Muhammad The Greatest: A comparative study

[Kodanshi]

Click on the links. They take you to the exact spot you find those ahadith. Online even! How wonderful this kaffir’s internet, what?

 

[tumbleweed41]

I do have to admit, the Quran is less violent and bloodthirsty than the Old Testament. The problem lies in the interpretation, violence espoused by some Muslims in the name of Allah seems to be more of a matter of interpretations suiting the actions.

(Thanks to the OP and other for directing me to read the Quran today, it is easier to understand a belief if you read their scripture.)

As to the OP, I still do not think Mohamed was the greatest, but that is due more to my disbelief in "Relieved Revelation" than to his actual life. Disputed as it is.

 

[Alla Prima]

Muslims get upset because they know that all the criticisms of their religion and their prophet are true. We don't defame Islam. Islam defames Islam. Muhammad defamed himself.

 

[Alla Prima]

Response: None of the verses you quoted from the qur'an say that Muhammad started any war. In each verse that you quoted, the context attached to it shows that Muhammad as well as all muslims are to defend themselves and the verses are talking about self defense. So why is it wrong for someone to defend themself?

There was no end of Muhammad's defense of his tyrannical ideology. To even criticize Islam was an attack on Islam. There are two houses of Islam. Dar-el-Islam and Dar-el-harb. The house of Islam and the house of war.

 

[Gharib]

During his life, Muhammed attacked Meccan and Bedouin caravans and eventually invaded the city of Mecca, where he forcibly removed the statues which the people worshiped. In addition, his teachings set the stage for the conquest of Arabia, Persia, and Northern Africa.

well first of all can you please tell me what made him leave mecca. i mean why would he want to go there anyway for no reason if he left from there.

 

[Gharib]

Nobody said anything about defenseless people. I have already given an example of Muhammed waging a religious war: his attack on Mecca and removal of the statues which people worshiped.

you do know that when one army conquers the land of another, traditions, culture.......etc. are all destroyed. didn't the english destroy the culture of the native americans,they destroyed everything even almost made the race extinct. so thats just natural if a non muslim does it but when a muslim does it, heck hes a muslim who gave him the right.

 

[Gharib]

This guy is supposed to have been the mouthpiece of the one and only omniscient god. If Muhammed is giving out medicinal advice that by modern standards is ridiculous, isn't it possible that the same could be said for his religious and ethical advice?

did you know that it is rediculous to the cave man that meat is eaten after it is cooked. we are offending or ancestors. lets eat meat uncooked.

 

[kai]

I think mohamed was a master politician ,and inovative general, he united the Arabs which led to mighty empires that lasted for centuries.

one of the Historical greats yes.

 

[Gharib]

perhaps at the time of Muhammed stoning,torture,decapitating,treatment of Women,Apostates and slavery were common place but are not very relevant to todays society so perhaps Islam needs to modernise in some way

lets talk about modernisation for a bit.

the US is considered as the most advanced non muslim nation in the world right?\

so how modern do these words sound to you;
leethal injection, electrocution, crucifixtion, flaying, shooting (I don't soppose muslims came up with this) or these images


A condemned prisoner being dismembered by an elephant in Ceylon. Drawing from An Historical Relation of the Island Ceylon by Robert Knox (1681)



Execution with a Garrote



these are the links for you;

Capital punishment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Capital punishment in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Capital punishment in the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Gharib]

You said Muhammad did not start or lead any unjustified wars, then you yourself tied the Quran and Muhammad together.
So, if the Quran leads Muslims to kill the unbeliever, are they led by Muhammad?

do you even understand those verses or you just had a quick look to dissprove us muslims.

those verses talk about war times, no one has given me a right to kill a non muslim, and no one has given you a right to kill a muslim, but when your country and mine are at war, well will you great me if you see me or will you be feeding me bullets in my head. think about it.

 

[Gharib]

2 Satan farts every time someone gives the call to prayer

the satan falls to his knees everytime it hears the call to prayer, it's his weak point or cryptonite, look at this, but i must warn you, don't be affraid.

YouTube - SHOCKING JIN GHOST VIDEO!!!!!! exorcism in ISLAM!!!!!!!!

 

[England my lionheart]

It is from my humble studies that after analyzing the sunnah (legal ways of the prophet Muhammad) that I've come to realize that islam views the example of character we find in the sunnah to be the one of the best examples of character for people to follow.

But I've also come to learn that not only do many people disagree and say that he is not the best example of character but say that he is one of the worst, if not the worst example of character. So my simple question is why do people see Muhammad in such a negative way? Is Muhammad the best example of character? Let's have a dialogue.

I think for the era in which he lived he was a major player,first he used the Arab love of booty by the invent of Islam which after gaining success and followers plagiarised the books of the Bible and ancient texts and hey presto Islam was off and running.
I certainly do not believe he was illiterate but using the illiteracy to prove the authenticity of the Quran was a master stroke because it was a miracle when he became literate.
When we look at the Quran,Sunna and Hadiths (if it can be agreed which are true)from an outside view it is easy to understand why there are such things as the Taleban,Al Aqsa martyrs,Hamas,Hizbollah etc,the other day in another thread three different Muslims had three different opinions on just one Hadith ie whether it was true or false and what it meant and the ambiguous writings are many fold.

 

[Gharib]

I certainly do not believe he was illiterate

well England, you can deny the truth, thats a classic.

but using the illiteracy to prove the authenticity of the Quran was a master stroke because it was a miracle when he became literate.

and just how did he do that? was it a devine isnpiration, or just a hoax that was hidden from everyone untill he fooled the arabs and soon the whole world, then whala i can read again. come on England, listen to your self. you know i wonder some times, is it the muslims who know more about Muhammed (saws) or the non muslims, i can't figure it out. many times muslims are called "narrow minded" we do not accept facts or the truth, so know i'm sure the muslims are the "narrow minded" again right

the other day in another thread three different Muslims had three different opinions on just one Hadith ie whether it was true or false and what it meant and the ambiguous writings are many fold

yes one of those people was me, i'm surprised it hasn't appeared in the BBC yet. didn't i say though before the discussion of that hadith that it is the scholars who study the quran, hadith and sunnah of the prophet that can comment on a hadith. you can make one up right know, i can have a go at it but the only saying that counts is that of a scholar. now i can dissagree with many things my brothers and sisters say about islam, one reason being lack of knowledge, second we haven't been tought the same things (someone may have scholars to learn from and some may have their own mind (ie, only read and not being able to ask questions)) because there are people who wright false hadiths to confuse the muslim people. it's that simple. it doesn't get any harder.

we can even try it with christianity if you wish;
who was Jesus. you give me your perspective and i will give mine. we both know about him, you don't know more than me and i don't know more than you.

 

[Fatihah]

I think for the era in which he lived he was a major player,first he used the Arab love of booty by the invent of Islam which after gaining success and followers plagiarised the books of the Bible and ancient texts and hey presto Islam was off and running.
I certainly do not believe he was illiterate but using the illiteracy to prove the authenticity of the Quran was a master stroke because it was a miracle when he became literate.
When we look at the Quran,Sunna and Hadiths (if it can be agreed which are true)from an outside view it is easy to understand why there are such things as the Taleban,Al Aqsa martyrs,Hamas,Hizbollah etc,the other day in another thread three different Muslims had three different opinions on just one Hadith ie whether it was true or false and what it meant and the ambiguous writings are many fold.

Response: Now you have just said a few things about your understanding and beliefs of Muhammad. Fine. You are entitled to your opinion. But my question and the whole purpose of this thread is to understand why? Why do you believe these things about prophet Muhammad? (Pbuh) What evidence have you come across that has convinced you to choose to believe that he was literate rather than illiterate? Or how his arab love for booty and plagiarism of the Bible was the cause that invented islam rather than islam being a revelation to him? This is the question. Why do you believe these things and what evidence have you come across that has convinced you to believe in what you believe?

As for the different understandings of hadith, let me say this to you. You love your mother right? Hoping and assuming you do, would you say that she is a good person?
Again, hoping and assuming your answer is yes, I and a bunch of my friends disagree with you and say that she is anything but that. (A good woman) Clearly we are in disagreement. So does this disagreement invalidate the goodness of your mother? Would you no longer accept the idea that your mother is a good woman simply because people don't agree with it?

The point I'm trying to make is that evidence should not be based on whether a person agreed to it but whether or not it's true right?

Finally, Allah (swt) has revealed in the qur'an a verse concerning this. In ch.3:7 of the qur'an we read "He it is who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning-they are the basis of the Book-and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking interpretation of it. And none knows its interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, 'We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.'- And none take heed except those gifted in understanding."

So the chances of people having different interpretations is bound to happen. But the verse goes on to say that only those who are gifted in knowledge know its true meaning and not every muslim is a scholar so not all muslims will know its true meaning. It also draws our attention to those different interpretaions because from them you can determine the heart and true intent of a person from their interpretation.

 

[Fatihah]

There was no end of Muhammad's defense of his tyrannical ideology. To even criticize Islam was an attack on Islam. There are two houses of Islam. Dar-el-Islam and Dar-el-harb. The house of Islam and the house of war.

Response: I'm reading a statement. Where's the proof?

 

[England my lionheart]

well England, you can deny the truth, thats a classic.



and just how did he do that? was it a devine isnpiration, or just a hoax that was hidden from everyone untill he fooled the arabs and soon the whole world, then whala i can read again. come on England, listen to your self. you know i wonder some times, is it the muslims who know more about Muhammed (saws) or the non muslims, i can't figure it out. many times muslims are called "narrow minded" we do not accept facts or the truth, so know i'm sure the muslims are the "narrow minded" again right



yes one of those people was me, i'm surprised it hasn't appeared in the BBC yet. didn't i say though before the discussion of that hadith that it is the scholars who study the quran, hadith and sunnah of the prophet that can comment on a hadith. you can make one up right know, i can have a go at it but the only saying that counts is that of a scholar. now i can dissagree with many things my brothers and sisters say about islam, one reason being lack of knowledge, second we haven't been tought the same things (someone may have scholars to learn from and some may have their own mind (ie, only read and not being able to ask questions)) because there are people who wright false hadiths to confuse the muslim people. it's that simple. it doesn't get any harder.

we can even try it with christianity if you wish;
who was Jesus. you give me your perspective and i will give mine. we both know about him, you don't know more than me and i don't know more than you.

Christianity,Judaism and Islam were all devised by Men IMO,Christianity now has little resemblance to when it began and apart from some extreme branches has moved on,Islam and Judaism have'nt moved on,that apart Judaism is no threat to me or my country but Islam is.
Last month in Turkey a bunch of scolars and clerics of Islam called for Jihad,now to you it means personal struggle but to them it means kill the Infidel and people of the book because some of them want to bring the end time forward ASAP and what scholar thought up the Taleban.
I can only give my opinion as an outsider and can only comprehend what i read and hear and what i read and hear about Muhammed does'nt endere him to me.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: Now you have just said a few things about your understanding and beliefs of Muhammad. Fine. You are entitled to your opinion. But my question and the whole purpose of this thread is to understand why? Why do you believe these things about prophet Muhammad? (Pbuh) What evidence have you come across that has convinced you to choose to believe that he was literate rather than illiterate? Or how his arab love for booty and plagiarism of the Bible was the cause that invented islam rather than islam being a revelation to him? This is the question. Why do you believe these things and what evidence have you come across that has convinced you to believe in what you believe?

As for the different understandings of hadith, let me say this to you. You love your mother right? Hoping and assuming you do, would you say that she is a good person?
Again, hoping and assuming your answer is yes, I and a bunch of my friends disagree with you and say that she is anything but that. (A good woman) Clearly we are in disagreement. So does this disagreement invalidate the goodness of your mother? Would you no longer accept the idea that your mother is a good woman simply because people don't agree with it?

The point I'm trying to make is that evidence should not be based on whether a person agreed to it but whether or not it's true right?

Finally, Allah (swt) has revealed in the qur'an a verse concerning this. In ch.3:7 of the qur'an we read "He it is who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning-they are the basis of the Book-and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking interpretation of it. And none knows its interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, 'We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.'- And none take heed except those gifted in understanding."

So the chances of people having different interpretations is bound to happen. But the verse goes on to say that only those who are gifted in knowledge know its true meaning and not every muslim is a scholar so not all muslims will know its true meaning. It also draws our attention to those different interpretaions because from them you can determine the heart and true intent of a person from their interpretation.

I believe these things because i have read many Hadiths and had conversations with Muslims in the course of my work,i ask questions and listen to what they have to say.
As for all Muslims not being scholars ok i understand that but how about the scolars that run Iran,Saudi etc so even scholars get it wrong so if scholars are getting it wrong who is giving them the false information or is it as i said the ambiguous nature of Haiths.

 

[Kodanshi]

Response: My friend, why are you making me do your homework for you? It is you who posted claims of certain things mentioned in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim and instead of posting where in the collection these things are stated you've provided links suggesting that I do it myself. Why can't you post them yourself? If you were able to post the claims you made by simply typing it in a post without links why can't you do the same for where exactly these claims are mentioned without links?

Talk about lazy! I mentioned already you need only to click on the links to go to the actual hadith in question. But here, let me do it all for you. Would you like me to type out the ahadith themselves as well?!

Sahih Bukhari:

Satan lives in your nose while you sleep. 004.054.516

Satan ‘relieves’ himself in your ears while you sleep. 004.054.492

Satan farts every time someone calls adhaan 001.011.582

Muhammad’s mole on his back consists of the actual ‘seal’ of prophets 001.004.189

A tale about Hell which shows a woeful grasp of the earth’s rotation around the sun affecting weather 004.054.482

Muhammad bewitched 1 008.075.400

and

Muhammad Bewitched 2 004.053.400


Sahih Muslim:

That anyone who takes up archery and stops practising it has, in effect, apostated from Islâm. 020.4714

Muhammad strikes ‘Aishah. 004.2127

 

[Imagist]

Yes there are many other ancient texts talking about the same issue. Would you like to read one of them?

That's a lot of speculation. Some specific nonsense there:

f Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.

This is obviously silly and amounts to an assumption that Aisha's father wouldn't have married her off young. Given that the accusation is that he married her off at age nine, this argument isn't compelling.

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was thirty-five years old, meaning Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus twelve when Muhammad married at fifty-two.

This is only minimally better than marrying a nine-year-old.

So if it was not allowed to participate in Uhud for people younger than 15, then Aisha would be atleast 15 in those battles, making her age atleast 13 to 14 at the time of marriage.

It's not unreasonable to believe that Muhammed would make exceptions for his wife.

That is absurd comment. If Muslims themselves still debating an issue regarding the life of Muhammed (PBUH), non-Muslims have no place to jump in dictate which story is true and which is not!

Just because you feel fondly for this guy doesn't give you an exclusive right to history.

Do you even know the story of Mecca? Read more about it and then decide yourself.

So your defense of Muhammed is that he claimed a neighboring city as a holy place, and this justifies him attacking its people and destroying their temples?

For comparison, how would you like it if Christians suddenly decided that Mecca was their holy place, and decided to attack it and burn all the mosques?

Well if we are talking about 'The Secret' or The 'Kite Runner' then yes people will not imitate the writers of the book. But when the book here is considered a Holy and Divine Book delivered by a God through His Messenger i think its pretty much safe to say followers of that book will imitate the messenger, and the messenger himself will follow the words he is preaching as divine.

I never said anything about what people will or will not do. What I said was that people don't have to emulate Muhammed.

If Muhammed (PBUH) was living a life that contradicts Qur'an, he wouldn't be followed today by over a billion. He would've probably been killed and forgotten as the many hypocrites and liars of the history.

People all over the world follow corrupt and hypocritical leaders. The argument that such leaders will inevitably be killed and forgotten is obviously false.

Yes the Qur'an and Hadiths. I am able to distinguish what is pure rubbish and what is a great message.

My evidence was taken directly from the Hadiths.

No, you can't. But i can, because i believe in him and his message.

Again, just because you like the guy doesn't give you an exclusive right to logical thought.

Well he was not an author or an ordinary human. We call him a Prophet for a reason.

Ordinary or not, even Muhammed didn't claim perfection. According to him, only Allah can be perfect.

As for writing something that you don't follow, please check the reply above i gave for a similar comment by you.

Which one?

Well the Qur'an first since he worshipped the God he was delivering his message. But i will try to remove my belief and think with non-Muslim mentality. I agree ancient texts are good source, but which ones? There are many ancient texts talking about the same issue yet contradicting. Which ones are you choosing to believe? I will definitely go with texts that support the message in the Qur'an and will totally dismiss with confidence those that aren't.

So you openly admit to picking and choosing texts that say what you like? Sorry, but that's not how evidence works. Unless you have evidence to show that a source is unreliable or illogical, it can't be discounted. "I don't like this" is not evidence. Basically, you have just admitted that you are biased and can't think logically on the subject.

You are wrong. We need to interpret Quran through Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) because he was the founder of the legal/justice system of Islam. I have laredy mentioned above that he wouldnt have many followers today if he was violating his own preaching. But my question,if he was such a horrible person or a person who doesn't think twice before attacking and killing people why would he "write a good book", why would he deliver a great message in the Qur'an? I mean if he is going to have followers either way, why bother and write great book?

Because, like most people, he's not all good or all evil. A person can do both good and evil in one's lifetime.

 

[Imagist]

By whose standards?

Under no reasonable standard of ethics is it not wrong for a man in his forties to have sex with a nine-year-old girl.