tell you that, since they've struck such a deal with Mueller, there are likely others in the Trump staff that may have also colluded with the Russians, intentionally or unintentionally.

Now, the issue of "obstruction of justice" has already been established by Trump when he was interviewed by Lester Holtz whereas he admitted he fired Comey because of wanting to stop the investigation. Now, whether that could result in a criminal charge is another matter.

The "obstruction of justice" issue is sort of a "side-bar" in that this is not the prime focus of the Mueller investigation, but it still can fall under the issue of "probable cause" as a separate entity. And this is serious as well since Nixon was brought up primarily on the issue of "probable cause".

So, your snarkiness only establishes the fact that you know so little about what's going on, and what you might know doesn't seem to have much of an effect on your highly partisan and blind support for such a morally-challenged president.

I guess I'm snarky and pathetic, then. Any more names you want to use to try and force me to see your point?

 

[Phantasman]

You completely ignore the fact that Obama had warned the Trump camp prior to and just after the election that there appears to be Russian interference taking place, which is also why he imposed sanctions on the Russians that included shutting down two of the facilities they were using here just before and right after the election.

And why is it that Trump refuses to impose the sanctions on the Russians that was overwhelmingly passed by Congress and that which he signed into law? No explanation from Trump, btw, so why do you think he's not enforcing this law?

Why not just bomb the Russians, dirty ********.

Tillerson dismisses criticism on Russia sanctions amid growing questions

 

[Phantasman]

What do you mean by "unregistered entity" in regards to Steele? "Unregistered" where? here? the UK? where?

Outside persons of registration with the US government. Like the 13 Russians. Unregistered foreign agents of a certain country.

 

[Phantasman]

Hold your horses. Before you go adding other things, I want you to confirm that you understand that it’s been established that the Russians interfered in the 2016 election with the primary intent of aiding the election of Trump and hindering the election of Hilary. There is no more “if” here.

As for the effect on the election, I’m not really sure if that is a focal point of Mueller’s investigation. As I noted before, it would really be impossible to quantify the effect of an influence campaign.

Again, as I already corrected you, you are going further than what Rosenstein stated. He didn’t claim that “no effect has been found”. He stated that there’s no current allegation that the defendants effected the election.


I never claimed that the election was effected. I claimed that it is known that the Russians waged an influence campaign to support Trump. You stated “Even IF the Russians supported Trump...”. That is the statement I obejected to, since it is proven that the Russians supported Trump.

So far we know of a few instances of outside influence in the election. 13 Russians spent $100,000 for facebook and other media ads. plus organized some rallys that were not successful in swaying the election one way or the other. Considering that Hillary and Trump had spent a combined $68,000,000 dollars on ads, the Russians were a drop in the bucket.

The dossier paid for by Clinton and the DNC was in the millions of dollars. It was shown to have unreliable information.

Let's just be patient and see what happens.

 

[metis]

@Phantasman, I haven't read any of your posts today and I intentionally won't as I'd much rather just move on, especially since I have to leave shortly anyway.

 

[Phantasman]

Christopher Steele is a former British spy hired by Fusion GPS, a company that performs opposition research and was hired by the DNC to investigate Trump. Steele was a qualified professional with a legitimate company. This is not abnormal.

There are 2 key differences between the Steele Dossier, and possible Trump campaign collusion (including the Don Jr. meeting in Trump Tower).

1) Steele immediately went to the FBI with his findings. He did exactly what someone is supposed to do when you discover possible illegal activity. It was then the FBI’s job to corroborate his investigative work. This was not sneaky. This was not “covert collusion”. It was completely above board.

2) The Steele Dossier did not come from a foreign government. The Russians that Steele obtained information from were not doing it on behalf of their government. In contrast, the Russian influence campaign was done by the Russian government. The info offered to Don Jr was explicitly sourced as from the Russian government. There is a difference between foreign individuals vs foreign governments. You have the former with Steele, and the latter with Trump.

This remains to be seen. as I keep saying.

If you read the Republican side (attorneys), Steele and Clinton violated 18 USC 1001. If you read what the Democrats say, they disagree (attorneys).

In a legal battle of this proportion, you know nothing. Are you an attorney? The government has some of the best, yet are divided if something was lawful or not. Yet you think you know, which just makes me laugh.

I am merely posting the other side of what you, @metis, and others are saying. There ARE two sides. You see one. Guilty. You already have him impeached, out of office and in jail. No wonder he's having a hard time getting things done for the people of this country. He's only President of half of it.

It's this type thinking that will cause our eventual demise. And we deserve it.

"a house divided will not stand"-Jesus

 

[metis]

I have never said that Donald Trump is guilty of any Russian collusion, so any such accusation that I've done as such is just another bold-faced lie. It's called "bearing false witness" when one falsely accuses another, and one doesn't need to be a theologian in order to understand that.

 

[Underhill]

They didn't want Hillary either.
Threatening to "obliterate" them might've had something to do with it.

In context that statement is no different to what other presidents have said.

 

[Revoltingest]

In context that statement is no different to what other presidents have said.

That's not a very comforting excuse, given that past presidents have
overturned their government (when democracy worked against our
interests), & killed hundreds of thousands using bio & chem WMDS.
This history makes Hillary all the more believable.

 

[Falvlun]

So far we know of a few instances of outside influence in the election. 13 Russians spent $100,000 for facebook and other media ads. plus organized some rallys that were not successful in swaying the election one way or the other. Considering that Hillary and Trump had spent a combined $68,000,000 dollars on ads, the Russians were a drop in the bucket.

The dossier paid for by Clinton and the DNC was in the millions of dollars. It was shown to have unreliable information.

Let's just be patient and see what happens.

If you can’t accept that the Russians waged an influence campaign on behalf of Trump and against Clinton, then any opinion you have on this rests on a faulty foundation.

It is a fact that the Russians supported Trump and worked against Clinton. When you accept this, we can move on to deeper questions.

 

[Phantasman]

If you can’t accept that the Russians waged an influence campaign on behalf of Trump and against Clinton, then any opinion you have on this rests on a faulty foundation.

It is a fact that the Russians supported Trump and worked against Clinton. When you accept this, we can move on to deeper questions.

I'm done with this thread for now. I'll come back to it when the special investigation finds all the facts and concludes.

Go look up the Indictment from Mueller that is online. Go to subject matter #53 and #57.

53. In or around late June 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators used the Facebook group “United Muslims of America” to promote a rally called “Support Hillary. Save American Muslims” held on July 9, 2016 in the District of Columbia. Defendants and their co-conspirators recruited a real U.S. person to hold a sign depicting Clinton and a quote attributed to her stating “I think Sharia Law will be a powerful new direction of freedom.” Within three weeks, on or about July 26, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators posted on the same Facebook page that Muslim voters were “between Hillary Clinton and a hard place.”

57. After the election of Donald Trump in or around November 2016, Defendants and their coconspirators used false U.S. personas to organize and coordinate U.S. political rallies in support of then president-elect Trump, while simultaneously using other false U.S. personas to organize and coordinate U.S. political rallies protesting the results of the 2016 U.S. presidential election. For example, in or around November 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators organized a rally in New York through one ORGANIZATION-controlled group designed to “show your support for President-Elect Donald Trump” held on or about November 12, 2016. At the same time, Defendants and their co-conspirators, through another ORGANIZATION-controlled group, organized a rally in New York called “Trump is NOT my President” held on or about November 12, 2016. Similarly, Defendants and their co-conspirators organized a rally entitled “Charlotte Against Trump” in Charlotte, North Carolina, held on or about November 19, 2016.

They weren't just supporting Trump. They also supported Hillary at one point. They were against Trump at an even different point. They were just causing division, period. And you are falling for it. I'm not going to let their "actions" influence my thoughts. They tried something. It failed (according to the Indictment). Or did it? You seem to rally around it.

https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download

 

[Falvlun]

This remains to be seen. as I keep saying.

What do you mean? You asked what the difference was between Steele and possible Russian collusion.

We know Steele wasnt working on behalf of a foreign government. That is the primary difference between him and possible Trump collusion with a foreign government.

We know Steele went to the FBI with his findings. He didn’t hide it.

We know that the Russian government waged an influence campaign in favor of Trump and against Clinton. We have no such evidence that a foreign government was working on behalf of Clinton.

We know that Don Jr went to a meeting to obtain info that he was told was from the Russian government.

None of that remains to be seen. These are all well established facts.

If you read the Republican side (attorneys), Steele and Clinton violated 18 USC 1001. If you read what the Democrats say, they disagree (attorneys).

In a legal battle of this proportion, you know nothing. Are you an attorney? The government has some of the best, yet are divided if something was lawful or not. Yet you think you know, which just makes me laugh.

Can you provide a source?

Everything I am saying is coming from the conclusions of the FBI, CIA, NSA, and the special counsel. If hiring Steele was an actual legal issue, why are none of these agencies mentioning it? The investigation is not yet over so it’s possible it may come up, but as it is, you are apparently giving more credence to something that our intelligence agencies and special counsel have not indicated to be an issue while ignoring the things that they have.

I am merely posting the other side of what you, @metis, and others are saying. There ARE two sides. You see one. Guilty. You already have him impeached, out of office and in jail. No wonder he's having a hard time getting things done for the people of this country. He's only President of half of it.

It's this type thinking that will cause our eventual demise. And we deserve it.

"a house divided will not stand"-Jesus

You are not “merely posting the other side of the issue.” You are denying the facts that we do know and you are promoting unevidenced or debunked theories.

Furthermore you are continually lying about mine and others position. Point out where I or others have stated that Trump is guilty of collusion and should be impeached?

We are saying that it is proven that Russia has worked to support Trump and denigrate Clinton. We are saying that there is some evidence that trump’s campaign colluded with the Russians.

We are not saying that it is proven that Trump or his campaign colluded. We are saying that we need to wait until Mueller’s investigation is completed.

Now, please put that straw man out in a field somewhere where it might do some good.

 

[Falvlun]

I'm done with this thread for now. I'll come back to it when the special investigation finds all the facts and concludes.

Go look up the Indictment from Mueller that is online. Go to subject matter #53 and #57.

53. In or around late June 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators used the Facebook group “United Muslims of America” to promote a rally called “Support Hillary. Save American Muslims” held on July 9, 2016 in the District of Columbia. Defendants and their co-conspirators recruited a real U.S. person to hold a sign depicting Clinton and a quote attributed to her stating “I think Sharia Law will be a powerful new direction of freedom.” Within three weeks, on or about July 26, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators posted on the same Facebook page that Muslim voters were “between Hillary Clinton and a hard place.”

Oh. My. God.

That was a method to discredit Hilary! How can you not see that?!

“Look guys! Hillary is for Muslims and Sharia law!”

How can you claim with a straight face that that was beneficial to Hilary in any way?

57. After the election of Donald Trump in or around November 2016, Defendants and their coconspirators used false U.S. personas to organize and coordinate U.S. political rallies in support of then president-elect Trump, while simultaneously using other false U.S. personas to organize and coordinate U.S. political rallies protesting the results of the 2016 U.S. presidential election. For example, in or around November 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators organized a rally in New York through one ORGANIZATION-controlled group designed to “show your support for President-Elect Donald Trump” held on or about November 12, 2016. At the same time, Defendants and their co-conspirators, through another ORGANIZATION-controlled group, organized a rally in New York called “Trump is NOT my President” held on or about November 12, 2016. Similarly, Defendants and their co-conspirators organized a rally entitled “Charlotte Against Trump” in Charlotte, North Carolina, held on or about November 19, 2016.

AFTER THE ELECTION!

They achieved their purposes: Get Trump elected!

Move on to phase 2: More Chaos!

Explain how a anti-Trump rally AFTER THE ELECTION hurt Trump’s chances OF GETTING ELECTED.

They weren't just supporting Trump. They also supported Hillary at one point. They were against Trump at an even different point. They were just causing division, period. And you are falling for it. I'm not going to let their "actions" influence my thoughts. They tried something. It failed (according to the Indictment). Or did it? You seem to rally around it.

https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download

They never supported Hilary.

Why do you ignore every other indictment in there showing their support of Donald Trump?

Again, why do you not understand that a PRIMARY focus on electing DONALD TRUMP and denigrating Clinton does not mean that they can’t do other things occasionally too?

 

[Underhill]

That's not a very comforting excuse, given that past presidents have
overturned their government (when democracy worked against our
interests), & killed hundreds of thousands using bio & chem WMDS.
This history makes Hillary all the more believable.

Right, except she was saying this in light of Russia's aggression towards our allies. Trump has said stuff almost as bad about our allies.

 

[Revoltingest]

Right, except she was saying this in light of Russia's aggression towards our allies. Trump has said stuff almost as bad about our allies.

Still doesn't sound comforting to people who've been repeatedly attacked by us before.

 

[Phantasman]

What do you mean? You asked what the difference was between Steele and possible Russian collusion.

We know Steele wasnt working on behalf of a foreign government. That is the primary difference between him and possible Trump collusion with a foreign government.

We know Steele went to the FBI with his findings. He didn’t hide it.

We know that the Russian government waged an influence campaign in favor of Trump and against Clinton. We have no such evidence that a foreign government was working on behalf of Clinton.

We know that Don Jr went to a meeting to obtain info that he was told was from the Russian government.

None of that remains to be seen. These are all well established facts.


Can you provide a source?

Everything I am saying is coming from the conclusions of the FBI, CIA, NSA, and the special counsel. If hiring Steele was an actual legal issue, why are none of these agencies mentioning it? The investigation is not yet over so it’s possible it may come up, but as it is, you are apparently giving more credence to something that our intelligence agencies and special counsel have not indicated to be an issue while ignoring the things that they have.



You are not “merely posting the other side of the issue.” You are denying the facts that we do know and you are promoting unevidenced or debunked theories.

Furthermore you are continually lying about mine and others position. Point out where I or others have stated that Trump is guilty of collusion and should be impeached?

We are saying that it is proven that Russia has worked to support Trump and denigrate Clinton. We are saying that there is some evidence that trump’s campaign colluded with the Russians.

We are not saying that it is proven that Trump or his campaign colluded. We are saying that we need to wait until Mueller’s investigation is completed.

Now, please put that straw man out in a field somewhere where it might do some good.

Like I said before, I am an Independent. I am not going to side with what the "liberals" see or what the "conservatives" see. Trump said he did not collude with Russia, the other side says he did. The indictment are actions of foreign actors. Trump didn't pull their strings. Nor did anyone in his campaign. The Indictment is against 13 Russians. No Americans. Not Trump or anyone in his campaign. No Americans. Are you seeing an American that needs to answer for this act? Where is he in the Indictment.

There is NO proof in the Indictment of Trump or his campaign COLLUDING with these actors. They were on their own, being backed by foreign entities, not any American, including Trump.

I seem to remember liberal organizations registering dead people to vote for Obama. They even were caught read handed. But the thousands of dead voters didn't have that much of an effect on the final election results. Neither did this Russian fiasco.

Both sides are corrupt, and I don't doubt that at all. But so far, I, seeing both sides, see no PROOF of THE MAN Trump doing anything illegal to win the election.

Just my non partisan view.

 

[Falvlun]

Like I said before, I am an Independent. I am not going to side with what the "liberals" see or what the "conservatives" see. Trump said he did not collude with Russia, the other side says he did. The indictment are actions of foreign actors. Trump didn't pull their strings. Nor did anyone in his campaign. The Indictment is against 13 Russians. No Americans. Not Trump or anyone in his campaign. No Americans. Are you seeing an American that needs to answer for this act? Where is he in the Indictment.

There is NO proof in the Indictment of Trump or his campaign COLLUDING with these actors. They were on their own, being backed by foreign entities, not any American, including Trump.

I seem to remember liberal organizations registering dead people to vote for Obama. They even were caught read handed. But the thousands of dead voters didn't have that much of an effect on the final election results. Neither did this Russian fiasco.

Both sides are corrupt, and I don't doubt that at all. But so far, I, seeing both sides, see no PROOF of THE MAN Trump doing anything illegal to win the election.

Just my non partisan view.

What does any of this have to do with you questioning why the Steele Dossier isn’t considered collusion with Russians?

Do you still think that’s a legitimate comparison?

I really don’t know why you keep responding to anything I say with “Trump collusion not proven!”. You can’t possibly still be under the impression that I’m claiming that.

 

[Phantasman]

What does any of this have to do with you questioning why the Steele Dossier isn’t considered collusion with Russians?

Do you still think that’s a legitimate comparison?

I really don’t know why you keep responding to anything I say with “Trump collusion not proven!”. You can’t possibly still be under the impression that I’m claiming that.

You said:

"We are saying that it is proven that Russia has worked to support Trump and denigrate Clinton. We are saying that there is some evidence that trump’s campaign colluded with the Russians.

We are not saying that it is proven that Trump or his campaign colluded. We are saying that we need to wait until Mueller’s investigation is completed."

I have said, as well, I will wait to see the collusion. Manifort is being charged with money laundering before the Trump campaign even began. He has not been proven guilty of any collusion with Russia while working on the Trump campaign.

Robert Mueller Subpoenas Paul Manafort's Global Bank Accounts in Russia Investigation

What evidence of collusion are you talking about in your words above? The words I have emboldened and underlined.

And then you say this:

"I really don’t know why you keep responding to anything I say with “Trump collusion not proven!”. You can’t possibly still be under the impression that I’m claiming that."

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You are saying "there is some evidence". Evidence is factual. It's used in court. Where is the evidence?

If you cannot present "evidence" it means you are "speculating".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

53. In or around late June 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators used the Facebook group “United Muslims of America” to promote a rally called “Support Hillary. Save American Muslims” held on July 9, 2016 in the District of Columbia. Defendants and their co-conspirators recruited a real U.S. person to hold a sign depicting Clinton and a quote attributed to her stating “I think Sharia Law will be a powerful new direction of freedom.” Within three weeks, on or about July 26, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators posted on the same Facebook page that Muslim voters were “between Hillary Clinton and a hard place.”

You cannot think of any possible ways for such a thing to be very strongly anti-Clinton/pro-Trump? The quote "I think Sharia will be a powerful new direction of freedom" is a pretty big indication that it wasn't really for Hillary, but rather stoking the fires of all the bigots who voted for Trump. Like those types doing Nazi Salutes after Trump "won."

 

[Underhill]

Like I said before, I am an Independent. I am not going to side with what the "liberals" see or what the "conservatives" see. Trump said he did not collude with Russia, the other side says he did. The indictment are actions of foreign actors. Trump didn't pull their strings. Nor did anyone in his campaign. The Indictment is against 13 Russians. No Americans. Not Trump or anyone in his campaign. No Americans. Are you seeing an American that needs to answer for this act? Where is he in the Indictment.

There is NO proof in the Indictment of Trump or his campaign COLLUDING with these actors. They were on their own, being backed by foreign entities, not any American, including Trump.

I seem to remember liberal organizations registering dead people to vote for Obama. They even were caught read handed. But the thousands of dead voters didn't have that much of an effect on the final election results. Neither did this Russian fiasco.

Both sides are corrupt, and I don't doubt that at all. But so far, I, seeing both sides, see no PROOF of THE MAN Trump doing anything illegal to win the election.

Just my non partisan view.

Yeah, you're right about the indictments. But we do know for a fact that multiple members of Trumps staff met with the Russians, and we know his son had a meeting specifically about Russia helping Trump in the election. These may not rise to the level of arrestable offenses. But when coupled with the current batch of arrest, it's hard not to see collusion as likely to anyone with any sense.