Muhammad The Greatest: A comparative study

[kai]

Hello all. This is my first post on this site.

In my view the debate has entirely disregarded an important point. Interpretation of any person's actions and statements need to be done with regard to the prevailing culture and ethics of his time. Muhammad(pbuh) lived in a semi-civilized nomadic society where violence was a way of life. Marriage had a political and social importance. Marrying young girls was not taboo. Waging war was a common.
I agree but islam cannot change its the final revelation
No modern Islamic institution condones pedophilia, or supports making war on those it percieves as non-Muslims. Saudi Arabia is one of the staunch allies of the USA. If making war was Muhammad's message then surely Saudi Arabia, a most radical country would never partner with the US.The Saudis do whats best for Saudis and thats why some Muslims call them traitors Sure there are some groups who are bad and violent. But such groups exist in all religions. Perhaps they are more prevalent in Islam in contemporary times, but that is not due to some fundamental flaw in the doctrine. In history, there are multiple occasions when some socio-political group was afflicted with the disease of violence. It comes and goes. The theory that Islam was always violent is not correct. In India, which has the second largest population of Muslims, Islam spread through Sufi mystics and their message of love of God.

Where did you get that idea

The Catholic Church itself recognizes Islam as a legitimate religion. (Nostra Aetate). I am all for disregarding the established opinion and drawing independent conclusions about a person but they must be drawn after carefully getting a feel of the society and culture he existed in. To randomly pick up some quotations and incidents and to draw interpretations from these is not correct. Mahatma Gandhi was against the formation of Israel and made comments against africans which would be termed derogatory today. Does that make Gandhi an anti-semite racist?

About drinking a camel's urine, let me share some factual information which might enable us to gauge the still existing gap in mentality of people in the world today. In India, where I am right now, there are shops which sell cows urine, and products made with cow-urine. In fact, it is a well known fact that Morarji Desai, a former PM of ours, used to drink cow-urine openly, and claimed that it cured him of piles. I am not claiming that cow-urine is good for health but this should give an idea of the difference in cultures.
But that has no bearing on the devine truth of the benefits of Camels urine?
Thanks and good day to all.

Muslim conquest in the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Gharib]

Capital punishment for murder isn't an issue for me

nor is the shari law an issue for all the muslims who embrace it.

as long as its proven beyond all possible doubt that the accused did commit the crime.

well that wich you consider crime is only aprt of what Allah considers crime. it is not what we consider to be right or wrong but instead god gets to decide, we have submited to its' will, you haven't so your views are respected as if a man enforced them but the laws of Allah are not so very easy to accept, the reason being we think we know better than god, Allah even mentiones it in the quran.

The problem i have is stoning people for adultery,

and the problem i have is puting jooveniles to death because they stole money to stay alive. you see your views and mine do not match at the moment.

lashing,cutting off hands and feet

i bet 100% that a 17 year old american kid would rather have his hand cut off than to have his life taken away. don't you think so?

,this is barbaric and wrong and occurs because people are trying to act as Muhammed did 1400 years ago and its madness.

the word barbaric is mentioned again. well ok lets put it this way, it is mostly the arab islamic countries that have these punishments the reason being, it is their culture (just an example) so why does the so called most advanced nation in the world commit such barbaric crimes as these old fashioned and left behind, non advanced islamic countries. this is were i do not get you guys, islam should punish according to you guys and just according to whom does america punish? according to me? no. but according to itself, so why don't i have the same freedom as america?

does anyone on RF live their life according to what i say? (anyone) the answer is no. most things that you guys think are ok, are not according to the islamic world, but none of you seem to care. so now were does this leave us?

The other problem i have is with Apostacy and freedom of speech,Kareem Soliman AKA Amer is in prison in Egypt for criticising Islam and the President Mubarak of Egypt,this is IMO wrong and a part of Islam that is unacceptable

i'm not a world news journalist, i can't comment on that.

 

[Gharib]

Untrue. It has nothing to do with the 'west's' way.

do you have any proof to support this statement?

It has to do with having an open mind and being able to judge what is happening around you.

so you comming to a conclusion that islam is a bad religion was by having an open mind in what the media has to say right? and just how exactly did you do the judging part, can i have some pointers?

And.. you agree with Eselam that Muslims are not allowed to 'think' for themselves...

well if we were to think for our selves then just how would we know what the earth looked like from outer space? not all humans are as fortunate as you to go to the moon, planet mars and the planet of the apes.

and humans are slaves to their dogs.??

well you can ignore that if you do not have a dog. do you?

That means that Muslims are slaves to their holy book

no you got this wrong. we are slaves to Allah.

- and their minds are shut closed.

we live life according to our master to whom we have surrendered our free will. didn't you already know about this. it shouldn't be a surprise, should it?

That means none of you will be able to look at it with any objectivity - none of you are able to think for yourselves.

well if we were to do that, then we would end up picking our dogs manure from corner to corner and telling them wich tree should be watered. thank Allah for the brain wash. Elhamdulilah for having me as his searvent. i am pleased with Allah as my master.

 

[A-ManESL]

kai:Where did you get that idea

Kai, your comment is unclear to me. Perhaps you claim that Muslim conquest in India led to mass conversions. This is not true, and in fact the wp article you cited doesn't say it. In fact the Islam in India article on wp has a section on "Spread of Sufi Islam". Also being an Indian Muslim I can tell you that the influence of sufi islam predates deobandi, barelvi schools of Islam in India from which you probably think that indian muslims derive their theology. I can't cite you a reliable book at the moment. A quick search gave me an article on bbc about sufism in pakistan but I can't post links until after 15 posts according to forum rules. If you want to read it search for " Can Sufi Islam counter Taleban".

Around 50% of Muslims in India are those who ancestors were Indians and converted, and around 50% were those who came to india as part of the continuous momentum in Muslim lands from 12th-15th century.

My apologies if I have misinterpreted your meaning.

Also my point on talking about cows urine was to illustrate how the same thing might mean holy for some people and disgusting for the other. That is because of a lack of breadth of view. I have made absolutely no comment on the use of camel's urine and don't intend to make one, for I consider any scientific interpretation of religious beliefs incorrect .

 

[Judgment]

eselam: do you have any proof to support this statement?

The proof is in my open mind. I am able to see good and bad everywhere - I do not believe the West is perfect - And I do not believe that Islam is without merits.

eselam: so you comming to a conclusion that islam is a bad religion was by having an open mind in what the media has to say right? and just how exactly did you do the judging part, can i have some pointers?

Not Correct. My conclusions come from reading the Koran and Hadith. There is good with the bad - that is the problem. As with the OT - the message is not clear. That is why a good number of your Brothers and Sisters choose a life of terror.

You are judging me now - no pointers are needed.

eselam: well if we were to think for our selves then just how would we know what the earth looked like from outer space? not all humans are as fortunate as you to go to the moon, planet mars and the planet of the apes.

The best way to truly know how the Earth looks from Outer space is to view photos of actual pictures of it. Words can never do it justice.

eselam: well you can ignore that if you do not have a dog. do you?

I had one as a child. A loving pet. What is your point ? Do you hate dogs?

eselam: no you got this wrong. we are slaves to Allah.

Is not the Quran the words of Allah?

eselam: we live life according to our master to whom we have surrendered our free will. didn't you already know about this. it shouldn't be a surprise, should it?

I already knew - I wanted others to know that may not have.

eselam: well if we were to do that, then we would end up picking our dogs manure from corner to corner and telling them wich tree should be watered. thank Allah for the brain wash. Elhamdulilah for having me as his searvent. i am pleased with Allah as my master.

You are happy that you do not think for yourself. - this is terrifying on many levels. And you are happy that you do not have to pick up after a dog because of this. you keep bringing up dogs..... I understand that Islam considers them unclean... and that Mohammed even said that black dogs should be killed (dumb) - are you saying that Islam 'Hates' all dogs.

Talking about the West - In the West we Love Dogs - They are our companions and friends and we do not take kindly to our friends being murdered. As a point of reference - if Muslims move to Western societies they will have to bend to our rules of logic - not the other way around.

 

[kai]

kai:Where did you get that idea

Kai, your comment is unclear to me. Perhaps you claim that Muslim conquest in India led to mass conversions. This is not true, and in fact the wp article you cited doesn't say it. In fact the Islam in India article on wp has a section on "Spread of Sufi Islam". Also being an Indian Muslim I can tell you that the influence of sufi islam predates deobandi, barelvi schools of Islam in India from which you probably think that indian muslims derive their theology. I can't cite you a reliable book at the moment. A quick search gave me an article on bbc about sufism in pakistan but I can't post links until after 15 posts according to forum rules. If you want to read it search for " Can Sufi Islam counter Taleban".

Around 50% of Muslims in India are those who ancestors were Indians and converted, and around 50% were those who came to india as part of the continuous momentum in Muslim lands from 12th-15th century.

My apologies if I have misinterpreted your meaning.

Also my point on talking about cows urine was to illustrate how the same thing might mean holy for some people and disgusting for the other. That is because of a lack of breadth of view. I have made absolutely no comment on the use of camel's urine and don't intend to make one, for I consider any scientific interpretation of religious beliefs incorrect .

heres what i meant:

Will Durant, the famous historian summed it up like this:
"The Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex of order and freedom, culture and peace, can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within."

Islamic conquest of India bloodiest in the history - Reader comments at DanielPipes.org


and the argument went along the lines that the Quran says that Camels urine has medicinal properties and the Quran is infallible, someone posted that it had no medicinal properties and was in fact harmful ---ergo the Quran is wrong. (not my argument by the way)

 

[Kilgore Trout]

uneducated people do see it that way. can't blame you for it.

Ah, of course, when one has no argument, attack the person you disagree with. Even more pathetic in this case, since I am, in fact, more educated than most, so your petty insult is meaningless as well.

Not unexpected, of course.

 

[Imagist]

Response: I'm reading a statement. Where's the proof?

Your argument on this subject so far has amounted to:

1. I am right.
2. If a scholar doesn't agree with me, (s)he isn't actually a scholar.
3. The evidence you cite is written by scholars who don't agree with me.
4. Therefore, those scholars aren't actually scholars.
5. Therefore, I feel free to disregard your evidence.

If you insist on restating this inane point ignoring my criticism of it, I will continue to restate my criticism of it.

 

[Imagist]

Please provide evidence that Allah said so. In fact, please provide evidence that Allah said ANYTHING. In this evidence, it would be pointless for you to reference any text or external links, since you don't believe that these are legitimate sources.

Response: That proof is the qur'an. The qur'an is the word of Allah and in the qur'an we are told that it will be protected. (Ch.15:9) Also, we are told to obey the Messenger (Muhammad). Therefore the sunnah also had to be protected as well. In ch.5:3 we are told that the religion was perfected and in ch.24:55 we are told that Allah make Successors from among the religion. Lastly, in 9:33 we are told that true religion will prevail over all religions. Therefore the collection of Tabari and all the other weak and unauthentic hadiths can not be true because if they were they would have been acknowledged and would have prevailed over the muslim world as so but it has not.

The Quran is an ancient text which is in no way more authoritative than any other ancient text, UNLESS you have evidence that the other ancient texts are unreliable.

By admitting the Quran has evidence, you admit that the other texts have evidence.

 

[Imagist]

isn't the term 'leethal injection' barbaric too, i just can't figure it out why do most non muslims wish to change islam when they need to change themselvs first. i mean look at these so called "advanced" western contries, they wish to tell the muslims this is how you should live your lives because it is the best way and yet they are the barbarians of the 21'st century.

I am in no way a supported of "leethal injection", so I don't need to change myself on this point. By your logic, this frees me to criticize Islam.

 

[Imagist]

And while many Muslims would disagree with me, I think that as we have evolved as humans, our idea of "perfect" and "pure" has also changed so, what lessons you take from the traditions or the Qur'an are up to you. In order to fulfill your life and feel...at peace with your religion, you must analyze it and apply it to yourself.

If you can pick and choose which lessons to take, then this proves you already have a conscience. So why do you need the traditions or Quran in the first place?

 

[Imagist]

Response: How else did you learn about the honor killings and suicide bombers and all the other activities that goes on in muslim countries? It's not from the qur'an or sunnah. It's from the western media. Compare that to how many times they show anything good about islam in comparison. A clear conspiracy.

Do you believe that honor killings and suicide bombings occur? If so, does talking about these events mean you're conspiring against Islam?

I frequently watch Al-Jazeera online. Many (most?) of the reporters for Al-Jazeera are muslims. They also report honor killings and suicide bombings. Does this mean that they are conspiring against Islam?

Did you ever consider that it might not be a conspiracy, but that instead, Islam and its practitioners aren't perfect?

 

[Fatihah]

Do you believe that honor killings and suicide bombings occur? If so, does talking about these events mean you're conspiring against Islam?

I frequently watch Al-Jazeera online. Many (most?) of the reporters for Al-Jazeera are muslims. They also report honor killings and suicide bombings. Does this mean that they are conspiring against Islam?

Response: Al-Jazeera tv may talk about these things in islam but it also talks about the beauty of islam just as much. The western media doesn't. That's the difference.

Did you ever consider that it might not be a conspiracy, but that instead, Islam and its practitioners aren't perfect?

Response: Not when it's obvious that it's not the case. I was born and raised in America and still reside in America. So I know what's depicted in the media and yet when I go to the masjid and watch how the muslims take care of each other, the charity displayed to the community around them, the fact that I practically find myself in situations where people (especially women) wish for me to be their guardian and learn the religion of islam on a regular basis, and yet none of these things are in the media makes it very clear the conspiracies on islam.

 

[A-ManESL]

To Kai: I don't claim that islamic conquest of india was not bloody. I do claim that the spread of Islam in India was through Sufi's message of love. That's why there are so many Muslims in India. Conquest didn't convert people, Sufis did. (in fact until a king called Akbar came along, the ruling elite in India was extremely disconnected from the common people, and that's the main reason why muslim rulers upto that point had never acquired stability in their rules). This kind of a thing never happened in Spain, and the result is clear.

In fact according to wikipedia (see tariqah) a sizeable population in central Asia, Southern Russia and Indonesia becam Muslim solely due to the missionary work of Sufi tarqas.

In my view, (although I am against any conversion) for sustainable conversion to a religion, violence almost always never works.

 

[England my lionheart]

England, i cannot comment on a hadith, it is not my place to say so. you see the problem is that you cannot bring up just one hadith and say is this right or is it wrong. the problem being is that i doubt any muslims on RF know even 100 hadiths word to word relating to this particular one. so the problem that arises here is that no one can judge the authenticity of this hadith if we don't know about other hadiths that speak of similar scenarios. you see we judge a hadith by other hadiths. if i have never read hadiths concerning this matter, then i will not know if it is right or wrong. and i did say to you that i have never read much hadiths relating to this one. look if you really are interested in getting an answer the best place to seek that answer is to ask a scholar who has studied the hadith and the sunnah. i can have a go at it, but it is not my place. if i say that it is false then maybe someone will actually beleive me and i will have to answer for that in judgment day if i am wrong, the same if i said it was a true hadith. so i will not comment on any hadiths because i am not a scholar, it is not my responsibility to tell people this is right and that is wrong if i my self do not know which is wrong and which is right. i need to collect knowledge not give it away.

i hope this clears things why i cannot coment on any hadiths, i have in some others, but came to realise that it is not my place to do so and will remember that in the future.

Well thanks for your honesty Eselam,the Hadith is Bukhari btw and there are others that contain stoning and worse.
The point is not that Muhammed had people stoned,the point is people are stoned now because 600 million Muslims want to live like he did then.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: Muhammad has never stoned anyone. However, he has ordered for people to be stoned.

The stoning during the time of Muhammad was done from the taurat. The taurat is the revelation that was given to Moses. The prophet was allowed to continue to use the punishment from the taurat until the revelation of the qur'an specifically said that the punishment is now 100 lashes.

Correct he had people stoned which at the time was'nt a big deal but now it is and it must stop along with the lashes

 

[Imagist]

Response: Not when it's obvious that it's not the case. I was born and raised in America and still reside in America. So I know what's depicted in the media and yet when I go to the masjid and watch how the muslims take care of each other, the charity displayed to the community around them, the fact that I practically find myself in situations where people (especially women) wish for me to be their guardian and learn the religion of islam on a regular basis, and yet none of these things are in the media makes it very clear the conspiracies on islam.

The media doesn't report positive things, generally. A man could go years working at homeless mothers and giving 20% of his income to help starving children in Africa and never make the news a single time. If after all those years, the same man goes out and kills a police officer, that man will be in the news for weeks following the murder.

Nobody would consider this an attack on the man. His good deeds simply weren't news, while his bad deed was. Likewise, the good deeds of Muslims aren't news, while the bad deeds of Muslims are.

This doesn't just apply to Islam. How many positive stories do you hear about the Catholic church? Most of the stories I see are about the pope saying stupid things, or priests abusing children. I grew up in a highly Catholic area, and I can tell you with great certainty that most Catholics are decent people. Would you view this is an attack on Catholicism?

In any case, the good actions of Muslims don't make up for the bad actions of Muhammed, just as the good actions of Catholics don't make up for the stupid things the pope says, or the abuse of children by priests. And even if there were some conspiracy to attack Islam, that wouldn't mean that Muhammed was innocent.

 

[England my lionheart]

nor is the shari law an issue for all the muslims who embrace it.



well that wich you consider crime is only aprt of what Allah considers crime. it is not what we consider to be right or wrong but instead god gets to decide, we have submited to its' will, you haven't so your views are respected as if a man enforced them but the laws of Allah are not so very easy to accept, the reason being we think we know better than god, Allah even mentiones it in the quran.



and the problem i have is puting jooveniles to death because they stole money to stay alive. you see your views and mine do not match at the moment.



i bet 100% that a 17 year old american kid would rather have his hand cut off than to have his life taken away. don't you think so?



the word barbaric is mentioned again. well ok lets put it this way, it is mostly the arab islamic countries that have these punishments the reason being, it is their culture (just an example) so why does the so called most advanced nation in the world commit such barbaric crimes as these old fashioned and left behind, non advanced islamic countries. this is were i do not get you guys, islam should punish according to you guys and just according to whom does america punish? according to me? no. but according to itself, so why don't i have the same freedom as america?

does anyone on RF live their life according to what i say? (anyone) the answer is no. most things that you guys think are ok, are not according to the islamic world, but none of you seem to care. so now were does this leave us?



i'm not a world news journalist, i can't comment on that.

The Western countries are in no way perfect and in my country there are no Juveniles or Adults being executed ,not even for Murder.
As for Kareem Soliman AKA Amer,he was sentenced to 4 years imprisonment for criticising Islam 3 years and President Mubbarat 1 year,he is in peril of his life and his parents have disowened him and all from a Blog on the internet.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: Right. If it's not the west way, it's not the best way according to the west.

Btw, I'm a he. Perhaps I should add a gender sign to my name as well.

I ask you this,if the decadent West is so bad why are so many people ,including many Muslims queing to come here and like you stay.
I wonder how many people emigrate from Western Democracies to Iran,Saudi,Pakistan etc,i would hazard a guess of 0

 

[Fatihah]

Correct he had people stoned which at the time was'nt a big deal but now it is and it must stop along with the lashes

Response: If that's how you feel then you're entitled to your opinion but rules of a nation do not depend solely on the feelings of England my lionheart.