Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in the Eyes of Non-Muslims

[gnostic]

but they could have remembered them and passed them on generation after generation. ok ok heres something else, by your claims and by historical evidences as well there seems to be a problem here, you speak as if it was just one person who hated Muhammed (saws) and so he had no one to tell about Muhammed (saws). what i'm saying is that everyone accepted Muhammed (saws) as being a great man and leader and this one person didnt want to become a muslim so he wanted to say bad things about Muhammed (saws) but had no one to tell it to. am i right or am i wrong? thats what YOU are saying in accordance to your information so far, not me

This whole paragraph is so naive. Things are not so black-and-white. People can observe and criticize without hating.

You seemed to think that everyone who say something critical about Muhammad that someone is immediately branded bad.

I hated to say this, but you have the same cowboy mentality as the Americans that Muslims hate so much. There's only good guys in your world, eselam, and everyone is bad, so you shoot first and ask question later. It is same mentality, but instead of cowboys versus indians, is Muslims against the whole world.

That's narrow-mindedness.

I don't deny Muhammad being prophet or a great man. I just don't believe everything written about him in his time, were not without biased embellishments.

 

[darkendless]

i think were goin in circles here.



well they could have gone to a non muslim coutry and complained there and tolled the people of the other country what a bad man Muhammed (saws) was.



but they could have remembered them and passed them on generation after generation. ok ok heres something else, by your claims and by historical evidences as well there seems to be a problem here, you speak as if it was just one person who hated Muhammed (saws) and so he had no one to tell about Muhammed (saws). what i'm saying is that everyone accepted Muhammed (saws) as being a great man and leader and this one person didnt want to become a muslim so he wanted to say bad things about Muhammed (saws) but had no one to tell it to. am i right or am i wrong? thats what YOU are saying in accordance to your information so far, not me



i havn't read any hadiths, a couple maybe. where did i say i have. i said we remembered them ( do you understand what i mean by we, the muslims, not me nesessaraly)



well the other countries sure might have hated him.
you probably can't go to saudi arabia but you sure can to a non muslim country.
and by the way are you an ozzie?

Unfortunately like Gnostic has pointed out things are not so black and white. 1400 years ago where would they have gone. Foreigners attracted rediculous taxes based on ther appearance. Most people had no choice but to stay and either keep quiet or accept Islam.

Im an Aussie yes

 

[YmirGF]

dear friend
can you please watch your tounge when you say something about the prophet (saws) now unless you too wish to be offended please go ahead other wise please be quiet.

Hiya Eselam! Yep, it's that pesky rat again.

One thing I have noticed over the decades is that generally speaking people are free to be critical of Jesus Christ and Christians, as a rule, will not get terribly upset over their comments. Most will just sigh and ignore the person making the comment.

What I have always found fascinating about Muslims is how incredibly sensitive they are about any less-than-glowing comments about their "prophet". To me, this knee-jerk reaction (to defend the "prophet") can only be a sign of deep personal insecurity. My own thoughts on the matter are that this is due to Muslims aquiencesence to Muhammed's exhortations given in:

A collection of the ahadith in Sahih Bukhari

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 13:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

"Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is, none of you will have faith till he loves me more than his father and his children."
​

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 14:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said "None of you will have faith till he loves me more than his father, his children and all mankind."

​

To my thinking, this is perhaps the most horrific thing that Muhammed was ever reported to have said. To think that Muslims accept the idea as being reasonable is an affront to every being ever created. Muhammed has, in effect, placed himself above all other created beings with this statement -- all the while teaching that "God has no partners" and yet, that is precisely what he set himself up to be. It is almost shocking that Muslims do not see this simple truth.

Muslims will quickly point out that they do not worship Muhammed, and therefore it is silly to suggest that he made himself a partner to God. The fly in the oatmeal here is that one of the definitions of worship is: "2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion <a celebrity worshipped by her fans>".

Given that the adoration Muslims feel for Muhammed makes him a partner to God, contrary to one of the basic principles of Islam, it isn't much of a surprise that Muslims get a bit steamy when people take a poke at their esteemed "prophet".

I am not claiming this is the truth of the matter, however, this is exactly how it seems to me. I will readily admit that I could be wrong though.

 

[moonyman]

What can I say on your day
When every day is your day?
O Muhammad ! O Taha ! O shafi’na on the Last Day!
From the day you stood to say:
O Man ! I’m but a man
Sent to save you, sent to tell you
The way that’ll lead you away
From the one who led you astray
To the One Who made you ’n the best way
And gave you beauty and bounty in every way
And will yet give you joy where you’ll stay
For ever and ever, as you say !
From that day,
O Muhammad ! O Taha ! O shafi’na on the Last Day !
Men came to you on foot and horseback;
They said as you said
And prayed as you prayed
And when attacked, they fought back.
You lived in a shack
While your beauty was brighter than the moon ;
You ate with your hands
While one with your beauty would use a gold spoon ;
You sat on the sands
While one with your glory
Would build himself storey upon storey :
And that’s why your story
Has gone as far as Brunei and Zinjibar
And London and New York
Where people eat with a knife and fork,
They too say as you said
And pray as you prayed
And when wrongly questioned, they answer back.
O Muhammad ! O Taha ! O shafi’na on the Last Day !
What can I say on your day
When every day is your day ?
From just a few those who came to you
Filled every hill, swamped every dale,
They made Time stand still till their tale
Made the mightiest kingdoms frail
And brought the Muslim flag as close as Prague !
The Arabian Nights tells of made-up knights
And of Harun al-Rasheed
Whose life the Truth of your Message
Made eed upon eed !
And yet someone came to draw
A pic of a man whose peer he never saw,
And papers and commentators
Seeking cheap money and fake glory
Made every story
Out of the Story of the man whose glory
Defies all Posts and all Tribunes and all Times !
O Muhammad ! O Taha ! O shafi’na on the Last Day!
What can I say on your day
When every day is your day?
When your name has brought fame
To a Dane who became insane?
What can I say on your day
When night and day
Souls repeat your words
As if they were songs of jungle birds!
Peace be upon you and all those who followed your way!
O Muhammad ! O Taha ! O shafi’na on the Last Day!

 

[K.Venugopal]

[I got the following from the Net. This outline biography, backed by the Quran, raises serious theological questions about sherk (raising partners with Allah) and whether Mohammad was the author of the Quran or at least interpolated as he wished.]
[FONT=&quot]
A biography of Prophet Mohammad reconstructed from ayats of Quran.

MOHAMMAD WAS INITIALLY NOMINATED AS A SLAVE
He started his career in Mecca with the rank of a Slave.
2.23 We reveal verses unto our slave Muhammad. His duties were just to warn people.
25.1 He is a warner to the peoples.

HE WAS NO BETTER THAN AN AVERAGE PERSON.
He didn't even know if God intended to put him in hell or heaven.
46.9 I do not know what will be done with me I am just an ordinary warner.

HE HAD NO AUTHORITY
He had no power or charge over the people.
17.54 We, have not sent thee to take charge of them.

AFTER FEW YEARS MOHAMMAD WAS MADE A PROPHET/MESSENGER
98.2 I am messenger/prophet from Allah.

ORIGINALLY HIS MESSENGERSHIP WAS ONLY FOR MECCA AND IT'S SUBURBS
6.92 And this (the Qur'an) is a blessed Book which We have sent down, confirming (the revelations) which came before it, so that you may warn the Mother of Towns (i.e. Makkah) and those around it.
42.7 We sent by inspiration to thee so that you warn the Mother of Cities (Mecca) and those around her.

THEN HE WAS MADE A MESSENGER FOR ALL ARABS
36.6 In order that you may warn a people whose forefathers were not warned, so they are heedless.
14.4 (Hilali / Khan) We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them.
44.58 We have made this Koran easy for thee in thine own tongue, that they may take the warning.
41.44 And if We had made it a Quran in a foreign tongue, they would certainly have said: Why have not its communications been made clear? What! A foreign tongue?(for us Arabs?)

LATER HE WAS MADE MESSENGER FOR ALL PEOPLES AND CREATURES
25.001: Blessed is He Who sent down the Quran upon His servant that he may be a warner to all the nations.
21.107 We have sent you as mercy unto all creatures.
In his new position it became mandatory for all to make Mohammad their judge in all disputes.
4.65 By the Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them.

HIS NEXT PROMOTION WAS "SEAL OF PROPHETS"
33.40 He is the "Seal of the Prophets". Seal of Prophets had additional perks of getting the top facilities in paradise.
17.79 (Hilali,Khan) Your Lord will raise you to Maqaman Mahmuda (a station of praise and glory, i.e. the highest degree in Paradise!).

HE WAS THEN PROMOTED TO "ASSOCIATE ALLAH"
As " Associate Allah", Mohammad’s orders were made at par with Allah's orders and both their names came side by side in decision making as well as authority to be obeyed.
3.32,4.13,59,69,5.92,8.1,20,46,9.71,24,47,51,52,54,56,33.33,47.33,49.14,58.13,64.12 "Obey Allah and obey Mohammed"
33.036: It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.

HIS FINAL PROMOTION WAS "ALLAH IN CHARGE"
Finally Allah decided to step down and give total authority to Mohammad.
4.80 Obeying Mohammed is obeying Allah. Giving a pledge to Mohammad became giving a pledge to Allah. 48:10 Verily, those who give pledge to you (O Muhammad) they are giving pledge to Allâh.

EVEN ALLAH SENT HIS PRAYERS TO MOHAMMAD.
33.56 (Hilali/Khan) Allah sends His Salat (prayers) and salutes to the Prophet (Muhammad SAW).[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Gharib]

Hiya Eselam! Yep, it's that pesky rat again.

good start

One thing I have noticed over the decades is that generally speaking people are free to be critical of Jesus Christ and Christians, as a rule, will not get terribly upset over their comments. Most will just sigh and ignore the person making the comment.

well just because the christians don't do anything that doesn't mean muslims should follow them, does it?
if i drown my self will you?

What I have always found fascinating about Muslims is how incredibly sensitive they are about any less-than-glowing comments about their "prophet". To me, this knee-jerk reaction (to defend the "prophet") can only be a sign of deep personal insecurity. My own thoughts on the matter are that this is due to Muslims aquiencesence to Muhammed's exhortations given in

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 13:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
"Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is, none of you will have faith till he loves me more than his father and his children."

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 14:
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet said "None of you will have faith till he loves me more than his father, his children and all mankind."

ok those hadiths are right. we need to love Muhammed (saws) more than our selves, so in a way if you speak about him you speakt to all the muslims, i hope thats not confusing.
we love him but not as much as Allah. we love Allah the most then we love Muhammed (saws) after Allah. in judgement day no one will be able to enter heaven without the prophet entering first. so why shouldn't we love him more than our self, when he is the key to eternla happiness?

To my thinking, this is perhaps the most horrific thing that Muhammed was ever reported to have said. To think that Muslims accept the idea as being reasonable is an affront to every being ever created. Muhammed has, in effect, placed himself above all other created beings with this statement -- all the while teaching that "God has no partners" and yet, that is precisely what he set himself up to be. It is almost shocking that Muslims do not see this simple truth.

thats not horrific? you too love your parents, children, wife etc. is that horrific?
and yes Muhammed (saws) has put himself above all other beings because Allah elevated him above everything.
and god does not have any partners, where have i said that he does?
thats not a simple truth, thats a fact. but not the way you put it.

Muslims will quickly point out that they do not worship Muhammed, and therefore it is silly to suggest that he made himself a partner to God. The fly in the oatmeal here is that one of the definitions of worship is: "2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion <a celebrity worshipped by her fans>".

we do not worship Muhamed (saws) we follow his message wich leads us to Allah (and i did quicly point that out didn't i).
that worship definition could also be said for those who take care of their car, their animals, veggies etc. they don't worship a car they just love it, the same thing with Muhammed (saws) and us.

Given that the adoration Muslims feel for Muhammed makes him a partner to God, contrary to one of the basic principles of Islam, it isn't much of a surprise that Muslims get a bit steamy when people take a poke at their esteemed "prophet".

again he isn't equal to god, no one said that, you probably love someone more than your self but are they equal to god?

I am not claiming this is the truth of the matter, however, this is exactly how it seems to me. I will readily admit that I could be wrong though.

yes there is a very high chance.

 

[Gharib]

Unfortunately like Gnostic has pointed out things are not so black and white.

they aren't

1400 years ago where would they have gone. Foreigners attracted rediculous taxes based on ther appearance. Most people had no choice but to stay and either keep quiet or accept Islam.

so now you are saying he forced them to convert? come on mate what are you saying stick to your claims, don't change things around.

Im an Aussie yes

g'day mate!!

 

[darkendless]

they aren't



so now you are saying he forced them to convert? come on mate what are you saying stick to your claims, don't change things around.



g'day mate!!

What i've been trying to say for a long time is Mohammed didn't and didn't need to do anything personally. He would come and convert a town. Those left unconverted would feel like outcasts. It happened to the mass conversions of Christians as well. In fact, in Norway, there were so many left unconverted there were civil wars. This was most likely unintentional by Mohammed but im convinced it would have happened numerous times.

Gday I havn't hear that word in a very long time

 

[Gharib]

What i've been trying to say for a long time is Mohammed didn't and didn't need to do anything personally. He would come and convert a town. Those left unconverted would feel like outcasts. It happened to the mass conversions of Christians as well. In fact, in Norway, there were so many left unconverted there were civil wars. This was most likely unintentional by Mohammed but im convinced it would have happened numerous times.

so again you are saying that islam was accepted by force right.

what does that last line (sentence) mean, i don't get it

 

[gnostic]

ok those hadiths are right. we need to love Muhammed (saws) more than our selves, so in a way if you speak about him you speakt to all the muslims, i hope thats not confusing.

we love him but not as much as Allah. we love Allah the most then we love Muhammed (saws) after Allah. in judgement day no one will be able to enter heaven without the prophet entering first. so why shouldn't we love him more than our self, when he is the key to eternla happiness?

It sounds like you (I mean Muslims in general) are treating like another god. That type of devotion and reverence is nothing more than idol worshipping.

Hero worshipping and idol worshipping are the same thing.

and yes Muhammed (saws) has put himself above all other beings because Allah elevated him above everything.
and god does not have any partners, where have i said that he does?

So he is higher than Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah and Jesus?

If that's not hero worshipping than what is it? Your Muhammad is a god; an idol.

 

[YmirGF]

good start

I try.

well just because the christians don't do anything that doesn't mean muslims should follow them, does it?

Traditionally speaking, no it does not, however it may well be time that Muslims, in general, began to sit up and pay attention.

if i drown my self will you?

Comments like this make me wonder if Muslims ever listen to their own arguments. Since when is "turning the other cheek" akin to commiting suicide? It is fascinating how you have taken something quite meaningful and turned it into something completely ludicrous. I am sure Allah is impressed.

ok those hadiths are right. we need to love Muhammed (saws) more than our selves, so in a way, if you speak about him you speak to all the muslims, i hope thats not confusing.

Don't worry about it, I do not get confused easily. It does strike me as being quite primitive, but perhaps it's just me.

we love him - but not as much as Allah. we love Allah the most - then we love Muhammed (saws) - after Allah. in judgement day no one will be able to enter heaven without the prophet entering first. so why shouldn't we love him more than our self, when he is the key to eternal happiness?

It sounds charming, but I would rather suspect that YOU are the key to your own eternal happiness and your dogma shields you from that which you already possess.

thats not horrific? you too love your parents, children, wife etc. is that horrific? and yes Muhammed has put himself above all other beings because Allah elevated him above everything.

That message coming out of the mouth of the recipient of the message isn't terribly persuasive.

and god does not have any partners, where have i said that he does? thats not a simple truth, thats a fact. but not the way you put it.

You didn't say it. It is my assertion based on the teachings of Islam. I still am a bit shocked that Muslims don't see the connection here. If indeed "Allah elevated him above everything" then clearly, Allah has made a partner of Muhammed. If "we love him more than our self, when he is the key to eternal happiness" then he is an intermediary between you and Allah. THAT makes him a partner TO Allah. Sorry Eselam, this isn't rocket science.

we do not worship Muhamed, we follow his message which leads us to Allah (and i did quicly point that out didn't i).

Hehe. Yes, but it simply doesn't add up. Muslims are world famous for emulating every aspect of Muhammed's behavior. I doubt that any other person, who has ever lived, has been copied to such an extent. At the very least, Muhammed is now a demi-god.

From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: demi·god
Pronunciation: &#712;de-m&#275;-&#716;gäd
Function: noun
Date: 1530

1 : a mythological being with more power than a mortal but less than a god
2 : a person so outstanding as to seem to approach the divine

Given the special status that Muhammed enjoys, it is almost laughable to continue to insist that he is NOT a partner to Allah. Even the role of being the Messenger of Allah makes Muhammed a partner to Allah.

that worship definition could also be said for those who take care of their car, their animals, veggies etc. they don't worship a car they just love it, the same thing with Muhammed and us.

So, you are in fact agreeing with me then, that in some terms, Muslims DO worship Muhammed. Thank you.

again he isn't equal to god, no one said that, you probably love someone more than your self but are they equal to god?

Hehe. If the truth be told, I love my friends and family far more than I love "god". The reason being is that this life is fleeting. It is because those I love will not be around me forever that I love them so. My relationship with "god" will continue forever - so I rather doubt he/she/it will feel the slightest bit offended. I rather expect that "god" will simply understand. If he/she/it were in my shoes, he/she it, would feel precisely the same way.

yes there is a very high chance.

But not as high as many may expect, my friend.

 

[Gharib]

It sounds like you (I mean Muslims in general) are treating like another god. That type of devotion and reverence is nothing more than idol worshipping.

i really dout that you understod my post.
i gave reasosn why we love him more than our self, go back and read it again.
and again Muhammed (saws) isn't a god he is a slave of god but is elevated above many of us or even all of us, Allah knows, he is the All Knower. ( out of the whole humans not just us at present)

Hero worshipping and idol worshipping are the same thing.

yeah so whats your point? car loving is also worshiping isn't it. husbands worship their wifes, dogs worship their masters or bones, people worship their car. people love cars very much. but they don't go saying things like please bestow your blessings and peace upon me. they worship it as in a "take good care " of it sort of way.

So he is higher than Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah and Jesus?

i think he is higher than some prophets but i do not know if all of them, and i do not know above who he is. Allah knows that. thats not a question that i can answer, i'm not god.

If that's not hero worshipping than what is it? Your Muhammad is a god; an idol.

you really havn't been paying attention, have you, we do not worship Muhammed (saws) he is no where near a god, is that clear?????
he's a human, is that so hard to understand.
and he's not just any human, he is a prophet, a messenger of Allah and it is Allah who has elevated him above us. i cannot question the decission of my master, i'm just a slave.

 

[gnostic]

car loving is also worshiping isn't it.

Yes.

husbands worship their wifes,

No.

dogs worship their masters or bones,

Now you're being silly. But that's ok. You're young, so you have every right to be silly.

people worship their car.

Same answer as the first one.

people love cars very much.

My. We have a broken record or something.

but they don't go saying things like please bestow your blessings and peace upon me. they worship it as in a "take good care " of it sort of way.

You are still idol-worshipping Muhammad.

i think he is higher than some prophets but i do not know if all of them, and i do not know above who he is. Allah knows that. thats not a question that i can answer, i'm not god.

Actually you don't know a damn thing who is above who.

You are only saying because you're worshipping Muhammad. You don't know how God feel.

In Genesis 5...I forgot what verse, God took Enoch to heaven, so that the patriarch never saw death. Did he do that Muhammad?

Elijah went to heaven on fiery chariot on team of fiery horses. Did Muhammad receive such a hot reception?

Whether you believe or not these myths is beside the point.

you really havn't been paying attention, have you, we do not worship Muhammed (saws) he is no where near a god, is that clear?????

And you don't get it. "Worship" has more than to do with excessive devotion and reverence. Hence idol-worshipping.

He is your hero, hence idol.

The Jews revered their prophets, like Abraham and Moses, but never to the extent that Muslims have with Muhammad, or that of Christians with their Jesus and the saints.

Islam and Christianity are nothing but idol-worshippers.

 

[Gharib]

Comments like this make me wonder if Muslims ever listen to their own arguments. Since when is "turning the other cheek" akin to commiting suicide? It is fascinating how you have taken something quite meaningful and turned it into something completely ludicrous. I am sure Allah is impressed.

why wats the problem with what i have said?
iv'e just given you an example. is that a crime?

Don't worry about it, I do not get confused easily. It does strike me as being quite primitive, but perhaps it's just me.

is this for me or what? i don't get it.

It sounds charming, but I would rather suspect that YOU are the key to your own eternal happiness and your dogma shields you from that which you already possess.

i am the key to My eternal happines because my actions will get me to earning heaven but it is prophet Muhammed (saws) who has to enter first. if he doesn't enter no one can, the angle/guard at the gate has orders from Allah to not open the dos unless Muhammed (saws) the last prophet enters first.

That message coming out of the mouth of the recipient of the message isn't terribly persuasive.

don't get this either, what's it mean. sorry but my english is bad, i usually don't get a lot of stuff because of they that they are worded.

You didn't say it. It is my assertion based on the teachings of Islam.

you are kidding for this right?????
no way do the teachins of islam say that there is anything equal to Allah.
do you know what this word means Subhanallah? it means this: above is Allah from what non believers make partners to him, ( i think thats right)

I still am a bit shocked that Muslims don't see the connection here. If indeed "Allah elevated him above everything" then clearly, Allah has made a partner of Muhammed.

no, still i don't hink you'll get it.
in a town if someone is a good person and everyone treats him good and suddenly they choose that man as the leader of the town, he too is elevated, right. but he is tha same as them. he isn't a president or is he?

If "we love him more than our self, when he is the key to eternal happiness" then he is an intermediary between you and Allah. THAT makes him a partner TO Allah. Sorry Eselam, this isn't rocket science.

no, wrong again, Subhanallah, nothing is equal to Allah, if anything was even as close to Allah as you say then Allah wouldn't be a god. just because Allah elevates his prophets that doesn't mean they are equal. no way.

Hehe. Yes, but it simply doesn't add up. Muslims are world famous for emulating every aspect of Muhammed's behavior. I doubt that any other person, who has ever lived, has been copied to such an extent. At the very least, Muhammed is now a demi-god.

Muhammed (saws) isn't a god he is a slave of god. why is that so hard to understand anyway. people like soccer players too, all famous soccer players have been copied in every aspect but they aren't semi-gods, are they?

From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: demi·god
Pronunciation: &#712;de-m&#275;-&#716;gäd
Function: noun
Date: 1530

1 : a mythological being with more power than a mortal but less than a god
2 : a person so outstanding as to seem to approach the divine

Given the special status that Muhammed enjoys, it is almost laughable to continue to insist that he is NOT a partner to Allah. Even the role of being the Messenger of Allah makes Muhammed a partner to Allah.

ok, if YOU send a child to call someone to YOU, would that child be equal to YOU??
i don't think so, nor do you, but why do you wright this stuff.

So, you are in fact agreeing with me then, that in some terms, Muslims DO worship Muhammed. Thank you.

no, i do not agree, where did you get that idea? i love a lot of people but i do not worship them, why is this so hard to understand?

Hehe. If the truth be told, I love my friends and family far more than I love "god".
The reason being is that this life is fleeting. It is because those I love will not be around me forever that I love them so. My relationship with "god" will continue forever - so I rather doubt he/she/it will feel the slightest bit offended. I rather expect that "god" will simply understand. If he/she/it were in my shoes, he/she it, would feel precisely the same way.

you see, big mistake. those friends and family have been created by Allah, so why not love that which has created that good more?
they wil die, everyone dies, and no one can help anyone. everything returns to Allah so why not love him more.
do you know how this is: you have 2 options,
1 chose this life which is just for a set time or chose the next which is forever,
2 chose Allah which is forever or chose those who are for a set amount of time.
ofcoure one would chose that which lasts longer. when you go to buy something you buy that which will last longer, the one with the longest warranty. would you pay 1000 dolllars for a tv that will break when you get it home, or would you pay that money for a tv that will last for 10 years?

But not as high as many may expect, my friend.

well others might agree with you but not me.

 

[Gharib]

Yes.

why is it yes why is the next one no (the one below) please explain/expand, give examples

No.

Same answer as the first one.

yeah, why is that?

You are still idol-worshipping Muhammad.

by looking at the amout of times you have used the tem idol i'm beginig to thik that you have no idea what an idol is. an idol is a stone, a figure that does not move created by man.

Actually you don't know a damn thing who is above who.

yeah, i thought i tolled you that.

You are only saying because you're worshipping Muhammad. You don't know how God feel.

loving someone isn't worshiping.

In Genesis 5...I forgot what verse, God took Enoch to heaven, so that the patriarch never saw death. Did he do that Muhammad?

before the prophet (saws) made his way to Medina, Allah raised him up to heaven and showed him everything, thats why the prophet (saws) never laughed in his life because he was begging Allah with tears in his eyes to forgive us all, he saw hell he saw heaven, he saw the other prophets ( they actually prayed together, with Muhammed (saws) leading the prayer), he met the angels of Allah, and it was prophet Musa (as)/Moses who asked Muhammed (saws) this " how many times did Allah ask you to pray?" Muhammed (saws) replied "50 times a day", Musa (as) said " go beg the All Mighty creator to make it less, because my people and i had it 50 time but it was very hard". Muhammed (saws) prayed to Allah to lower it down and he did, to 5 daily prayers.
does that answer your first question. everyone would agree that it does.

Elijah went to heaven on fiery chariot on team of fiery horses. Did Muhammad receive such a hot reception?

same again. when Jebraeel (as) came to guide/take Muhammed (saws) for the journy a horse also came so that Muhammed (saws) could ride it. it was the hores actually that wanted prophet Muhammed (saws) to ride it. (note: not a horse like in this world)

Whether you believe or not these myths is beside the point.

no actually they are right on target

And you don't get it. "Worship" has more than to do with excessive devotion and reverence. Hence idol-worshipping.

thats right you've just proved youself wrong. read your sentence again but carfully. this idol that you seem to mention a lot is wrong again. it make s you look bad though. it's the only word you are saying. wich has nothing to do with islam, it is way off topic. islam = no idols, how hard is that

He is your hero, hence idol.

oh, you want hero? Muhammed (saws0 is/was the bravest man on the surface of this planet. no other man is or will be as brave as him. the whole army would gather around him when they were in fear. they would listen to the prophet reciting the Kur'an and they would restore their self.
but again he is no idol nor a god nor is he worshiped by muslims.
i truely don't get this. i deny that Muhammed (saws) was/is a god and that we do not worship him and yet you want to prove me wrong. who knows more about islam, a muslim or a non muslim.
it's the same question as this: who knows more about the human body a doctor or an electrician.

The Jews revered their prophets, like Abraham and Moses, but never to the extent that Muslims have with Muhammad, or that of Christians with their Jesus and the saints.

well guess what? we don't go kissing tha hand of our sheiks like the christians/ catholic do with the pope. that is idol worshiping, not us with Muhammed (saws). it deffinately is idol worshiping. isn't it.

Islam and Christianity are nothing but idol-worshippers.

nope wrong again. the christian might be because they usually dirct themself to a figure of jesus, but muslims don't turn to any figure nor any picture, do you know which religion worships idols? hinduism, not islam

 

[Don Penguinoini]

nope wrong again. the christian might be because they usually dirct themself to a figure of jesus, but muslims don't turn to any figure nor any picture, do you know which religion worships idols? hinduism, not islam

And proud!

 

[Gharib]

And proud!

good for you. atleast someone agrees with me

 

[YmirGF]

why wats the problem with what i have said?
iv'e just given you an example. is that a crime?

No, it is not a crime, but it is a VERY POOR example and THAT is my point.

ok those hadiths are right. we need to love Muhammed (saws) more than our selves, so in a way, if you speak about him you speak to all the muslims, i hope thats not confusing.

Don't worry about it, I do not get confused easily. It does strike me as being quite primitive, but perhaps it's just me.

is this for me or what? i don't get it.

Put more simply, in context, "No, I do not find that confusing at all. I do find the notion behind the explanation to be quite simplistic (or simple-minded), though.

i am the key to My eternal happines because my actions will get me to earning heaven but it is prophet Muhammed (saws) who has to enter first. if he doesn't enter no one can, the angle/guard at the gate has orders from Allah to not open the door unless Muhammed (saws) the last prophet enters first.

That is a novel idea. Tell me, Eselam, Muhammed [pbuh] died 1400 years ago. Is he not already in Paradise? Does everyone who is already in Paradise get kicked out of Paradise on Judgment Day? :flirt:

That message coming out of the mouth of the recipient of the message isn't terribly persuasive.

don't get this either, what's it mean. sorry but my english is bad, i usually don't get a lot of stuff because of they that they are worded.

Fair enough. What I am saying, in very simple terms, is: God sends a message that Bob Smith is to be his representative on Earth. This message is spoken to others by Bob Smith himself, on behalf of God, who cannot speak to them directly. In effect, God needs Bob Smith to get his message out, otherwise no message COULD get out. There is a distinct relationship or PARTNERSHIP and the word 'partner', in this case, does not necessary mean that Bob Smith is equal to God.

A problem occurs here because we have no way to tell if Bob Smith is telling the truth and this is why Muslims are continually falling all over themselves to prove the pristine, perfect character of Muhammed. The point being that if there is any doubt about his character then it calls into question his supposed relationship with God.

Muslims overidentification with Muhammed, by loving him more than any other, save God alone, makes it somewhat impossible to discuss any aspect of the man without potentially causing Muslims to become deeply offended.

no, wrong again, Subhanallah, nothing is equal to Allah, if anything was even as close to Allah as you say then Allah wouldn't be a god. just because Allah elevates his prophets that doesn't mean they are equal. no way.

If you go over what I am saying you will understand that I am not saying Muhammed was equal to God. Since when are all Partnerships equal? You are making a supposition where none is specifically implied.

ok, if YOU send a child to call someone to YOU, would that child be equal to YOU? i don't think so, nor do you, but why do you wright this stuff.

Eselam, you are the one who misunderstands what I am saying. I am saying that not all partnerships are equal -- it is you who is focusing on partnerships being equal. That is NOT what I am saying AT ALL.

no, i do not agree, where did you get that idea? i love a lot of people but i do not worship them, why is this so hard to understand?

Hehe, but, to an extent, using one definition of the word, you do worship him. Frankly, you are limited by your own dogma from seeing the truth of what I am saying.

you have 2 options:

1 chose this life which is just for a set time or chose the next which is forever,
2 chose Allah which is forever or chose those who are for a set amount of time.

of course one would chose that which lasts longer.

I have already answered this question in rather clear terms.

Besides, the title of this thread IS "Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in the Eyes of Non-Muslims". I guess I am just here to let you understand how some of us think as the title is plural (ie. non-Muslims). Though it is true that many believe the sanitised accounts of the life of Muhammed, there are many who are not quite so easily impressed. Quite franky, the more I learn about Islam, the less impressed I become.

 

[gnostic]

by looking at the amout of times you have used the tem idol i'm beginig to thik that you have no idea what an idol is. an idol is a stone, a figure that does not move created by man.

I see that you don't know much about idol. It is more than just wood or stone or metal. A person is object as well, especially ancient or historical figure.

You have such a narrow view on idols that you completely ignored all others.

You have mentioned car...several times already.

So consider your Qur'an, or any other religious scriptures. The amount of devotion you have for such books, is considered idolatary too.

Do you not place your scriptures above yourself, family or friends?

If you do, thence your Qur'an is a idol.

And consider this. This one is really important. So I hope you understand why I think Muslims worshipped Muhammad.

Do or do you not say over and over again:

"Allah is the one god, and Muhammad is his prophet."

Or something like that, but perhaps in Arabic, or whatever. It's like a motto and warcry for all Muslims.

How many times do you say that (or something like that)?

Every single day? More? Every week?

Well, if you do, then it is like praying to Muhammad as well as to your Allah. Because this said, like a talisman, your prophet have become god-like especially if you say with your god. Hence, you and others like you, have become idol-worshipper, and your god is as much as Muhammad, as it is with your god.

Now did ever use this motto in your prayer?

If so, then need I say more?

Do you understand what I am saying?

 

[Gharib]

No, it is not a crime, but it is a VERY POOR example and THAT is my point.

yes i agree

That is a novel idea. Tell me, Eselam, Muhammed [pbuh] died 1400 years ago. Is he not already in Paradise? Does everyone who is already in Paradise get kicked out of Paradise on Judgment Day? :flirt:

actually i personally do not have that knowledge, haven't studied that much. but as far as i know (my perspective) no prophet is in heaven now. they may be on the 6'th universe but not heaven itself. before everyone is awakened for the day of judgement, they will all be returned to this earth and in their graves (everyone) and Allah will shout "who is your creator? I am" then everyone will be awakened. and so it begins.
in short terms, yes everyone will be kicked out and back to this world.

Fair enough. What I am saying, in very simple terms, is: God sends a message that Bob Smith is to be his representative on Earth.

i understand your point but, god hasn't sent a representative on this earth, he has sent a messenger. a representative and a messenger are 2 diferent things, am i right?

This message is spoken to others by Bob Smith himself, on behalf of God, who cannot speak to them directly. In effect,

god can speak to anyone he wishes just as he has to the prophets. ( through Jebraeel (as) though not directly. he only has spoken to Ibraheem (as) with his own voice i think and he had no idea from which direction it was coming from, it came from all sides)

God needs Bob Smith to get his message out, otherwise no message COULD get out. There is a distinct relationship or PARTNERSHIP and the word 'partner', in this case, does not necessary mean that Bob Smith is equal to God.

god, first of all doesn't need anyone, if he did need someone then he isn't a god, how can someone be a god if they need help from someone else?
he isn't equal to god, thats right, but if Muhammed (saws) wanted us to worsip him then he could have just said it. why go through all this trouble.
if i send someone to you and tolled him to say to you "thank eselam for......??? then you would thank me and not my messenger, right.

A problem occurs here because we have no way to tell if Bob Smith is telling the truth and this is why Muslims are continually falling all over themselves to prove the pristine, perfect character of Muhammed. The point being that if there is any doubt about his character then it calls into question his supposed relationship with God.

ok if Muhammed (saws) was lying (made the whole thing up) then why wouldn't he say worship me but instead he said worship Allah? there would have been people dumb enough at that time to worship him because he always tolled the truth, so what reason would they have for not believing him now.

Muslims overidentification with Muhammed, by loving him more than any other, save God alone, makes it somewhat impossible to discuss any aspect of the man without potentially causing Muslims to become deeply offended.

look, first of all i'm not offended by you when you say that we worship Muhammed (saws), thats how you see it. but who would tell the story of Jesus (as) better, a buddhist or a christian?

If you go over what I am saying you will understand that I am not saying Muhammed was equal to God. Since when are all Partnerships equal? You are making a supposition where none is specifically implied.

yes i understand, if by loving Muhammed (saws) more than anything is like worshiping him to you (thats how you see it) then you could say that. but why use the term worship? worship has a totally different meaning from love

Eselam, you are the one who misunderstands what I am saying. I am saying that not all partnerships are equal -- it is you who is focusing on partnerships being equal. That is NOT what I am saying AT ALL.

my bad i guess, sorry.

Besides, the title of this thread IS "Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in the Eyes of Non-Muslims". I guess I am just here to let you understand how some of us think as the title is plural (ie. non-Muslims). Though it is true that many believe the sanitised accounts of the life of Muhammed, there are many who are not quite so easily impressed. Quite franky, the more I learn about Islam, the less impressed I become.

i'm sorry to hear that my friend.

by the way does the title of the thread mean that i cannot oppose you guys or what, i don't get it?