Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in the Eyes of Non-Muslims

[England my lionheart]

why don't we have Muhammad's original Quran? Is there any record of him presenting it to his enemies(ie the King of Byzentium). The Quran was likely published by a Caliph after the death of Muhammad using his status as a deiefied general/prophet to support his empire. but i do not know Middle Eastern common history extensively; so can anyone enlighten me?

It was Abu Bakr the first Caliph who first compiled the Quran,he was chosen by Muhammed but other factions preffered Muhammeds son in law Ali.
Some generations later this would cause the split in the religion,one faction would be Sunni who followed the Caliphs and Shi'ite who would only follow direct decendants of Ali.
There were more than one version of the Quran and i think it was the third Caliph Usaman who ordered some destroyed,i think it was then edited with additions of vowel and consanant marks(correct me if i am wrong).

 

[Evandr]

Maybe you should read a few pages back where he called my cousin a chicken for risking his life in Afganistan. My post was meant to be cynnical, if you've seen my other posts on this board you will know that i do not respond well to such things. Please bear in mind i very much respect a lot of theists on this board for being much much more than simply sheep who reproduce the bible word for word.

Granted, but I still think we can both agree that insults that are intended as such reveal weakness in our own character. It's hard sometimes not to respond with indignant reproach, I should know, I've been on both ends of that stick, but I also know that it only exacerbates things and never serves a worthy purpose. Whatever the situation was with your cousin I am sure that what eselam says won't change anything. Sometimes a manifestation of precisely placed quiet indignation can hit home a lot harder and be felt a lot longer than any continued indifference to the collateral damage done to other people's view of you because of an intense and prolonged indignant stance.

 

[kai]

I hesitate to say it but there is no original Quran there is a standardised Quran organised by third Caliph Uthman.


The Qur’an in its present form is generally considered by academic scholars to record the words spoken by Muhammad because the search for variants in Western academia has not yielded any differences of great significance and because, historically, controversy over the content of the Qur’an has never become a main point


Qur'an - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Evandr2]

Granted, but I still think we can both agree that insults that are intended as such reveal weakness in our own character. It's hard sometimes not to respond with indignant reproach, I should know, I've been on both ends of that stick, but I also know that it only exacerbates things and never serves a worthy purpose. Whatever the situation was with your cousin I am sure that what eselam says won't change anything. Sometimes a manifestation of precisely placed quiet indignation can hit home a lot harder and be felt a lot longer than any continued indifference to the collateral damage done to other people's view of you because of an intense and prolonged indignant stance.

I agree and I like the name too. Does this make us related?

 

[Luminous]

so...

 

[Evandr]

I agree and I like the name too. Does this make us related?

Very funny "Bro" :sarcastic I like it here and you said you probably would never come again so I took the name. Guess we'll just have to make the best of it.

 

[Gharib]

It was Abu Bakr the first Caliph who first compiled the Quran,he was chosen by Muhammed but other factions preffered Muhammeds son in law Ali.
Some generations later this would cause the split in the religion,one faction would be Sunni who followed the Caliphs and Shi'ite who would only follow direct decendants of Ali.
There were more than one version of the Quran and i think it was the third Caliph Usaman who ordered some destroyed,i think it was then edited with additions of vowel and consanant marks(correct me if i am wrong).

nice try i have to addmit, but you are wrong. it wasn't the way you say it or with the people you say it, i think some more research would you you some good.

and you are wrong, completely. the kur'an is one version no more no less, we have never chaged or edited a sigle word, nor even a letter. Allah made a promise that the kur'an will remain unchanged untill the last day (day of judgment), so that is true.

 

[Steinninn]

nice try i have to addmit, but you are wrong. it wasn't the way you say it or with the people you say it, i think some more research would you you some good.

and you are wrong, completely. the kur'an is one version no more no less, we have never chaged or edited a sigle word, nor even a letter. Allah made a promise that the kur'an will remain unchanged untill the last day (day of judgment), so that is true.

But do you have any proof of this other then that it says so in the Quran and that God said so?

 

[Gharib]

But do you have any proof of this other then that it says so in the Quran and that God said so?

well i didn't live during muhammeds (saws) time so no

 

[kai]

nice try i have to addmit, but you are wrong. it wasn't the way you say it or with the people you say it, i think some more research would you you some good.

and you are wrong, completely. the kur'an is one version no more no less, we have never chaged or edited a sigle word, nor even a letter. Allah made a promise that the kur'an will remain unchanged untill the last day (day of judgment), so that is true.

not since Uthman anyway.

 

[England my lionheart]

nice try i have to addmit, but you are wrong. it wasn't the way you say it or with the people you say it, i think some more research would you you some good.

and you are wrong, completely. the kur'an is one version no more no less, we have never chaged or edited a sigle word, nor even a letter. Allah made a promise that the kur'an will remain unchanged untill the last day (day of judgment), so that is true.

So what is the difference between Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims? and why did Uthman distribute a standardised Quran? and why does Saudi distribute different Qurans to various countries?

 

[Gharib]

So what is the difference between Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims? and why did Uthman distribute a standardised Quran? and why does Saudi distribute different Qurans to various countries?

there is no difference between the two names, when it came to Ali (ra) to be chosen as a khaliph, oner group in Syria rose and chose another one of their own, so there is no diference, except that the sunnies are traced back through Ali (ra) and the shia are traced back through the other man chosen.

what do you mean by standardised kuran. i don't understand what that means.

its the same kuran, i have never heard of another kuran other than the real original, can you give me some mor info on that, expand on it a bit more.

 

[England my lionheart]

there is no difference between the two names, when it came to Ali (ra) to be chosen as a khaliph, oner group in Syria rose and chose another one of their own, so there is no diference, except that the sunnies are traced back through Ali (ra) and the shia are traced back through the other man chosen.

what do you mean by standardised kuran. i don't understand what that means.

its the same kuran, i have never heard of another kuran other than the real original, can you give me some mor info on that, expand on it a bit more.

Uthman Qur'an - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Hope this helps

 

[Steinninn]

So what is the difference between Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims? and why did Uthman distribute a standardised Quran? and why does Saudi distribute different Qurans to various countries?

You can find out on Wikipedia. There was despute if they should follow the bloodline or elected leader. The elected leader always killed the newborn child that was to be the leader of the faith. Until the seventh or something newborn child came into the world and was hidden away. Something like that.

 

[England my lionheart]

You can find out on Wikipedia. There was despute if they should follow the bloodline or elected leader. The elected leader always killed the newborn child that was to be the leader of the faith. Until the seventh or something newborn child came into the world and was hidden away. Something like that.

What a beautiful religion

 

[islamcity]

What a beautiful religion

brother eselam and Steinninn have clearly quoted the main differnce among shia and sunnah, the debate over who was the rightfull khalif after the blessed prophet muhamad (s.a.w). England my lionheart if you are looking to find and keen on find the differences between the sunni and shia perspectives i strongly suggest you read
book named (peshawar nights). I am not sure if you my find it on google books however its great book which is basically the exact occurance of a debate or discussion that occured between a shia scholar and sunni scholars which occured in peshawar in pakistan.

 

[England my lionheart]

brother eselam and Steinninn have clearly quoted the main differnce among shia and sunnah, the debate over who was the rightfull khalif after the blessed prophet muhamad (s.a.w). England my lionheart if you are looking to find and keen on find the differences between the sunni and shia perspectives i strongly suggest you read
book named (peshawar nights). I am not sure if you my find it on google books however its great book which is basically the exact occurance of a debate or discussion that occured between a shia scholar and sunni scholars which occured in peshawar in pakistan.

I was mistaken,i thought Islam was about God and not about Holy Men,there are so many
Hadiths and which ones are true or false the mind boggles.
IMO this is where it all goes wrong,this Man said this or that and who follows who or Islamic terrorists are not Muslims and so on,so dissapointing.

 

[islamcity]

I was mistaken,i thought Islam was about God and not about Holy Men,there are so many
Hadiths and which ones are true or false the mind boggles.
IMO this is where it all goes wrong,this Man said this or that and who follows who or Islamic terrorists are not Muslims and so on,so dissapointing.

I dont see such disapointment in the way you speak...
Yeas islam is trully about god however gods message ust be delivered by someone, we cannot simply be awaare of islamic religous knowledge, it must be delivered to us by someone we can understand. Yes there are hadiths which are false any person can fabricate a hadith, anything could have happned over 1400 years. Thats why when we are given a hadith it is not authentic unless it complies by the quran and also simply by the peson who narrated it. Even untill now people who live there lifes to destroy religons are trying to create new qurans and fabricatring ahadith, i've seen with my eyes.
The only reason there are so many prophets and messengers is so people do not claim that they did not know or had no one to teach them, so they dont use such excuses.Every civilzation or people had a source of guidance.

:sleep:Got To Go

 

[England my lionheart]

I dont see such disapointment in the way you speak...
Yeas islam is trully about god however gods message ust be delivered by someone, we cannot simply be awaare of islamic religous knowledge, it must be delivered to us by someone we can understand. Yes there are hadiths which are false any person can fabricate a hadith, anything could have happned over 1400 years. Thats why when we are given a hadith it is not authentic unless it complies by the quran and also simply by the peson who narrated it. Even untill now people who live there lifes to destroy religons are trying to create new qurans and fabricatring ahadith, i've seen with my eyes.
The only reason there are so many prophets and messengers is so people do not claim that they did not know or had no one to teach them, so they dont use such excuses.Every civilzation or people had a source of guidance.

:sleep:Got To Go

Well people could be taught to read Arabic so they can read the Quran for themselves and that way there could be no false Hadiths,this is the problem with religion it is administered by Man.

 

[Alla Prima]

I was mistaken,i thought Islam was about God and not about Holy Men,there are so many
Hadiths and which ones are true or false the mind boggles.
IMO this is where it all goes wrong,this Man said this or that and who follows who or Islamic terrorists are not Muslims and so on,so dissapointing.

That's easy. The authentic Hadiths are the ones which support the image of Islam that Muslims want the West to see.

It's called a Presuppostional Defense of Islam.

1. A Muslim presuppositionalist assumes that all of the sayings and actions of Muhammad must be good.
2. Thus, any unfavorable historical record about Muhammad is automatically rejected as a false report, because the initial assumptions do not allow for any negative historical evidence.