Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in the Eyes of Non-Muslims

[Azakel]

Please try to understand what eselam means when he sais muslim. To him it is not a religious group, but a state of mind. Meaning "Bow to the will of God" (or something similar to that, can't remember the exect words). So no one can prove what state of mind children are. So he believes that they are in a state of total obedience to the will of God, this state he calles muslim. And then he believes that some people sway away from it, following another religion. Right? Right?

Just as some people believe that children are born pegan. This is what Azakel believes, and who are we to shun him and tell him he is wrong. I woun't, not beound saying that I believe something els.

I understand, one of many way to tell people they F'ed up when they grew up and chose a false religion. Heard it all the time, no matter how you say it, nice or not that's what it comes down to.
And as a note, I don't believe I or anyone else was born Pagan, I was proving a point. Some people got that, and thank you if you did.

 

[Luminous]

I didn't get it, but i didn't care. you'd still be wrong. both of you. Who doesn't agree that human life starts tabula rasa and therefor agnostic?

 

[Azakel]

I didn't get it, but i didn't care. you'd still be wrong. both of you. Who doesn't agree that human life starts tabula rasa and therefor agnostic?

You don't get what I'm saying so I'm wrong, right. You're just as arrogant as as those you say people are born Muslim. Get this, I was saying I don't believe people are born as Muslim, Christian, Jew, Pagan or anything like that. I was just trying to use an example, understand to prove a point.

 

[Luminous]

no i mean i didn't get that you were kidding. i dought that you are right but how would i know?

 

[ayani]

as a former Muslim, my views of Muhammad are these:

as a Muslim, i identified as Quran-alone. i distanced myself and my practice of islam from the hadith as much as possible. i found many of the narratives about Muhammad's life and practices to be alarming and unsettling- so i stuck to the Quran as my sole source of religious authority, ignoring Muhammad as best i could.

as a Christian, i do not believe Muhammad was sent nor inspired by God, the same God who sent His Son Jesus into the world to teach us and save us. in no way can i reconcile God saying through Christ "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" with His saying centuries later through another man "defensive warfare is permitted, as is punishing those who oppose your faith".

Muhammad may have been sincere, and inteligent. there are many who suppose that Muhammad fabricated the Quran for his own gain. i disagree. when surat were revealed to him, it is reported that he would sweat and shake, as though something came over him suddenly. i do not refute the possibility that something supernatural was speaking to and through Muhammad, but whatever was speaking to and motivating Muhammad, that it was not ultimately from the same God whom i worship and call "Father".

 

[Gharib]

At what age is a young person deemed at the point where they can choose their own fate?

Is there a grace period wherein a young person can choose not to be Muslim without being hated, abused, or sought after and executed? Having to face such tyranny, it is no wonder that many, who would otherwise select a different path, choose Islam instead of exile or a life living in fear of death. Either way, if the heart that is not Muslim, the person is not Muslim even though fear makes them appear to be so on the outside.

Forgive me for saying so eselam, but it is extraordinarily evident that this claim you have of killing being a righteous act to save the individual is nothing more than a convenient excuse for the indignant murder and bloodshed of anyone who questions the tenants of Islam. It is further evident that Allah is a weak and cruel God (I believe that Allah does not exist except in the minds of Islam) and Mohammad was a bloodthirsty tyrant who built a Mafia style following. It is sad that this group has been successful for centuries at perpetuating the idea that Mohammad was a prophet simply to further their own cruel designs when in fact his claim to being a prophet was a rouse used to control the people and support his henchmen.

at the age of 14 a child is able to chose his own fate, but it doesn't matter if it happens later, all their sins become good deeds.

ok look if muhammed (saws) was a false prophet then how did he know that a cloud becomes tall like a mountain whet it releases rain, or that a child in the woumb of its mother starts to get the human form at 40 days old. how could he have known this, i didn't know this, so how could an illiterate man have such knowledge.

it is really sad for me to see that you guys have the information infront of you but still ignore it.

i was reading a hadith and it said this, when a person dies an angel goes to his grave and asks him about muhammed (saws) if the dead person was a muslim, he says i know who he is, i folloed him while on earth. then when a non muslim is asked he says i only heard of him that wich other people spoke about him, but i never folloed him, then the punishment starts there i think for a non muslim.
i don't know how people can just ignore this, when you too have said that our reigion has been aroud for so many years. don't you understand what your own statement means?

 

[kai]

at the age of 14 a child is able to chose his own fate, but it doesn't matter if it happens later, all their sins become good deeds.

ok look if muhammed (saws) was a false prophet then how did he know that a cloud becomes tall like a mountain whet it releases rain, or that a child in the woumb of its mother starts to get the human form at 40 days old. how could he have known this, i didn't know this, so how could an illiterate man have such knowledge.
Why do Muslims think that in 600AD people were virtually ignorant of natural phenomena and Human reproduction etc? man had been around for millienia come on please.
it is really sad for me to see that you guys have the information infront of you but still ignore it.
Thats exactly what i would say to you
i was reading a hadith and it said this, when a person dies an angel goes to his grave and asks him about muhammed (saws) if the dead person was a muslim, he says i know who he is, i folloed him while on earth. then when a non muslim is asked he says i only heard of him that wich other people spoke about him, but i never folloed him, then the punishment starts there i think for a non muslim.
i don't know how people can just ignore this, when you too have said that our reigion has been aroud for so many years. don't you understand what your own statement means?

Why on earth do you beleive this? thats always my question ,what makes you beleive this? just because someone told you or you read it in a book?

 

[ayani]

eeslam-

peace. i agree that the Quran is quite beautiful in its structure, style, and arresting in the scope of its contents. it rhymes, and there are indeed certain passages that indicate understandings of the natural world that would have been out of Muhammad's grasp.

and while i agre it is possible that "one man could not have written such a remarkable text by himself", i would argue that the source of that incredible inspiration was not Godly. supernatural in wisdom and insight perhaps, but not ultimately of God.

 

[Breathe]

Why on earth do you beleive this? thats always my question ,what makes you beleive this? just because someone told you or you read it in a book?

That's a good question.
Is there any proof whatsoever of angels asking such a question? Heh

 

[darkendless]

Why on earth do you beleive this? thats always my question ,what makes you beleive this? just because someone told you or you read it in a book?

Kai; why are you asking a question you know you won't get a logical answer to

 

[Luminous]

At what age is a young person deemed at the point where they can choose their own fate?

Is there a grace period wherein a young person can choose not to be Muslim without being hated, abused, or sought after and executed? Having to face such tyranny, it is no wonder that many, who would otherwise select a different path, choose Islam instead of exile or a life living in fear of death. Either way, if the heart that is not Muslim, the person is not Muslim even though fear makes them appear to be so on the outside.

Forgive me for saying so eselam, but it is extraordinarily evident that this claim you have of killing being a righteous act to save the individual is nothing more than a convenient excuse for the indignant murder and bloodshed of anyone who questions the tenants of Islam. It is further evident that Allah is a weak and cruel God (I believe that Allah does not exist except in the minds of Islam) and Mohammad was a bloodthirsty tyrant who built a Mafia style following. It is sad that this group has been successful for centuries at perpetuating the idea that Mohammad was a prophet simply to further their own cruel designs when in fact his claim to being a prophet was a rouse used to control the people and support his henchmen.

When one choses their own fate is when one choses their own fate. but can anyone really chose their own 'fate'?

 

[Luminous]

why don't we have Muhammad's original Quran? Is there any record of him presenting it to his enemies(ie the King of Byzentium). The Quran was likely published by a Caliph after the death of Muhammad using his status as a deiefied general/prophet to support his empire. but i do not know Middle Eastern common history extensively; so can anyone enlighten me?

 

[Evandr]

at the age of 14 a child is able to chose his own fate, but it doesn't matter if it happens later, all their sins become good deeds.

ok look if muhammed (saws) was a false prophet then how did he know that a cloud becomes tall like a mountain whet it releases rain, or that a child in the woumb of its mother starts to get the human form at 40 days old. how could he have known this, i didn't know this, so how could an illiterate man have such knowledge.

it is really sad for me to see that you guys have the information infront of you but still ignore it.

i was reading a hadith and it said this, when a person dies an angel goes to his grave and asks him about muhammed (saws) if the dead person was a muslim, he says i know who he is, i folloed him while on earth. then when a non muslim is asked he says i only heard of him that wich other people spoke about him, but i never folloed him, then the punishment starts there i think for a non muslim.
i don't know how people can just ignore this, when you too have said that our reigion has been aroud for so many years. don't you understand what your own statement means?

eselam, It is not my intention to insult your beliefs for the sake of insult, it just appears that my statements have a reasonable foundation upon which to stand. Allah (your name for God) does not fit what could be reasonably deemed as the condescension of a God toward His own creations, in this case, living human beings, however, it does fit the mold of what Satan would have our concept of God to be.

Sins becoming Good Deeds? What you are saying is all that a person has to do after living a life of sin, totally ignoring ethics, honor, morality, and honesty is to convert to Islam and then die a short while later. According to you this person would receive the same afterlife as one who sacrificed their whole life to Islam. That totally ignores the concepts of Justice and gives everyone reason to ignore Islam until the last minute. Funny thing is, I have to admit that there are many Christian religions that accept the concept of Death-Bed-Repentance. It just fails to fit the concept of a just God.

Medical and atmospheric knowledge was not absent during the time of Mohammad. Any learned advisor with the ability to observe things of a medical or weather-centered nature could have advised him of such and more.

What if the angel you speak of asks a person about his knowledge of Mohammad and the reply is "I know of him and I followed him for a time but I completely rejected him just before I was killed". It seems reasonable to me that such a person would be put in the rank-and-file of those who did not believe in the first place because if all Allah was interested in was action and then death, void of the concepts of devotion, integrity, and character, what is this whole earth experience for other than to be the killing grounds wherein many, many an innocent child is sent to Hell.

Why would an angel ask about Mohammad in the first place, why would the questions not be about Allah?

What of those who never had the opportunity to hear of Mohammad? Are they damned?

Does Allah allow for repentance? If so then what of those your people kill who would have repented of their sins?

And the biggest question of all - How can you worship a God such as your Allah when he is unable or unwilling to create a plan that prevents so many of his children (your spiritual brothers and sisters) from so easily being damned to Hell for eternity without first having a perfect knowledge of the choice they are making when they reject Islam? No one in mortality has such knowledge, it is all faith based.

 

[Evandr]

Kai; why are you asking a question you know you won't get a logical answer to

Hey, eselam is trying to answer the best he can to defend his beliefs against some pretty tough questions so try to keep the slamming to a minimum, OK :yes:

 

[kai]

Kai; why are you asking a question you know you won't get a logical answer to

because i am fascinated by people who believe things "just because" I have a deep seated need to know:yes:

 

[Gharib]

why don't we have Muhammad's original Quran? Is there any record of him presenting it to his enemies(ie the King of Byzentium). The Quran was likely published by a Caliph after the death of Muhammad using his status as a deiefied general/prophet to support his empire. but i do not know Middle Eastern common history extensively; so can anyone enlighten me?

the kur'an was written during the time of prophet Muhammed (saws). i had this part wrong too. the kur'an was written on paper and Muhammed (saws) revised it with Jebraeel (as), during his last year on earth the Kur'an was revised twice. it wasn't written after the death of Muhammed (saws) but instead during his life time. and Allah has promised Muhammed (saws) that the kur'an will remain unchanged till the day of judgement, and muhammed (saws) was pleased with this because it meant that he will have more people than any other prophet.

 

[Gharib]

Why on earth do you beleive this? thats always my question ,what makes you beleive this? just because someone told you or you read it in a book?

what ever makes you not beleive it, then the opposite of that makes me beleive it. is that a good answer?

look we humans are considered to be the most intelligent beings on this planet, ok. so why do some topics show just how smart some of us really are, you see the planet doing its job and do you think it is by chance? thats ridiculous. so even humans were created by chance. and if we were created by chance then why can't we create real live humans? don't we have such powers, or do we let chance do that for us. if we can't compete with chance then what in the hell are we living for, it is chance that made us smart and the rest of the creatures brainless, why are so many milions of species mindless and only one out of those milions of species has a brain that actually works?

again as you can see we fall into the concept of islam, Alla created everything only to serve us. thus we have powers over all other creatures. get it?

 

[kai]

what ever makes you not beleive it, then the opposite of that makes me beleive it. is that a good answer? you beleive it because someone told you to or because you read it in a book?

look we humans are considered to be the most intelligent beings on this planet, ok. so why do some topics show just how smart some of us really are, you see the planet doing its job and do you think it is by chance? thats ridiculous. so even humans were created by chance. and if we were created by chance then why can't we create real live humans? don't we have such powers, or do we let chance do that for us. if we can't compete with chance then what in the hell are we living for, it is chance that made us smart and the rest of the creatures brainless, why are so many milions of species mindless and only one out of those milions of species has a brain that actually works?

again as you can see we fall into the concept of islam, Alla created everything only to serve us. thus we have powers over all other creatures. get it?

I get it, but i dont have to accept it if it seems too rediculous. no offence but you can beleive what you want to and many people do. I dont think you quite understand the principles of evolution and natural selection or the cast time scales involved here.

 

[darkendless]

Hey, eselam is trying to answer the best he can to defend his beliefs against some pretty tough questions so try to keep the slamming to a minimum, OK :yes:

Maybe you should read a few pages back where he called my cousin a chicken for risking his life in Afganistan. My post was meant to be cynnical, if you've seen my other posts on this board you will know that i do not respond well to such things. Please bear in mind i very much respect a lot of theists on this board for being much much more than simply sheep who reproduce the bible word for word.

 

[YmirGF]

I get it, but i dont have to accept it if it seems too rediculous. no offence but you can beleive what you want to and many people do. I dont think you quite understand the principles of evolution and natural selection or the cast time scales involved here.

Eselam reminds me of the proverb in English, "Better to say nothing and have people think you a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." The more I hear from Muslims, the more I feel I am listening to trained parrots that have no real spiritual understanding of their own -- so they keep spouting the same old drivel. Apparently ignorance, like misery, loves company.