Muhammad The Greatest: A comparative study

[Gharib]

Eselam i did'nt take any offence so its ok,what i said was in jest ,it was a double edged sword because Fatihah agrees with stoning or lashes and not because he gives them to his wife.

ok i understand, but there are americans who agree to leethal injection and electrocution. so why is it wrong for a muslim to accept capital punishments and ok for non muslims? this is where i cannot understand you or anyone else.

 

[Gharib]

Eselam i did'nt take any offence so its ok,what i said was in jest ,it was a double edged sword because Fatihah agrees with stoning or lashes and not because he gives them to his wife.

i think it's a she.

 

[kai]

no problem at all. thats cos i don't get it though

what i mean is, that no amount of rules or regulations can make you a good person , Its the choices we all make in life that make us what we are.

 

[kai]

ok i understand, but there are americans who agree to leethal injection and electrocution. so why is it wrong for a muslim to accept capital punishments and ok for non muslims? this is where i cannot understand you or anyone else.

yes there are but there are also western countries that do not have the death penalty. and Americans can be a puzzle to us too.

 

[Gharib]

what i mean is, that no amount of rules or regulations can make you a good person , Its the choices we all make in life that make us what we are.

yes now i get it. thanks for the explanation.

i'll ask you something though, will you always remember that, cos every time a islamic follower does something wrong he is a muslim criminal, so i just want you to remember that he is not what he seems to be due to religious traditions, but instead because he/she is a human. you said it your self, right? no matter how many rules are in place, crimes will be commited.

 

[Gharib]

yes there are but there are also western countries that do not have the death penalty. and Americans can be a puzzle to us too.

actually i think that they are immitating islam. i mean why else do it. you see you guys are here telling muslims this is wrong that is right and yet you are immitating us.

 

[England my lionheart]

OK i will show this and it isn't a criticism of Muhammed but it is a criticism of a large portion of Muslims today.

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 860:

Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani:
A bedouin came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." His opponent got up and said, "He is right. Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." The bedouin said, "My son was a laborer working for this man, and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that my son should be stoned to death; so, in lieu of that, I paid a ransom of one hundred sheep and a slave girl to save my son. Then I asked the learned scholars who said, "Your son has to be lashed one-hundred lashes and has to be exiled for one year." The Prophet said, "No doubt I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws. The slave-girl and the sheep are to go back to you, and your son will get a hundred lashes and one year exile." He then addressed somebody, "O Unais! go to the wife of this (man) and stone her to death" So, Unais went and stoned her to death.

In this Hadith it is clear what the problem is,currently Pakistan,Iran,Taleban,Saudi etc all carry out stoning as punishment,these people are trying to emulate Muhammed in every way and that is why we have this ugly crime against Humanity now and it must stop.
​

 

[kai]

yes now i get it. thanks for the explanation.

i'll ask you something though, will you always remember that, cos every time a islamic follower does something wrong he is a muslim criminal, so i just want you to remember that he is not what he seems to be due to religious traditions, but instead because he/she is a human. you said it your self, right? no matter how many rules are in place, crimes will be commited.

I will remember esalam ,but if he says he did it for Islamic reasons then i must take his word for it.
That he beleives he did it for islamic ideas even if they are not the same Islamic ideas as yours.

a criminal is a criminal ,even if he is a Muslim or a christian or a ragamuffin

 

[England my lionheart]

actually i think that they are immitating islam. i mean why else do it. you see you guys are here telling muslims this is wrong that is right and yet you are immitating us.

Capital punishment for murder isn't an issue for me as long as its proven beyond all possible doubt that the accused did commit the crime.
The problem i have is stoning people for adultery,lashing,cutting off hands and feet,this is barbaric and wrong and occurs because people are trying to act as Muhammed did 1400 years ago and its madness.
The other problem i have is with Apostacy and freedom of speech,Kareem Soliman AKA Amer is in prison in Egypt for criticising Islam and the President Mubarak of Egypt,this is IMO wrong and a part of Islam that is unacceptable

 

[Fatihah]

got some kind of factual presentation for that?

Response: How else did you learn about the honor killings and suicide bombers and all the other activities that goes on in muslim countries? It's not from the qur'an or sunnah. It's from the western media. Compare that to how many times they show anything good about islam in comparison. A clear conspiracy.

 

[Judgment]

and which direction is exactly "forward" to you , the one that goes backwards?

Forward means no longer believing that the harsh punishments for 'perceived' crimes - that were commanded by a supposedly loving, caring God are not - and never were needed.

Islam does not move forward and it does not move backwards. It stays as is. Punishments that were wrong to begin with will never go away. Because of that - homosexuals, and many others, must always live in fear and be ready to duck the coming stones.

 

[Judgment]

isn't the term 'leethal injection' barbaric too, i just can't figure it out why do most non muslims wish to change islam when they need to change themselvs first. i mean look at these so called "advanced" western contries, they wish to tell the muslims this is how you should live your lives because it is the best way and yet they are the barbarians of the 21'st century.

Your comparison is nonsensical. I am speaking of punishments commanded by a supposedly loving God. You are speaking of death sentences ordered by the courts.

The punishment for murder is one thing. Islam kills for much more mundane reasons.

 

[Fatihah]

I think that the intention of the ahadith was a good one- to set an example for humans to follow. It is my understanding through my (limited) studies of the Qur'an and Islam that to many Muslims, Muhammad is considered to be the perfect human. A pure human.

And while many Muslims would disagree with me, I think that as we have evolved as humans, our idea of "perfect" and "pure" has also changed so, what lessons you take from the traditions or the Qur'an are up to you. In order to fulfill your life and feel...at peace with your religion, you must analyze it and apply it to yourself.

So it is up to each individual to decide whether the example set by Muhammad was more positive or negative or somewhere in between and what that means for his/her own life as a Muslim.

Response: Naturally, one person's perception may not be the same as the next person but the issue is what's best for society. So in islam, a person is to put away what they feel is "perfect" and "pure" because Allah is the creator and he knows best. By doing so, we all learn an important element in life called "sacrifice". Yes it's quite natural for two people to disagree, but if you love that person, you should be able to sacrifice your own logic and be able to follow the other person and vice versa if the logic is not harmful. There are many times when I disagree with someone but I follow them anyway because following their way brings no harm to me and following the qur'an and sunnah isn't harmful to anyone.

 

[Fatihah]

sister, how many animal species do you find ashamed of such acts? well the camel only, thats one. the people who are right are always low in numbers, just compare the camel to the rest of the animals.

Response: From my understanding, a pig will let you sleep with its mate. In every other animal society, either the animals are monogamist or the male is polygamist. (The lion pride) In the west, a pig is high on the food chain and there is a saying that you are what you eat.

well muslims aren't allowed to "think" for themseves, so ofcourse we won't become like that, look at the non muslims they "think" for them selves. so everyone is right, there is no wrong and there is no right in a western society.
once upon a time dogs were slaves know dogs are the masters and humans are the slaves. it all has to do with "evolution" and free thinking.

Response: Right. If it's not the west way, it's not the best way according to the west.

Btw, I'm a he. Perhaps I should add a gender sign to my name as well.

 

[A-ManESL]

Hello all. This is my first post on this site.

In my view the debate has entirely disregarded an important point. Interpretation of any person's actions and statements need to be done with regard to the prevailing culture and ethics of his time. Muhammad(pbuh) lived in a semi-civilized nomadic society where violence was a way of life. Marriage had a political and social importance. Marrying young girls was not taboo. Waging war was a common.

No modern Islamic institution condones pedophilia, or supports making war on those it percieves as non-Muslims. Saudi Arabia is one of the staunch allies of the USA. If making war was Muhammad's message then surely Saudi Arabia, a most radical country would never partner with the US. Sure there are some groups who are bad and violent. But such groups exist in all religions. Perhaps they are more prevalent in Islam in contemporary times, but that is not due to some fundamental flaw in the doctrine. In history, there are multiple occasions when some socio-political group was afflicted with the disease of violence. It comes and goes. The theory that Islam was always violent is not correct. In India, which has the second largest population of Muslims, Islam spread through Sufi mystics and their message of love of God.

The Catholic Church itself recognizes Islam as a legitimate religion. (Nostra Aetate). I am all for disregarding the established opinion and drawing independent conclusions about a person but they must be drawn after carefully getting a feel of the society and culture he existed in. To randomly pick up some quotations and incidents and to draw interpretations from these is not correct. Mahatma Gandhi was against the formation of Israel and made comments against africans which would be termed derogatory today. Does that make Gandhi an anti-semite racist?

About drinking a camel's urine, let me share some factual information which might enable us to gauge the still existing gap in mentality of people in the world today. In India, where I am right now, there are shops which sell cows urine, and products made with cow-urine. In fact, it is a well known fact that Morarji Desai, a former PM of ours, used to drink cow-urine openly, and claimed that it cured him of piles. I am not claiming that cow-urine is good for health but this should give an idea of the difference in cultures.

Thanks and good day to all.

 

[Gharib]

OK i will show this and it isn't a criticism of Muhammed but it is a criticism of a large portion of Muslims today.

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 860:

Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani:
A bedouin came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." His opponent got up and said, "He is right. Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." The bedouin said, "My son was a laborer working for this man, and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that my son should be stoned to death; so, in lieu of that, I paid a ransom of one hundred sheep and a slave girl to save my son. Then I asked the learned scholars who said, "Your son has to be lashed one-hundred lashes and has to be exiled for one year." The Prophet said, "No doubt I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws. The slave-girl and the sheep are to go back to you, and your son will get a hundred lashes and one year exile." He then addressed somebody, "O Unais! go to the wife of this (man) and stone her to death" So, Unais went and stoned her to death.

In this Hadith it is clear what the problem is,currently Pakistan,Iran,Taleban,Saudi etc all carry out stoning as punishment,these people are trying to emulate Muhammed in every way and that is why we have this ugly crime against Humanity now and it must stop.
​

England, i cannot comment on a hadith, it is not my place to say so. you see the problem is that you cannot bring up just one hadith and say is this right or is it wrong. the problem being is that i doubt any muslims on RF know even 100 hadiths word to word relating to this particular one. so the problem that arises here is that no one can judge the authenticity of this hadith if we don't know about other hadiths that speak of similar scenarios. you see we judge a hadith by other hadiths. if i have never read hadiths concerning this matter, then i will not know if it is right or wrong. and i did say to you that i have never read much hadiths relating to this one. look if you really are interested in getting an answer the best place to seek that answer is to ask a scholar who has studied the hadith and the sunnah. i can have a go at it, but it is not my place. if i say that it is false then maybe someone will actually beleive me and i will have to answer for that in judgment day if i am wrong, the same if i said it was a true hadith. so i will not comment on any hadiths because i am not a scholar, it is not my responsibility to tell people this is right and that is wrong if i my self do not know which is wrong and which is right. i need to collect knowledge not give it away.

i hope this clears things why i cannot coment on any hadiths, i have in some others, but came to realise that it is not my place to do so and will remember that in the future.

 

[Gharib]

Response: Right. If it's not the west way, it's not the best way according to the west.

exactly

Btw, I'm a he. Perhaps I should add a gender sign to my name as well

oops :sorry1:, sorry bro. i think the gender sign would be good.

 

[Fatihah]

Will there be an answer to this

Response: Muhammad has never stoned anyone. However, he has ordered for people to be stoned.

The stoning during the time of Muhammad was done from the taurat. The taurat is the revelation that was given to Moses. The prophet was allowed to continue to use the punishment from the taurat until the revelation of the qur'an specifically said that the punishment is now 100 lashes.

 

[Judgment]

Originally Posted by eselam
sister, how many animal species do you find ashamed of such acts? well the camel only, thats one. the people who are right are always low in numbers, just compare the camel to the rest of the animals.

Response: From my understanding, a pig will let you sleep with its mate. In every other animal society, either the animals are monogamist or the male is polygamist. (The lion pride) In the west, a pig is high on the food chain and there is a saying that you are what you eat.

well muslims aren't allowed to "think" for themseves, so ofcourse we won't become like that, look at the non muslims they "think" for them selves. so everyone is right, there is no wrong and there is no right in a western society.
once upon a time dogs were slaves know dogs are the masters and humans are the slaves. it all has to do with "evolution" and free thinking.

Reply to Eselam:

Response: Right. If it's not the west way, it's not the best way according to the west.

Btw, I'm a he. Perhaps I should add a gender sign to my name as well.

Untrue. It has nothing to do with the 'west's' way. It has to do with having an open mind and being able to judge what is happening around you.

And.. you agree with Eselam that Muslims are not allowed to 'think' for themselves... and humans are slaves to their dogs.?? That means that Muslims are slaves to their holy book - and their minds are shut closed. That means none of you will be able to look at it with any objectivity - none of you are able to think for yourselves.

 

[kai]

Response: How else did you learn about the honor killings and suicide bombers and all the other activities that goes on in muslim countries? It's not from the qur'an or sunnah. It's from the western media. Compare that to how many times they show anything good about islam in comparison. A clear conspiracy.

I heard about it on the news , how did you here about it? i meant the conspiracy where is it?