Muhammad The Greatest: A comparative study

[Imagist]

Response: This is from Tabari which is unauthentic. Are you saying that this hadith is true? If so, provide your evidence.

We don't have any evidence of Muhammed's behavior other than texts written near the time of Muhammed, so in a discussion of whether or not we should emulate Muhammed's behavior, it is reasonable to assume that these texts are true. If you have reason to believe that this particular text is more unreliable than the others, then please present it.

Otherwise, you must either accept that all such texts are unreliable (and therefore we cannot emulate Muhammed's behavior because we do not know how he behaved) or you must accept that all such texts are as reliable as we can get (and therefore it is just as likely that Muhammed had sex with a nine-year-old as anything else in the Hadiths).

 

[Imagist]

The muslim response to Tabari usually takes the form of denouncing it all as untrue because it does contain a lot of explicit stories about Muhammad that people today would view in a negative light.

However, there is no evidence that Tabari is any more inaccurate than any other Hadiths, so if they denounce Tabari, they must denounce all other similar ancient texts.

 

[England my lionheart]

True or false?

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64:

Narrated 'Ali:
Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."
If true does this make him of good character
​

 

[Kodanshi]

The ahadith, like I have previously stated paint a consistent picture of a jealously monotheistic man who liked a lot of sex, went to extraordinary lengths to satisfy this, perhaps at the start believed himself a messenger of god, but towards the end grew power–hungry. This seems to have stemmed from some of the bad treatment he experienced in Makkah, particularly when people cut him off, which caused illness and subsequent death of his first wife, Khadijah.

Whatever his reasons, if you truly read the ahadith, even in their original ‘Arabi if you have doubts, but translations serve as well, Muhammad clearly seems like a man of his times, and certainly nothing for people to emulate 1400 years later. Even his followers in the ahadith refer to new revelations as Muhammad forbidding this and that (not Allah), and one SAHIH (as in declared authentic through stringent methods) hadith even has someone declaring that they couldn’t chat openly with their wives because Muhammad would forbid them through some divine revelation. After his death they chatted freely with their wives. Check it out for yourself:

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 115:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
During the lifetime of the Prophet we used to avoid chatting leisurely and freely with our wives lest some Divine inspiration might be revealed concerning us. But when the Prophet had died, we started chatting leisurely and freely (with them).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[ProudMuslim]

There is the ancient text which I quoted and linked.

Yes there are many other ancient texts talking about the same issue. Would you like to read one of them?

Whether or not Muslims agree on the subject has nothing to do with whether it is true or not.

That is absurd comment. If Muslims themselves still debating an issue regarding the life of Muhammed (PBUH), non-Muslims have no place to jump in dictate which story is true and which is not!

Nobody said anything about defenseless people. I have already given an example of Muhammed waging a religious war: his attack on Mecca and removal of the statues which people worshiped.

Do you even know the story of Mecca? Read more about it and then decide yourself.

I do realize that the Quran was written by Muhammed. Just because someone wrote a book that people believe in doesn't mean those people have to imitate everything that person does/

Well if we are talking about 'The Secret' or The 'Kite Runner' then yes people will not imitate the writers of the book. But when the book here is considered a Holy and Divine Book delivered by a God through His Messenger i think its pretty much safe to say followers of that book will imitate the messenger, and the messenger himself will follow the words he is preaching as divine.

If Muhammed (PBUH) was living a life that contradicts Qur'an, he wouldn't be followed today by over a billion. He would've probably been killed and forgotten as the many hypocrites and liars of the history.

Do you have any basis for this confidence?

Yes the Qur'an and Hadiths. I am able to distinguish what is pure rubbish and what is a great message.

I can't presume to know what the prophet would do. Neither can you.

No, you can't. But i can, because i believe in him and his message.

Just because someone writes a code of behavior doesn't mean that person follows that code perfectly. I will write right now that it is generally wrong to lie, but I have lied during my lifetime. Likewise, Muhammed may have written about respecting life, but that doesn't mean he always respected life.

Well he was not an author or an ordinary human. We call him a Prophet for a reason.

As for writing something that you don't follow, please check the reply above i gave for a similar comment by you.

Furthermore, if we are to emulate the example set by the prophet, we must have some information about what the prophet did during his life, since without that we have no example to follow. What source of information about the prophet do we have other than the ancient texts written about him?

Well the Qur'an first since he worshipped the God he was delivering his message. But i will try to remove my belief and think with non-Muslim mentality. I agree ancient texts are good source, but which ones? There are many ancient texts talking about the same issue yet contradicting. Which ones are you choosing to believe? I will definitely go with texts that support the message in the Qur'an and will totally dismiss with confidence those that aren't.

We need not interpret the Quran through the lens of what Muhammed did. A person can do terrible things and yet still write a good book.

You are wrong. We need to interpret Quran through Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) because he was the founder of the legal/justice system of Islam. I have laredy mentioned above that he wouldnt have many followers today if he was violating his own preaching. But my question,if he was such a horrible person or a person who doesn't think twice before attacking and killing people why would he "write a good book", why would he deliver a great message in the Qur'an? I mean if he is going to have followers either way, why bother and write great book?

 

[Kodanshi]

He doesn’t. I used to buy all that propaganda too, and hearing it recited by someone with a good voice in its original ‘Arabi sure makes it sound mellifluous and beautiful, but the Qur’ân contains very little passages of worth or beauty. Entire tracts damning people to eternal hell and punishment end with a cry of allah as most–merciful, as though saying so would fool people into believing it.

Boiling water, for example, appears in it many times. However, it always appears in the context of punishment in an afterlife for non–believers (note: not for rapists or murderers, but those who simply disagreed with Muhammad and didn’t accept him as a prophet of allah). Not a single time does it mention anywhere that you can boil water to cure it of impurities. One simple line, and yet it only features boiling water as excruciating punishment. Despicable.

 

[Storm]

It is not clear whether or not Muhammed engaged in sexual relations with the girl, so we can't revile him for that with any certainty (although he does specifically mention fondling young virgins in another text). However, there is no question that she was too young to consent to a relationship with a man so much older, and this alone makes him a poor role model.

By whose standards?

 

[tumbleweed41]

As for religious wars? Please mention the wars that Muhammed (PBUH) waged for apparently no reason on defenseless people. Give me one example please.

You do realise that Qur'an was delivered to Muhammed, so following the Qur'an means also following the Prophet (PBUH). Both are i [FONT=&quot]nseparable. [/FONT]

1. And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. 8:59-60
2. Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. 8:65
3. It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. 8:67
4. Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. 9:5
5. If they ... assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief ... Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them. 9:12-14
6. O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. 9:73

4:91 Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.

 

[Fatihah]

If you read my posts, I have provided my own arguments. The links merely provide background information.

If you have any basis for your claim that the links contain faulty information, please provide it. Ancient texts are the best and only source we have about what Muhammed did during his life, so there's no choice but to take them seriously. As for the Wikipedia article, if you can provide a credible source which contradicts what is on the Wikipedia article, I'll be happy to change the information there myself.

Response: I only pay attention to the discussion you're having with me. I don't watch your every word with someone else. As for your conversation with me, you did not provide an argument. It was a statement with a link attached. Therefore you are using the link as apart of your argument. There is no need to do this. If you know what you know than say it. I can't have a discussion with a link. It doesn't talk back.

But if you insist on a link than that's your business. But the important question is whether or not the link is saying the truth and why you acknowledge it as the truth or reliable which can only be answered by you yourself. Not the link. So once again, is the link's information true? If so, provide the evidence to back up your claim.

 

[Fatihah]

Are you,how many Hadiths are there that are believed to be true by some but not by others,i have read many and as a non Muslim it does'nt make good reading.

Response: You haven't answered the question my friend. You quoted a hadith as an example of the character of Muhammad. Are you saying this hadith is true? If so, provide the evidence for your claim.

 

[England my lionheart]

It is apparent to me why many Muslims wish to discard the Hadiths because whether true or false they do not paint a very good picture of Muhammed,perhaps at the time of Muhammed stoning,torture,decapitating,treatment of Women,Apostates and slavery were common place but are not very relevant to todays society so perhaps Islam needs to modernise in some way

 

[Fatihah]

Neither, because they get stuck in my teeth. But I have eaten them in the past.

Response: O.K. Now if you were to read the ingredients of these candies, one of the ingredients is gelatin. Gelatin is the glutinous fat that comes from the flesh of meat when it's boiled. If you had no problem in eating this, why would there be a problem with camel's urine?

 

[Fatihah]

The idea that one can hold someone who had sex with a nine-year-old girl up as a model for behavior is appalling.

Response: I agree. The idea is appalling.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

That is absurd comment. If Muslims themselves still debating an issue regarding the life of Muhammed (PBUH), non-Muslims have no place to jump in dictate which story is true and which is not!

I believe you are right to some extent. Muslims should be able to define what they believe and how there religion should be taught.

At the same time in the west we pride ourselves on a hard core analysis of all ideas. This line is very hard to walk. It can create very hard feelings on both sides. This tension can help us to better understand our own faith and help us not to rewrite history to make it more comfortable to live with.

 

[Fatihah]

It is apparent to me why many Muslims wish to discard the Hadiths because whether true or false they do not paint a very good picture of Muhammed,perhaps at the time of Muhammed stoning,torture,decapitating,treatment of Women,Apostates and slavery were common place but are not very relevant to todays society so perhaps Islam needs to modernise in some way

Response: I disagree. A muslim disregards the hadiths because they find it difficult to explain. When they try to explain it, they come across people who are good in articulating an argument against the hadiths that either the attempt to try to explain it is discouraged or they are convinced that it is false and they themselves have rejected the hadiths.

There are also those who have never been explained the hadiths and when they are put on the spot to explain them, they don't have an answer and when finding the truth about hadiths, they don't discover any logical explanation to support them. This is why you may find different views about the hadiths because truth be told, many muslims don't have the knowledge about them. Without the knowledge, one will easily be discouraged from accepting them.

I myself never knew what a hadith was for a long time. Living in the US, it's not like there are schools for muslims all over the country like there is in muslim countries so the access to the knowledge of islam is scarce and a person would really have to search and find information.

 

[maro]

perhaps at the time of Muhammed stoning,torture,decapitating,treatment of Women,Apostates and slavery were common place but are not very relevant to todays society so perhaps Islam needs to modernise in some way

stonning and what you call torture are Punishments given only to criminals , they are part of a penal system..do you get it ?..so ,if you think youe secular penal system is better for the society..prove it with scientific statistics..can you ?

as for women ,Islam honoured women..this is what not4me ,peace ,FVM ,sajdah,me and all the other female muslim members of this forum agree upon...so why don't you keep your sympathy for yourself and let the muslim women talk for themselves..ha ?

As for slavery ,it was something deeply rooted in arabia..that's why islam worked on solving it gradually , just like it dealt with many other deeply rooted problems...drinking ,for example

 

[maro]

(and therefore it is just as likely that Muhammed had sex with a nine-year-old as anything else in the Hadiths).

we have already discussed this issue : http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/49875-muhammad-pedophile.html?highlight=pedophile

 

[Fatihah]

We don't have any evidence of Muhammed's behavior other than texts written near the time of Muhammed, so in a discussion of whether or not we should emulate Muhammed's behavior, it is reasonable to assume that these texts are true. If you have reason to believe that this particular text is more unreliable than the others, then please present it.

Otherwise, you must either accept that all such texts are unreliable (and therefore we cannot emulate Muhammed's behavior because we do not know how he behaved) or you must accept that all such texts are as reliable as we can get (and therefore it is just as likely that Muhammed had sex with a nine-year-old as anything else in the Hadiths).

Response: So just because something is written it is reasonable to assume that it's true? Well in the qur'an, it is written that Allah is the creator of life and everything in the universe. So why are you still an atheist since it's been written that Allah exists?

 

[maro]

Yes there are many other ancient texts talking about the same issue. Would you like to read one of them?

crap..there are no weak ahadith in al buhkari and muslim..they are all categorized as "Sahih "

 

[Fatihah]

True or false?

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64:

Narrated 'Ali:
Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."
If true does this make him of good character
​

Response: True. This is an example of good character.