Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in the Eyes of Non-Muslims

[Evandr]

that violence has it's reasons i have tolled them but i will tell you again, most non muslims made promises to the muslims and then betrayed them so then they evenged that treachury.

eselam, what you say distresses me because your clerics are usurping the power of God to give and take away life. Aside from that I also believe that such a standard of action is self-defeating.

First; the person killed is already lost to Islam, any devotion of their past has been voided and can have no reward even after death.

Second; the practice itself is most presumptuous and I fear that the one in greatest danger of judgment is the promoter of such a policy.

Third; Acting against a Father, Brother, Son, or any other family member only weakens the stability of that family’s ability to further embrace Islam. It is far easier to witness such executed against another until that person is a family member. It is my considered opinion that such a practice is unrighteous, uncalled for, and counter productive to you religion. I also believe that if it were given to an open vote within the adhearants of Islam, the practice would be done away with.

Fourth; I believe that the practise weakens the claim that Allah is a just God for only those who are found out are destroyed and those who's hearts are already gone still remain and, indeed, are pushed even further away by such a cruel and unusual policy.
Fifth; what of the possibility that that same person would have repented of his actions, returned to then Islamic faith and then proceeded to do much good for your people?

 

[Steinninn]

well the people who are muslims, who have revolved around it know that islam is the only true religion (no offence to the other beleifs) so it is in no way allowed for people to change their beleif, thus they are executed in order to keep the good deeds of before (ie. as a muslim) and to leave the rest of the matter to Allah, this is my perspective from my knowledge so i can't say that it is 100% accurate.

I met a man in Kenya that was from Egypt, he was a former muslim but had to flee his country because his family was going to kill him for turning christian. This is so so very sad.

 

[England my lionheart]

well the people who are muslims, who have revolved around it know that islam is the only true religion (no offence to the other beleifs) so it is in no way allowed for people to change their beleif, thus they are executed in order to keep the good deeds of before (ie. as a muslim) and to leave the rest of the matter to Allah, this is my perspective from my knowledge so i can't say that it is 100% accurate.

Thats why there are so many Muslims,there is only an entry with no exit:no:

 

[Steinninn]

Thats why there are so many Muslims,there is only an entry with no exit:no:

Not in every country.

 

[England my lionheart]

The Egyptian Observer: Once a Muslim always a Muslim!

Hi Steinninin, what do you think of this i think it explains things quite well.

 

[Breathe]

Not in every country.

Maybe there is no capital punishment within those countries, but there is still a social pressure, and often some would be willing to take an apostates life into their hands for Allah, even in liberal countries such as Bosnia and Turkey, you will find hardcore Muslims who would have no problem about doing such things.

You're hard-pressed to find such things within any Western nation, though!

 

[England my lionheart]

This is the problem i have with the Muslim faith because if adhered to it is rigid with no grey area,it is absolute,unbending,the A to Z of life.
There has been talk of "moderate Muslims" but where are they? they cannot change the word of the Quran or progress from the 7th century IMO.
I like freedom and if i wished i could be a Catholic today Buddhist tommorow and a Wiccan at the weekend and nobody would say diddly squat but if you are a Muslim it is very difficult to change although there are a number of converts out there.

 

[Breathe]

You're right, England - I agree with you 100%.

What is a "moderate Muslim"? A "moderate Muslim" is just a "Muslim" - and in the West, to us, a moderate Muslim would probably be a liberal Muslim, and a moderate Muslim to a conservative one is going to be conservative. I doubt we would find a Muslim say, "Oh, he's moderate, we're staunchly conservative and unbending in our ideals and beliefs".

Because Islam is a complete A-Z of life, I suppose this has off-put me. Who I am is who I am.

I do not want to have things done in my life I do not agree with because God tells me - I do not want to become circumcised because the prophets were (actually, Muhammad amongst others is believed to have been born WITHOUT a foreskin, doesn't that mean one should NOT be circumcised? ), I do not want to grow a beard because the prophets did. I do not want to change my name because 'that's what most converts do' - I do not want to be a clone; I want to be me.

There is a lot about me I would have to change to be a Muslim. Clothing, food (even though I do not drink, eat shellfish, and generally don't eat pork, I don't really agree with halal - but where I live it's becoming ever difficult to find non-halal food!!), language, etc.

Islam seems so much of an A-Z way of life that it appears less divine, and more human, than many other religions! Just look at, for example, fasting if one was in the Antarctic - it's not feasible, and Allah did not seem to know that within this place, Ramadan would be impossible..

 

[YmirGF]

no it is called "the evolution deceit" and it too is from Harun Yahya, at the very first pages it proves the theory wrong let alone to read the whole thing, i haven't read it all yet but only about 20-30 pages and it is exceptionally good.

That is pretty impressive, I will have to admit. You know, when you stop to consider that Harun Yahya is not a scientist -- this almost becomes a miracle -- as there isn't a scientist anywhere on the planet who would take Adnan Oktar's writing seriously. I will assume that this is yet another example of the charming Muslim humor, Eselam, as you must be joking.

*Takes Eselam by the hand*
"Let us see what a little research about Harun Yahya brings up, shall we?"

The Mighty Wikipedia article on Adnan Oktar (Harun Yahya)

Born in Ankara, Turkey in 1956, Adnan Oktar lived there through his high-school years. In 1979, he moved to Istanbul to attend an interior-design course at Mimar Sinan University but left before graduation.

In the early 1980s, he gathered young students around him to share his views of Islam. According to his former mentor, Edip Yüksel, Oktar was attempting to "[mix] mysticism with scientific rhetoric".[11] These students belonged to socially-active and prosperous families of Istanbul.[12] From 1982 to 1984, a group of 20 to 30 was formed.

In 1986, Adnan Oktar published the book, Judaism and Freemasonry. The book suggests that the principal mission of Jews and Freemasons in Turkey was to erode the spiritual, religious, and moral values of the Turkish people and, thus, make them like animals, as stated in what Oktar refers to as the "Distorted Torah."[12][13] Oktar asserts that "the materialist standpoint, evolution theory, anti-religious and immoral lifestyles were indoctrinated to the society as a whole" by Jews and Freemasons.[12]
Following the publication of Judaism and Freemasonry, Adnan Oktar was arrested and imprisoned.[11] He was transferred to Bak&#305;rköy ---> Mental Hospital <--- and placed under observation.[14] According to his official biography he was released after 19 months.[15] In a 2007 interview on Al Jazeera, he blamed Freemasons saying it was a "message" for him not to write about them anymore.[14]

In 1990, he founded the Bilim Ara&#351;t&#305;rma Vakf&#305; (BAV) or Scientific Research Foundation (SRF), in Turkish,, through which he still functions. Members of the SRF are sometimes referred to as Adnan Hocac&#305;lar ("Adherents of Adnan the Hodja") by the public[16]. Then in 1995, he founded Millî De&#287;erleri Koruma Vakf&#305; (Foundation for Protection of National Values), through which he networks with other traditional Islamist and nationalist organizations and individuals.

Richard Dawkins (a real biologist) on the work of Adnan Oktar (Harun Yahya)

I am at a loss to reconcile the expensive and glossy production values of this book with the "breathtaking inanity" of the content . Is it really inanity, or is it just plain laziness &#8212; or perhaps cynical awareness of the ignorance and stupidity of the target audience &#8212; mostly Muslim creationists. And where does the money come from?

Der Spiegel's Interview with Adnan Oktar (Harun Yahya)

Spiegel Online: In May, you were sentenced by a Turkish court for having created an illegal organization for personal gain.

Adnan Oktar: Yes, there had been an allegation of a criminal organization. Yes, I was accused of being a gang leader. I have been given a penalty of three years&#8217; imprisonment. This needs to be ratified by the Supreme Court of Appeals. If the Supreme Court of Appeals ratifies this verdict, I will be given three years&#8217; imprisonment.

... and so we can only hope ...

Are there any other Muslim "scientists" you would like to bring up, Eselam?

 

[Luminous]

well the people who are muslims, who have revolved around it know that islam is the only true religion (no offence to the other beleifs) so it is in no way allowed for people to change their beleif, thus they are executed in order to keep the good deeds of before (ie. as a muslim) and to leave the rest of the matter to Allah, this is my perspective from my knowledge so i can't say that it is 100% accurate.

i was told that muhamud said every one was born muslim.

 

[YmirGF]

i was told that muhamud said every one was born muslim.

Well, one has to consider the source, when hearing odd statements such as that. :drool:

 

[Gharib]

i was told that muhamud said every one was born muslim.

you have been tolled right, children are innocent, thus they are muslim untill they chose their own fate.

 

[Azakel]

you have been tolled right, children are innocent, thus they are muslim untill they chose their own fate.

Sorry to tell you this but, no. Or At lest I wasn't, never have never will.
If anything I was born Pagan like my Ancient Ancestors where.

 

[Breathe]

Sorry to tell you this but, no. Or At lest I wasn't, never have never will.
If anything I was born Pagan like my Ancient Ancestors where.

You raise a good point.

One could easily say all children are Pagan, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Agnostic, Atheist, Buddhist, Sun worshippers, Goddess worshippers, you name it.

Saying children are born Pagan or Buddhist is equally as valid as saying they are Muslim, after all, there is no evidence, not a single scrap of proof proof that they are born as a religion, and if they were they would probably be born into the religion of their parents.

 

[darkendless]

you have been tolled right, children are innocent, thus they are muslim untill they chose their own fate.

I sure as hell wasn't born a muslim, thus, what are you on about?

People aren't born believeing in God, they're brainwashed in their early years

 

[Luminous]

well, I KNOW i was born AGNOSTIC and we are all agnostic, whether admitted or not.
but in the end, a true 'islam(surrender)' to God requires for us to admit we are agnostic;
then, allow the Holy Spirit to guide and heal us.

 

[Luminous]

you have been tolled right, children are innocent, thus they are muslim untill they chose their own fate.

and i don't think calling oneself muslim makes one innocent, or that being innocent requires one to be Muhammad Muslim.

 

[Evandr]

you have been tolled right, children are innocent, thus they are muslim untill they chose their own fate.

At what age is a young person deemed at the point where they can choose their own fate?

Is there a grace period wherein a young person can choose not to be Muslim without being hated, abused, or sought after and executed? Having to face such tyranny, it is no wonder that many, who would otherwise select a different path, choose Islam instead of exile or a life living in fear of death. Either way, if the heart that is not Muslim, the person is not Muslim even though fear makes them appear to be so on the outside.

Forgive me for saying so eselam, but it is extraordinarily evident that this claim you have of killing being a righteous act to save the individual is nothing more than a convenient excuse for the indignant murder and bloodshed of anyone who questions the tenants of Islam. It is further evident that Allah is a weak and cruel God (I believe that Allah does not exist except in the minds of Islam) and Mohammad was a bloodthirsty tyrant who built a Mafia style following. It is sad that this group has been successful for centuries at perpetuating the idea that Mohammad was a prophet simply to further their own cruel designs when in fact his claim to being a prophet was a rouse used to control the people and support his henchmen.

 

[Steinninn]

(I believe that Allah does not exist except in the minds of Islam) and Mohammad was a bloodthirsty tyrant who built a Mafia style following. It is sad that this group has been successful for centuries at perpetuating the idea that Mohammad was a prophet simply to further their own cruel designs when in fact his claim to being a prophet was a rouse used to control the people and support his henchmen.

These are all your opinions, and millions of people dissagree with you (and millions agree with you). But no one can prove one or the other.

And the word Allah means God, so you are saying that God only exict in our minds?!?

Sorry to tell you this but, no. Or At lest I wasn't, never have never will.
If anything I was born Pagan like my Ancient Ancestors where.

Please try to understand what eselam means when he sais muslim. To him it is not a religious group, but a state of mind. Meaning "Bow to the will of God" (or something similar to that, can't remember the exect words). So no one can prove what state of mind children are. So he believes that they are in a state of total obedience to the will of God, this state he calles muslim. And then he believes that some people sway away from it, following another religion. Right? Right?

Just as some people believe that children are born pegan. This is what Azakel believes, and who are we to shun him and tell him he is wrong. I woun't, not beound saying that I believe something els.

And to eselam, you rely should be carefull when putting out such statements unless you explain better what you mean. And do correct me if the above is not true, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

 

[Luminous]

... the word Allah means God, so are you saying that God only exists in our minds?!?

If you are speaking/writing english than stop calling it Allah. and start calling it God or The Only God, etc.

Please try to understand what eselam means when he sais muslim. To him it is not a religious group, but a state of mind. Meaning "Bow to the will of God" (or something similar to that, can't remember the exect words)..

I'm pretty sure Islam means surrender is Arabic (ironic)

So no one can prove what state of mind children are..

you might agree that they are tabula rasa and therefor agnostic

Just as some people believe that children are born pegan. This is what Azakel believes, and who are we to shun him and tell him he is wrong. I woun't, not beound saying that I believe something els.
.

I would. its just not true. children are born human and then are made to stray from the path by outside and inside forces(there is no barriers between outside and inside)